Flying at 10k, 12k or maybe 14k with young children

Everskyward said:
Yeahbut many people who go to Pikes Peak are tourists. I was there with my cousin and her husband who live in the Bay Area (California) and they had only been in Colorado a couple days.

Granted, that probably wouldn't be the case for school outings.
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You'd be amazed how much you can acclimatize in a couple of days. As was pointed out by Azure it is all about the relative altitude increase compared to what you are acclimatized to. Somebody from Quito (including children) would not even notice the altitude on Pike's Peak because they live all year round their whole lives over 10,000 ft. Base Camp on Everest is over 18,000 feet. People who are healthy fully acclimatize to living there after a couple of weeks and then move on to the higher camps.

Sure you can take your kids up there from sea level in one shot. They may have headaches, be irritable, maybe nauseous. So what right? It's legal. I'm saying just don't assume with kids. Try 10k first and see how that goes.
 
narchee said:
You'd be amazed how much you can acclimatize in a couple of days. As was pointed out by Azure it is all about the relative altitude increase compared to what you are acclimatized to. Somebody from Quito (including children) would not even notice the altitude on Pike's Peak because they live all year round their whole lives over 10,000 ft. Base Camp on Everest is over 18,000 feet. People who are healthy fully acclimatize to living there after a couple of weeks and then move on to the higher camps.

Sure you can take your kids up there from sea level in one shot. They may have headaches, be irritable, maybe nauseous. So what right? It's legal. I'm saying just don't assume with kids. Try 10k first and see how that goes.
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I'm saying that I don't think kids are different than anyone else. Some people may be more sensitive to altitude than others. Obviously people who live at altitude are more acclimatized.
 
narchee said:
Maybe you're right. :dunno:

Check out this disturbing little study though...

http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(12)01025-6/abstract

Hey, wait a second, I grew up at high altitude too! Maybe this explains things :lol:
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That's mostly behind a paywall but growing up at altitude is different than spending an hour or two there. And you could definitely say they were acclimatized to it.

To answer the question about O2, there is some at the summit. There are also warnings about the altitude but they are aimed at people with heart and lung conditions. That could include children, but those conditions mostly affect older people.

Oh and I grew up at sea level but I toasted my brain cells by living at altitude for the past 30+ years.
 
txflyer said:
There shouldn't be a problem ... I routinely fly at 9500 to West Texas and no O2. Never feel anything ... 14K might start a 'tingle' of the senses.

+1 it's the letdown that can get non-pilots in trouble.

Keep the f.p.m. 500 or under down. If anyone starts complaining, shallow up.
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Be careful….

The first symptom of mild hypoxia is that you feel pretty good even as you get impaired. Before you say you're fine up to 14,000, you should have someone else on oxygen watch you as you get asked to do common tasks like calculate a descent point. I think you may be very unpleasantly surprised.

I work with astronomers, many of whom have spent a lot of time working at 13,000 feet and above. That kind of altitude makes people stupid. One guy has a story about struggling for 10 minutes at Keck, tightening a screw to the left.

I don't know if it's technically intoxication, but it's a lot like it. When lightly impaired, you feel pretty good and don't really know it. When severely impaired, there is no doubt, but you're also completely useless.
 
Don't go by internet anecdotes, just go by measured blood oxygen saturations. Get a $40 fingertip pulse oximeter :yes: and just measure them - and yourself. Keep your sats > 90% and you/they are fine. It matters not whether they are on supplemental o2 or not as long as their sats are not below 90 and their respiration rate isn't excessively high (you'll know). They may dip into the 80s once in a while but as long as they are mainly in the 90s they're doing well.

Here's my internet anecdote FWIW:

We live at 6,000 feet and I fly at 11 & 12k with my kids off oxygen but we monitor their O2 sats. If they fall below 90 we put them on O2. We have individual flow meters for each O2 rig so we can dial the flow rate back to whatever achieves about 90% O2 most of the time. When the PIC is required to go on supplemental O2 usually everyone goes on.

No one here uses O2 at 8000 feet because ground elevation is 5,000 to 7,000' at most Colorado airports with the mountain ones even higher. But then we are not living at sea level either.

My youngest was 3.8 years old when he started flying. We had hell getting him to wear a cannula but we could do it eventually. We had to make sure their noses were clear (so a kid really needs to be old enough to blow his/her nose to use a cannula).

As he grew up he became cool with it - and turbulence. Now he is 6.5 yrs old and his brother is 9 - they sit back there with their cannulas watching movies on their ipads or iphones. But usually I cruise at 11 or 12k IFR and occasionally go up as high as FL200 to get above turb or just to haul ass. We breathe a LOT of oxygen, even with the flow meters, when we go up that high. But at 14-16k we do OK with the supply available in the factory TR182 system. What I really need is an on-demand system which would reduce O2 waste by a bunch.
 
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txflyer said:
Didn't I read somewhere that smokers actually take altitude better than non-smokers?

Not that it will make me start smoking, but I thought I read that somewhere ...
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Anecdotal experience only:

I only recently quit smoking (well, gone vapor anyways), but I had terrible trouble at higher altitude compared to non-smokers I'd fly with. Since quitting a few weeks ago, I'm already handling it a lot better.
 
MAKG1 said:
Be careful….

The first symptom of mild hypoxia is that you feel pretty good even as you get impaired. Before you say you're fine up to 14,000, you should have someone else on oxygen watch you as you get asked to do common tasks like calculate a descent point. I think you may be very unpleasantly surprised.

I work with astronomers, many of whom have spent a lot of time working at 13,000 feet and above. That kind of altitude makes people stupid. One guy has a story about struggling for 10 minutes at Keck, tightening a screw to the left.

I don't know if it's technically intoxication, but it's a lot like it. When lightly impaired, you feel pretty good and don't really know it. When severely impaired, there is no doubt, but you're also completely useless.
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Noted.

You're not supposed to fly over 30 minutes above 12.5 without it. I should have said that.

FL 014 I'd only go there without 02 if it were a safety issue which I can't imagine and I wouldn't lolligag around up there.... :redface:
 
mkosmo said:
Anecdotal experience only:

I only recently quit smoking (well, gone vapor anyways), but I had terrible trouble at higher altitude compared to non-smokers I'd fly with. Since quitting a few weeks ago, I'm already handling it a lot better.
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Super! Keep it up.

I don't know much about it, but from what I've read I think the e-cigs are a much healthier alternative.

Your bod and my tax/premium money thanks you... ;)
 
txflyer said:
Noted.

You're not supposed to fly over 30 minutes above 12.5 without it. I should have said that.

FL 014 I'd only go there without 02 if it were a safety issue which I can't imagine and I wouldn't lolligag around up there.... :redface:
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That's the reg.

You may find yourself mildly impaired at much lower altitudes, especially if you're climbing from sea level.

Crossing a 10,000 foot pass (and there are A LOT of those) can require a 15 minute passage at 14,000 if the wind is blowing. 20 knots at 12,000 can be done marginally, but with probable moderate turbulence and a lot of attention to the terrain to avoid sink. Very unpleasant.
 
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