Flying and Guns

[DaleB]

I spent a relatively long time sitting here trying to think of a non-condescending way to say this, and I have to say I was unable to figure out a way that didn't have me sounding like an ass.

I think what it comes down to is some people don't handle their weapons often enough to be able to safely or comfortably adjust their weapon to the changing threat levels they experience. I get that. And for those people, if they can't or won't get recurring experience and training, then they should either stop carrying or do as has been said in this thread: keep the weapon in it's holster and don't touch it unless/until it is needed.

You don't sound like an ass, just like someone who has had training and experience in a very limited environment, governed by strict rules set forth by higher-ups. That experience and training, while valuable and applicable in your situation, does not necessarily apply directly to carrying a weapon in different circumstances.

 

[WBI Flyer]

^^What bqmassey said. Though we stand the chance of logic-ing ourselves to death. I have been thinking this as I watched this thread unfold. Everyone has a right to do as they are comfortable, and I am for each of us getting adequate training and doing what we think is right. As far as military SOP, the military has felt obligated to relegate to the lowest performing denominator in order to minimize NDs. Think "mil spec". Depending on what you are talking about, it could be great, or it could be the cheapest, "just good enough" solution. There's nothing wrong with it, we just have to see it for what it is.

I could easily say that if anyone is not competent to carry their sidearm in condition 1 (hammer action) or 0 (striker fired) safely in one specific scenario or another, I would not want them to carry around me in any scenario, period. 4 rules of gun safety. Flying or not. Burning car/plane/house or not. Stored or not. 4 simple rules. (Acknowledged: Burning wreckage and a dislodged body (thus the firearm, in holster, pointing somewhere unsafe) could cause a uncontrolled cook-off.)

Long guns are usually employed for known threats, and thus the norm would be to "carry" mag loaded, chamber empty, safety off, hammer down when outside of a known-threat area. Sidearms are either: a) backup.. for immediate deployment at failure of primary - condition 1 or 0. Or b) for immediate deployment against previously unknown threats. Condition 1 or 0.

If you need a sidearm for self-defense (on the ramp? During taxi?), it will all happen very fast, and half-seconds will be precious. If you take the time to find or load your weapon ready in a confined space, you either a) become a victim, or b) had time to avoid or evade (your best first options).
Also, if you haven't trained to safely and effectively deploy said weapon in the tiny, sight-line restricted confines of an airplane, that might be something you find time to do.... And when you do, use a blue-Gun or a safety barrel insert or something...

I can tell you that, were I a person to carry a sidearm, I would be absolute in my proficiency with clearing a weapon safely, and under no circumstances would that proficiency allow me to blindly declare that there is no increased risk when my weapon clears it's holster and exhibits an exposed trigger. I wouldn't clear in close proximity to others, and I wouldn't clear in public unless absolutely, absolutely necessary. If the risk of fire and a cook-off is enough to warrant that for you, then create a safe place to clear your weapon in the hangar, and do it in that spot every time. Please don't clear a weapon in a confined space... while your body is contorted in a weird shape.... not to mention the cost of repairs should you do what many, many have done while clearing their weapons (while not focused on the task at a hand).

 

[Everskyward]

This whole thread is a moot point unless you are willing to put your passengers or other pilots through a metal detector or a pat-down, not only to get in the airplane but also your car or your house or...

I know many people who carry. I have no idea about the state of their firearm. I don't care one way or another, but even if I did there wouldn't be a whole lot I could do about it.

 

[bullwinkle]

One of the most significant threats last year to soldiers in Afghanistan was inside the wire green-on-blue attacks. Soldiers being shot by our Afghan partners in these so-called safe areas where they eat and sleep. Contrary to what you may believe, there are many small bases over here where all that razor wire and all those armed guards you speak of are literally just a few feet away from the cots and tents we sleep in. Many of these armed guards are Afghans. I'm very familiar with the need to look over my shoulder. And I'm very familiar with knowing that anyone that wants to can put their hands on me at any time while I sleep in my fabric tent. No home invasion needed - all you need to get through my walls is a sharp knife, or just toss a grenade or spray-and-pray with an AK47.

Agreed...so you should be sleeping with a round chambered. The only reason you don't is some general or politician has decided you may not. That you argue all these threats to your safety require less ready access to a defensive response seems...counter-intuitive.

 

[bullwinkle]

I spent a relatively long time sitting here trying to think of a non-condescending way to say this, and I have to say I was unable to figure out a way that didn't have me sounding like an ass.

I think what it comes down to is some people don't handle their weapons often enough to be able to safely or comfortably adjust their weapon to the changing threat levels they experience. I get that. And for those people, if they can't or won't get recurring experience and training, then they should either stop carrying or do as has been said in this thread: keep the weapon in it's holster and don't touch it unless/until it is needed.

You've failed, you sound condescending and like an ass. You changed the debate from what is safest to "if you don't do it my way you are clearly too stupid/inexperienced/dangerous to be trusted with firearms."

It has nothing to do with inadequate training. It has to do with what makes the most sense from a safety perspective. I contend that it's safest to not fiddle with a firearm unless you need it or need to do maintenance on it, you contend it's safer to fiddle with it and make it "safer" periodically.

Both of those points can be argued rationally without resorting to oblique attacks on others' competence.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Leave the pistols holstered and fly one of these(that was legal once.) Bonus fun points for being a taildragger on skis.

 

[DaleB]

You've failed, you sound condescending and like an ass. You changed the debate from what is safest to "if you don't do it my way you are clearly too stupid/inexperienced/dangerous to be trusted with firearms."

Give him a break... when I was his age I thought I knew everything, too.

 

[bullwinkle]

I'm disappointed that Cap'n'Ron has taken a beating for saying that no one will fly with him with one in the chamber. Seems like it's his right to make that call.

As one of the vocal "nothing wrong with a round in the chamber folks" let me clarify what I have already said: Ron has a right to set any rules he wants for his airplane, and I respect them. What I took issue to was him saying it's "dumb" to have a different standard, regardless of the rationality of the arguments.

I have seen how fast things can go from placid to "**** Hits the Fan", and I choose to have my firearms ready for that. That doesn't make me dumb, a Hillbilly, a gun fingerf@cker, or any other term of endearment you care to put on me.

Once again, thirty years, no accidents. Not luck.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

Give him a break... when I was his age I thought I knew everything, too.

I'm 54. I know a lot less now than I used to.

I consider myself very fortunate to have the experiences I've had at the times of my life when I had them. Was active duty air force when I was young, spend 15 years working my way up the corporate ladder at AT&T, went in to 911 systems engineering, went back in to military when my sons joined - only this time I went Army combat engineer doing Counter IED missions (detection and defeat) so that I could do what my oldest son was doing (which sent me through Army basic training at the ripe age of 46), and now I'm branching off in to what I love - supporting ground troops, looking for the bad guys, in an aviation-related job.

I honestly try to not get sucked in to the typical internet trap of flame wars. Which is why I've recently opted out of the SZ and added No Joy to my ignore list. But I'm a normal red-blooded male, and I'm not always able to be as courteous as I want. My post at the top of this page reflects an honest attempt at a reasoned no-incindiary opinion. It's about as neutral as I can make it.

I believe weapons are a lot like aircraft, in that after all is said and done, the person holding the weapon is the final authority on how it is used. The use and care of the weapon should be approached with a level head, free of bravado and bluster, with a mind always open to improving and cognizant that there may be holes in our training assumptions or practices that we aren't aware of. Myself included. And I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Alexb2000]

Just a point, a lot of this conversation is around automatic pistols.

Any loaded revolver is going to have one in the pipe. Of course you can walk around with it unloaded, or try to down load to 5 or whatever, but that really isn't realistic for a carry gun.

 

[Doggtyred]

I was wondering if it is an issue or a non-issue when I throw a shotgun, a couple of pistols and maybe a hunting rifle or AR-15 in the back of the plane and fly up to the ranch?

If I'm ever ramp checked, should I know anything special, or expect any hassle out of the inspector about the guns? Thanks in advance.

In Texas you are "traveling" so no biggie on the pistols.. the rifles/shotguns you can carry on you any time and dang near anywhere...

My CHL from Texas is valid in all the states I flew to GA, so I had my pistol with me at all times. Never expected trouble from the airport crowd, but you never know what things are like outside the fence. Just made sure I never went onto the Air Carrier ramp..

 

[Doggtyred]

Please explain to me the emergency which would require you use your Glock that fast in your airplane in flight.

Ok. so.. get on the ground.. its dark, poorly lit.. cant see if someone is near my car or not.... Do I unconceal, rack the slide, put it back in my holster and refuel the plane or do my business? And then before I leave in the plane again, unholster, drop the mag, clear the chamber, drop the hammer, pick up the round I just lost in the dark and put it back in the mag, then reload the mag ?

No. My weapon is chambered and holstered from the time I leave the house until the time I come back home. I dont take it out of the holster 5-10 times a day to load and unload it willy nilly because I may not have a need for it to be loaded during THAT PARTICULAR hour or collection of minutes.

Pulling it out makes the anti gun nuts very nervous, gets the cops called and tips your hand in keeping it concealed. Pulling it out and messing with it is how lesser trained individuals HAVE accidental discharge and negligent discharges. The last thing you want them doing is handling it before and after...

And by not engaging in a silly ritual of unloading it half the time, I dont have to worry if its unloaded when I might have need for it in a hurry, and I've been in that kind of a hurry exactly twice in twenty years.

If you need to know my gun is unloaded, I will drop the mag, lock the slide open and let you see it.

If.....

 

[Unbeliever]

In the practical world, Ron is not going to know if his passenger is carrying. Unless it is in one of the states where open carry is legal, most places in the US will require the firearm owner to carry concealed.

And for every concealed carry person I know "concealed" means concealed. They take care not to print through clothing, they don't futz with it, they don't mention it, and they won't acknowledge it unless you are a LEO presenting credentials and asking the direct question.

Ron can ask them "are you carrying" and they will say "no", and he won't know any better unless he does a full pat-down.

--Carlos V.

 

[denverpilot]

Just a point, a lot of this conversation is around automatic pistols.

Any loaded revolver is going to have one in the pipe. Of course you can walk around with it unloaded, or try to down load to 5 or whatever, but that really isn't realistic for a carry gun.

Actually someone already mentioned revolvers that don't have a trigger block bar or other pin-covering mechanism, and the people carrying those types often do download by one so the hammer is sitting on an empty chamber.

First double action trigger pull (common in self defense scenarios) or manually cocking the hammer for single action (not common in self defense scenarios) rotates to the next (loaded) chamber.

It's pretty commonly done, but not many folks carry that style of pistol. All depends on the design of the particular pistol and whether you trust it if dropped on the hammer. And it's plenty "realistic".

Some people buy hammerless versions to alleviate their perceived issues with hammers getting caught on things or whatever, also... Or have them filed off or significantly bobbed.

 

[SoloEqs]

Just a point, a lot of this conversation is around automatic pistols.

Any loaded revolver is going to have one in the pipe. Of course you can walk around with it unloaded, or try to down load to 5 or whatever, but that really isn't realistic for a carry gun.

When I carried a wheelgun for social purposes, I had 5 rounds loaded. With the single-action, the empty chamber was under the hammer. With the .357, the empty was the first one to come up if the trigger was pulled (double-action), just in case it was ever in someone else's hands.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

When I carried a wheelgun for social purposes, I had 5 rounds loaded. With the single-action, the empty chamber was under the hammer. With the .357, the empty was the first one to come up if the trigger was pulled (double-action), just in case it was ever in someone else's hands.

This is how I taught my wife to keep her pistol.

 

[Alexb2000]

Actually someone already mentioned revolvers that don't have a trigger block bar or other pin-covering mechanism, and the people carrying those types often do download by one so the hammer is sitting on an empty chamber.

First double action trigger pull (common in self defense scenarios) or manually cocking the hammer for single action (not common in self defense scenarios) rotates to the next (loaded) chamber.

It's pretty commonly done, but not many folks carry that style of pistol. All depends on the design of the particular pistol and whether you trust it if dropped on the hammer. And it's plenty "realistic".

Some people buy hammerless versions to alleviate their perceived issues with hammers getting caught on things or whatever, also... Or have them filed off or significantly bobbed.

When I carried a wheelgun for social purposes, I had 5 rounds loaded. With the single-action, the empty chamber was under the hammer. With the .357, the empty was the first one to come up if the trigger was pulled (double-action), just in case it was ever in someone else's hands.

Interesting. Assuming a revolver has a hammer block, I've never considered not having it loaded.

 

[SoloEqs]

Interesting. Assuming a revolver has a hammer block, I've never considered not having it loaded.

Since I knew that the first chamber was empty, if I needed it, I would know to squeeze twice. Anyone else who might get hold of my DW wouldn't, and that might buy me some time.

The classic single actions had no hammer block, so I carried "five beans in the wheel." It's easy, you load one, skip one, load four, cock, and then lower the hammer on the empty chamber.

 

[Skylane81E]

Add mine.... 2WY3... http://www.airnav.com/airport/2WY3..

You will have to make a few low passes to run the Antelope. Deer and Elk off the runway, but once you are on the ground, I have a target range set up. Altho you will be shooting at the critters first.... I can get predator tags from Game and Fish on request to make it all legal..:wink2:

On my way!

Now on topic I just treat the plane like I do my car

 

[eetrojan]

Since I knew that the first chamber was empty, if I needed it, I would know to squeeze twice. Anyone else who might get hold of my DW wouldn't, and that might buy me some time.

The classic single actions had no hammer block, so I carried "five beans in the wheel." It's easy, you load one, skip one, load four, cock, and then lower the hammer on the empty chamber.

I have a potentially dumb question. Wouldn't you have to lower the hammer on an occupied chamber with the empty next in rotation?

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I have a potentially dumb question. Wouldn't you have to lower the hammer on an occupied chamber with the empty next in rotation?

That's probably what he meant to type. Sometimes my fingers get confused about what my brain meant to say. I'm guessing that happened with his post as well.

 

[eetrojan]

That's probably what he meant to type. Sometimes my fingers get confused about what my brain meant to say. I'm guessing that happened with his post as well.

Thanks. You're probably right. The connection between my brain and my own fingers is suspect at times too.

I don't shoot very much, but I own a double-action wheel gun and it was my memory that it rotated the round into place as the hammer was pulled back by the initial pull of the trigger.

 

[denverpilot]

He was describing an old style with no break open action... the loading door is offset, and you have to load through the hole, with the hammer in the half-cocked position.

http://sheriffjimwilson.com/2012/07/05/five-beans-in-the-wheel/

(And thus the common phrase... "Don't go off half-cocked!", meaning don't forget to cock it or de-cock it... or it isn't going to work... and you'll have to cock it all the way to fire it...)

 

[Rigged4Flight]

He was describing an old style with no break open action... the loading door is offset, and you have to load through the hole, with the hammer in the half-cocked position.

http://sheriffjimwilson.com/2012/07/05/five-beans-in-the-wheel/

(And thus the common phrase... "Don't go off half-cocked!", meaning don't forget to cock it or de-cock it... or it isn't going to work... and you'll have to cock it all the way to fire it...)

Huh. Learn something new every day. I wonder what important piece of information I used to know just got pushed out of my brain.

What I do with my revolver is what he described in the first half of his post: the first pull of the trigger will bring an empty chamber under the hammer. I know this, and my wife knows this, so we would pull twice for the first shot. If someone was able to take the pistol before it was used, the first dead click might buy vital time.

Five beans in the wheel. Very interesting.

 

[denverpilot]

Folks that shoot Cowboy Action are far more familiar with it than anyone else, since the replica old style guns are the ones that need it. Dropping a replica pistol during a match and having it discharge, worse, discharge and hit someone, would be bad, of course. Like the article says, even the replicas after 1973 usually have a transfer bar, but it's just a better habit not to leave that particular style in a condition where a drop that landed on the hammer could do anything. At most Cowboy Action events they'll watch you load it and you'll do the five beans thing.

 

[Old Geek]

This is how I taught my wife to keep her pistol.

And my wife keeps her PPK in the equivalent condition. Round in the chamber, hammer down. Pull the trigger, hammer cocks, gun fires.

 

[Doggtyred]

I'm with you on this, but the problem is that too many people like to finger f$%@ their firearms. And typically it's the guy who thinks he has to always have a round in the chamber.

I'm disappointed that Cap'n'Ron has taken a beating for saying that no one will fly with him with one in the chamber. Seems like it's his right to make that call.

Ron absolutely has that right to make that call.. but in the interests of making an informed decision, realize that the most likely time something is going to happen (accidentally or otherwise) is when a pistol is out of its holster being messed with.

If you have someone with proper trigger discipline its a nonissue. If you have a gun nut whos more interested in demonstrating his rights than in being safe, you might be more likely to have an incident while he futzs around with it...

 

[txflyer]

Hey, what do y'all think about the LC-9? Anybody got one? I'm thinking about getting a new gun, either this one or a gen4 Glock 19. All my pistols are old. I need a new tac weapon.

 

[Ghery]

Too small in my hand, but if it works for you, go for it.

 

[Skylane81E]

Its small, quite a bit smaller than the G19

 

[DaleB]

We bought an LCP for my wife... I have yet to get her to go to the range with it (and me), so it's still un-fired. Her friend has an XD 9mm, though, so maybe I can goad them into a "girls' day at the range".

It's pretty nice little pistol, for what it is. She liked it better than the Kel-Tec, less force required to rack the slide. I wanted to get her a PPK, but she couldn't pull the slide back without a major effort.

 

[SoloEqs]

I have a potentially dumb question. Wouldn't you have to lower the hammer on an occupied chamber with the empty next in rotation?

The single action revolvers, like the "cowboy six-shooter," have the cylinder pinned in place, and the cartridge models have a gate that flips open to load. While loading, you simply rotate the cylinder manually, whether loading cartridges or cap-and-ball.

If you load one round, then skip the next chamber, that chamber will rotate around as you load the other four chambers. When you cock the hammer, the empty chamber rotates under it, so when you let the hammer down, there's nothing there. The other 5 chambers are loaded and will cycle through in order.

 

[SoloEqs]

Hey, what do y'all think about the LC-9? Anybody got one? I'm thinking about getting a new gun, either this one or a gen4 Glock 19. All my pistols are old. I need a new tac weapon.

If you need a small pistol, even after 80 years the PPK has never been surpassed.

 

[SoloEqs]

I wanted to get her a PPK, but she couldn't pull the slide back without a major effort.

Cock the hammer first, and the slide is easy. If it's still a problem, put on a weaker recoil spring. The factory spring is intended for police service use (PPK = "Polizei Pistole Kurz" or "Small Police Pistol").

BTW, make sure she's cocking it properly, with the offhand thumb over the shooting thumb, and the off hand over the top of the slide, then push the slide rearward. Trying to cock it by pinching the back of the slide and pulling doesn't work as well.

 

[SoloEqs]

Folks that shoot Cowboy Action are far more familiar with it than anyone else, since the replica old style guns are the ones that need it.

I never shot CA. I was carrying because that was the revolver that I was the most comfortable with. For a while, I had a Sheriff's Model, which was simply a Single Action Army with a 2" barrel.

This meant, of course, that I didn't have an ejector rod, but that wasn't a problem -- I carried two extra cylinders, with 6 rounds in each and stuck in place with a dab of glue. I could reload faster than the flip-open guys with their speed loaders (push the pin retainer and yank the cylinder pin, drop the old cyl out and slap the new one in, slide the pin back home), and made several hundred dollars proving it to guys who hadn't seen it before and thought I was stupid enough to bet $20 on something I didn't know about. I could fan 17 rounds of full-house .45 Colt into the 7-meter target faster than the flip-open guys could put 12 rounds of .38 wadcutter into the 3-meter target.

 

[Gerhardt]

Hey, what do y'all think about the LC-9? Anybody got one? I'm thinking about getting a new gun, either this one or a gen4 Glock 19. All my pistols are old. I need a new tac weapon.

I like both the LCP and the LC9. I carry them exclusively during the warmer months because they're so small. Anything bigger is too bulky to conceal with a tshirt. During the fall and winter months I add a larger one.

 

[bullwinkle]

LC9 is a nice little gun. Unless you really need something that small, the G19 is a better choice, IMO.

 

[Norman]

G22 .40; in battery.

 

[Doggtyred]

Hey, what do y'all think about the LC-9? Anybody got one? I'm thinking about getting a new gun, either this one or a gen4 Glock 19. All my pistols are old. I need a new tac weapon.

I would get the Glock.. period..

The LC-9 is only good for a belly gun.. its the modern version of a 38 snub. Read the whole thread for my expanded comments on the matter.

 

[Doggtyred]

We bought an LCP for my wife... I have yet to get her to go to the range with it (and me), so it's still un-fired. Her friend has an XD 9mm, though, so maybe I can goad them into a "girls' day at the range".

It's pretty nice little pistol, for what it is. She liked it better than the Kel-Tec, less force required to rack the slide. I wanted to get her a PPK, but she couldn't pull the slide back without a major effort.

Expect heavy trigger pull...

How was she racking the slide? pulling? or pushing her hands together? Most women and folks with less upper body strength do better holding the grip in their dominant hand and pushing the slide back with the other hand (in a crossing motion).. works on any auto, even the ones with the heavy springs.