Flying an Amphibian without SES rating

[Lindberg]

According to The Seaplane Pilots Association, I can legally fly an amphibian off hard-surface runways without a seaplane rating, but I can't land or takeoff from water. I apologize for not having a more authoritative source than that, but I am sure someone here will confirm or refute that statement (or both).

My question is, if I takeoff from a runway, and land in a lake (or vice versa), for how much of the flight can I act as PIC? Can it be the whole flight minus the actual touchdown (or takeoff) and water taxi? Or is it none of the flight because it involves a water operation?

This is not merely academic, as I'm about to start training in an amphibian based on land, and I'm wondering how much of the time will be PIC before I get the rating. (It's also complex/HP, but let's ignore that complication.)

 

[Henning]

That is correct. As long as you operate it as a land plane, you are legal to fly it on a land rating (with a complex endorsement IIRC)

You can be acting PIC down to just before the surface.

 

[docmirror]

I will confirm it. But - I can't find anything in any reg to back it up. I got the info from a CFI who has a seaplane rating, and he can't find any reference for that either.

 

[Henning]

I will confirm it. But - I can't find anything in any reg to back it up. I got the info from a CFI who has a seaplane rating, and he can't find any reference for that either.

It's not in a reg, it's in an interpretation letter somewhere, I forget the name.

 

[James331]

My question is, if I takeoff from a runway, and land in a lake (or vice versa), for how much of the flight can I act as PIC? Can it be the whole flight minus the actual touchdown (or takeoff) and water taxi? Or is it none of the flight because it involves a water operation?

This is not merely academic, as I'm about to start training in an amphibian based on land, and I'm wondering how much of the time will be PIC before I get the rating. (It's also complex/HP, but let's ignore that complication.)

It's somewhat of a grey area (until some moron asks for a FAA letter ). I log all my time in my amphib as amphib/SES time.

I look at it like this, if I pile my amphib in enroute from a hard surface to another hard surface, insurance will ask for a 20% float deductible, vs 1500 bucks for land configuration, because I'm hanging floats below my belly! So if I have floats on it, I'm logging it as such.

Here's SPAs FAQ on it.

Q: How should I log amphibious flight time?

A: In a nutshell, any way you want. Strategies vary from person to person, and there is no known guidance from the FAA on this subject. Insurance companies are often interested in logged amphibious time as a distinct subcategory of logged seaplane time. Many seaplane pilots who fly amphibs primarily from land-based airports consider their amphibious flight time as land plane time. Others consider it seaplane time. A third group breaks it down according to number of land and/or sea operations. The bottom line: it's up to you.

For insurance purposes, it is best to log amphibious time as seaplane time, since total seaplane time is a much more important factor in determining seaplane insurance rates than total time overall or total land plane time.

 

[Henning]

It's somewhat of a grey area (until some moron asks for a FAA letter ). I log all my time in my amphib as amphib/SES time.

I look at it like this, if I pile my amphib in enroute from a hard surface to another hard surface, insurance will ask for a 20% float deductible, vs 1500 bucks for land configuration, because I'm hanging floats below my belly! So if I have floats on it, I'm logging it as such.

Here's SPAs FAQ on it.

That answers a different question though. He is asking if he can even log PIC. He obviously can't log it SES until rated. However if he is buying the same model, the insurance company cares about PIC in type initially typically.

 

[James331]

That answers a different question though. He is asking if he can even log PIC. He obviously can't log it SES until rated. However if he is buying the same model, the insurance company cares about PIC in type.

Agreed

He could log it as PIC SEL time, if the insurance is just asking for 185 or 206 time, most policies I've seen required XX dual time and/or a sign off from a experienced in type SES CFI.

He should check out SPAs insurance as well as Air Power, that's who I use. All they wanted was a sign off from a experienced CFI in that type, I was even able to get them to allow the old owner, a non-CFI PPL to "sign me off"


The big question is what amphib did he get and where are the pics

 

[Lindberg]

The big question is what amphib did he get and where are the pics

It's a Lake Amphibian, Renegade, I think. I have only seen it once, and it's a rental. I had avoided asking "can I log it," but I hadn't thought of the logging aspect that you raised. Have to think about which do I want more of, SES dual or SEL PIC+dual? I don't know if it'll make a difference on my renter's insurance though? It may all be moot if the training is as short as has been suggested to me.

 

[Henning]

It's a Lake Amphibian, Renegade, I think. I have only seen it once, and it's a rental. I had avoided asking "can I log it," I hadn't thought of the logging aspect that you raised. Have to think about which do I want more of, SES dual or SEL PIC+dual? I don't know if it'll make a difference on my renter's insurance though? It may all be moot if the training is as short as has been suggested to me.

If you are going to buy a Lake Amphib, log it as dual SES and PIC SEL I laugh, but I'm not sure it is forbidden. If aren't buying one and are just continuing to rent this one, it doesn't matter. Most likely a Buccaneer.

 

[JHW]

who cares how you log it? writing numbers in a little book has nothing to do with catching fish

 

[Henning]

who cares how you log it? writing numbers in a little book has nothing to do with catching fish

For the most part it's irrelevant. If he is buying one, it saves him that 5 hrs worth of PIC requirement to get signed off for the insurance. That's the only place where I can see it coming into play, and he is welcome to log it as LA-4-200(or 6-250) PIC SEL and be free of any later problems provided the PIC time is less than the total time, because he cannot count the time on the the water. I bring this up because there has been a bust over the dual PIC safety pilot time where the 2 pilot's log books were equal, and the safety pilot can only log PIC when the PIC Sole Manipulator is under the hood.

 

[tlglenn]

Hmm, I wonder if this is kosher. Pilot has:
1) 100 Hours in ASEL-only planes,
2) 100 hours in ASES-only planes,
3) and 100 hours in ASE-amphibs.

Could the pilot claim to have all the following:
1) 200 Hours of ASEL,
2) 200 hours of ASES,
3) 300 hours total time.

I guess it'll depend on who is asking.

 

[Henning]

Hmm, I wonder if this is kosher. Pilot has:
1) 100 Hours in ASEL-only planes,
2) 100 hours in ASES-only planes,
3) and 100 hours in ASE-amphibs.

Could the pilot claim to have all the following:
1) 200 Hours of ASEL,
2) 200 hours of ASES,
3) 300 hours total time.

I guess it'll depend on who is asking.

No, amphib time you log either/or towards total time.

 

[moonshine]

My Lake time is split between ASEL and ASES based on whether I was flying with intention to land on the water or not.
There's only one flight that I can think of that's both ASEL and ASES - when I flew to another airport to refuel, but the nose wheel got stuck and wouldn't come out, at which point I changed my mind and pointed the nose towards the nearest lake with a good ramp - at that point ASEL time ended and ASES time started.

 

[Silvaire]

Hmm, I wonder if this is kosher. Pilot has:
1) 100 Hours in ASEL-only planes,
2) 100 hours in ASES-only planes,
3) and 100 hours in ASE-amphibs.

Could the pilot claim to have all the following:
1) 200 Hours of ASEL,
2) 200 hours of ASES,
3) 300 hours total time.

I guess it'll depend on who is asking.

Well for one thing there is no such thing as an "amphib" rating so there would be no hours logged as "amphib"

 

[BillTIZ]

All of my ASES time is in a Lake Bucaneer, LA-4-200. I logged it all as SES dual recieved. I did not log any as PIC. I did log it also as complex dual recieved. I was a freshly minted private pilot and was building the complex time to get checked out in the Arrow when I got back to campus. My instructor was the local DPE, land, sea, multi and instrument. This was 40 yrs ago.

Edit: we departed from land, to lake, to lake, to land. We reversed the course at the end of the day. Logged all as ASES.

 

[James331]

Well for one thing there is no such thing as an "amphib" rating so there would be no hours logged as "amphib"

Many employers and insurance companies ask about Amphib time, and for good reason I you look at the risk of putting a low time float dude on straight floats vs amphibs.

 

[Silvaire]

Yea but there's still no such thing as an amphib rating, you're going to log as SEL or SES, not both concurrently.

 

[James331]

Yea but there's still no such thing as an amphib rating, you're going to log as SEL or SES, not both concurrently.

Which has alreay been stated.

It's also a good idea to keep track of your amphib time for insurance etc.

 

[Silvaire]

Which has alreay been stated.

It's also a good idea to keep track of your amphib time for insurance etc.

Yea, which you already said. Slow night.

 

[Henning]

All of my ASES time is in a Lake Bucaneer, LA-4-200. I logged it all as SES dual recieved. I did not log any as PIC. I did log it also as complex dual recieved. I was a freshly minted private pilot and was building the complex time to get checked out in the Arrow when I got back to campus. My instructor was the local DPE, land, sea, multi and instrument. This was 40 yrs ago.

Edit: we departed from land, to lake, to lake, to land. We reversed the course at the end of the day. Logged all as ASES.

The way I look at it, if one end or another of a leg is in the water, or if a splash and go occurred in between, it's an SES leg. So if you have a Lake and live in TX, you can bounce off your stock pond and count it SES.