FLYING A TURBO, HELP PLESE

[dennyleeb]

As many read on here the other day I just got a new ride. It is a 05 turbo 182. I know they require more attention so please give me some pointers. The more info the better.

 

[Trapper John]

Didn't your new ride come with a POH?

 

[dmccormack]

Instead of free advice online, how about paying a CFI with turbo experience?

 

[dennyleeb]

Instead of free advice online, how about paying a CFI with turbo experience?

SORRY TO GIVE YOU SUCH A PROBLEM

YES I GET A POH WHEN I GET IT NEXT WEEK, AND YES ALREADY HAVE A CFI READY TO GO

DON'T BE SO RUDE

IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO ADD CONTRUCTIVE PLEASE SAY NOTHING

MFH

JUST LOOKIN FOR A LITTLE HELP I THOUGHT THATS WHAT FORUMS WERE FOR

 

[dennyleeb]

Didn't your new ride come with a POH?

NO I DROPPPED A QUATER MILL AND DID NOT GET A POH

SMART AZZ

 

[dmccormack]

SORRY TO GIVE YOU SUCH A PROBLEM

YES I GET A POH WHEN I GET IT NEXT WEEK, AND YES ALREADY HAVE A CFI READY TO GO

DON'T BE SO RUDE

IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO ADD CONTRUCTIVE PLEASE SAY NOTHING

MFH

JUST LOOKIN FOR A LITTLE HELP I THOUGHT THATS WHAT FORUMS WERE FOR

And my advice is the best you'll get -- spend some time and $$ with a qualified CFI that can answer your questions about your airplane.

 

[EdFred]

 

[Anthony]

We have a lot of turbo experience here, but Iam not one of them and IMHO many CFI's do not have a lot of turbo experience either. Hopefully, Dr. Bruce and some other turbo experienced people will chime in. I know Andrew, (Flyersfan) also operated a turbo C-182 and now owns a Matrix which is turboed, so he will be a very valuable asset.

Nice plane btw, and I saw a lot of them when I lived in Colorado. That's a sweet plane for mountain ops. Wish my Tiger was turboed out there. Good luck.

 

[dennyleeb]

And my advice is the best you'll get -- spend some time and $$ with a qualified CFI that can answer your questions about your airplane.

You dont think I know to read a POH and get a CFI.
I was asking for small tips, I am excited about my new plane. Maybe from someone who flys turbos and has some advice to help. Thats all I was asking but people like you have to be a jerk...

 

[dennyleeb]

We have a lot of turbo experience here, but Iam not one of them and IMHO many CFI's do not have a lot of turbo experience either. Hopefully, Dr. Bruce and some other turbo experienced people will chime in. I know Andrew, (Flyersfan) also operated a turbo C-182 and now owns a Matrix which is turboed, so he will be a very valuable asset.

Nice plane btw, and I saw a lot of them when I lived in Colorado. That's a sweet plane for mountain ops. Wish my Tiger was turboed out there. Good luck.

Thank You
any help I can get is nice

 

[Anthony]

Does your plane have a EI or JPI engine analyzer?

 

[EdFred]

In flying turbos this is the number one thing you need to know:

Small, gradual changes. Oh, and don't wail along at max MP just because the POH says so, unless of course you want to OH the engine ever 250 hours.

 

[Trapper John]

YES I GET A POH WHEN I GET IT NEXT WEEK, AND YES ALREADY HAVE A CFI READY TO GO

Wow, only a week to make a deal, get a prebuy, line up financing, get all the paperwork done and ferry it home...color me impressed!

 

[wbarnhill]

SORRY TO GIVE YOU SUCH A PROBLEM

YES I GET A POH WHEN I GET IT NEXT WEEK, AND YES ALREADY HAVE A CFI READY TO GO

DON'T BE SO RUDE

IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO ADD CONTRUCTIVE PLEASE SAY NOTHING

MFH

JUST LOOKIN FOR A LITTLE HELP I THOUGHT THATS WHAT FORUMS WERE FOR

Just an FYI as someone who has never purchased or maintained an aircraft... this thread along with your previous one discussing the purchase makes it sound like you rushed into this without doing prudent research. I think that's why you're getting some harsh responses. Hope you enjoy your new (to you) plane though!

 

[wsuffa]

Wow, only a week to make a deal, get a prebuy, line up financing, get all the paperwork done and ferry it home...color me impressed!

Took me a week when I bought my plane. Helped that it was about 100 miles away.

/break

As for flying a turbo, it really depends on the plane and wastegate configuration. I have a turbo (Commander w/TO360 engine). Mine uses a wastegate that's mechanically linked to the throttle - so as the throttle opens, the wastegate closes. Others use a fixed wastegate, and some have upper-deck controllers. How you fly it really depends on the configuration.

For me, and specifically for the configuration in my plane, I bring the throttle up to about 30 inches of MP either entering the runway or stationary at the end of the runway. As the turbo spools up, I bring the throttle to about 2 inches below redline.... as the plane builds speed on the runway, it generally comes up to redline. On a shorter field, I'll bring it up to 30 and then redline with the brakes on, and bring the throttle back slightly as the speed comes up.

I also have to manage descents more carefully.

Having said all that, planes with different wastegate configurations need to be flown differently, so my process may well not work for you.

 

[dmccormack]

Just an FYI as someone who has never purchased or maintained an aircraft... this thread along with your previous one discussing the purchase makes it sound like you rushed into this without doing prudent research. I think that's why you're getting some harsh responses. Hope you enjoy your new (to you) plane though!

Concur.

I own an airplane and have Turbo 182RG time.

 

[Anthony]

Just an FYI as someone who has never purchased or maintained an aircraft... this thread along with your previous one discussing the purchase makes it sound like you rushed into this without doing prudent research. I think that's why you're getting some harsh responses. Hope you enjoy your new (to you) plane though!

So what? The guy wants help. This is an aviation site with experienced aircarft owners, operators and mechanics. He should be able to get advice here, mistakes or not. And I'm not here to judge people's buying process. He owns an airplane, which is a heck of a lot more than many here can say about having a committment to General Aviation.

 

[dennyleeb]

Just an FYI as someone who has never purchased or maintained an aircraft... this thread along with your previous one discussing the purchase makes it sound like you rushed into this without doing prudent research. I think that's why you're getting some harsh responses. Hope you enjoy your new (to you) plane though!

I have owned and maintained aircraft just not a turbo. I have been shopping for 6 months so not exactly a rush. I was just waiting top buy until mine sold.

 

[dmccormack]

So what? The guy wants help. This is an aviation site with experienced aircarft owners, operators and mechanics. He should be able to get advice here, mistakes or not. And I'm not here to judge people's buying process. He owns an airplane, which is a heck of a lot more than many here can say about having a committment to General Aviation.

FWIW, I don't see any "harsh" response here.

 

[dennyleeb]

I owned a LSA Jabiru J-250 for the last 2 years that I got my private in. FYI

 

[dennyleeb]

The engine monitor is part of the G-1000
I think it is a
GEA-71 Engine/Airframe Computer

 

[Anthony]

FWIW, I don't see any "harsh" response here.

Did I say there was a "harsh" response? Don't think so. The guy wants airplane advice, I think this is a reasonable place for him to get it. Don't you?

 

[dennyleeb]

In flying turbos this is the number one thing you need to know:

Small, gradual changes. Oh, and don't wail along at max MP just because the POH says so, unless of course you want to OH the engine ever 250 hours.

Please more details on the MP, I have never flown a complex for more than a few hrs. I am sure my CFI will tell me the same but please give some more details on the MP.

 

[dmccormack]

Denny -- I'll ask again, and add smilies so it's not considered a "harsh" question....

Do you have a CFI available who knows turbos? It really helps to fly with someone who knows the airplane and knows how to teach (not every owner is a good teacher, just like not every CFI knows every airplane).

I did my tailwheel transition with a young CFI who flies Lears for a living, but has about a thousand hours in Champs and Chiefs. I learned more on the ground before and after flying about my airplane than I could have learned on my own in years.

 

[weilke]

FWIW, I don't see any "harsh" response here.

The only 'harsh' response was the guy starting to scream in all caps after he was given a very reasonable recommendation.

 

[dmccormack]

Did I say there was a "harsh" response? Don't think so. The guy wants airplane advice, I think this is a reasonable place for him to get it. Don't you?

Sorta.

I bought a tailwheel before I had the TW endorsement. I dididn't log onto POA and ask how to fly taildraggers -- I sought a CFI with TW expertise. Since then I've engaged in thread son here about TW flying, and learn that way.

In this case the approach was more: "I just bought a taildragger -- give me tips..."

Where to begin?

 

[EdFred]

Please more details on the MP, I have never flown a complex for more than a few hrs. I am sure my CFI will tell me the same but please give some more details on the MP.

In a normally aspirated engine, the highest MP (Manifold Pressure) you are going to see is right about bit less than the ambient air pressure. A turbo will boost that to, well heck in some engines, double or more. Just because you CAN run it at 42" or 46" or whatever the POH says of manifold pressure, doesn't mean you should. Sort of like driving a car around at 100rpm below redline all the time. Sure, you *can*, but you probably shouldn't. Me personally, I'd never run above 30", and would only run 25" at altitude.

 

[dennyleeb]

The only 'harsh' response was the guy starting to scream in all caps after he was given a very reasonable recommendation.

another great response,

I dont think they were "harsh" just rude

I am not a idiot I have a CFI with alot of turbo time that I am thankfull to have. Just looking for as much help as I can get and some have been good. However some say "read the POH" that is a smart azz response. Others say boy that was a quick close blah blah blah

I know you need to be delicate with Turbos, just looking for pointers not dumb comments. Its like telling kids if you cant say something nice dont say it at all. I have been on alot of forums for help with diff. things and have never been on a forum where more people wanted to make comments like that then help. If anyone on here wanted info on a Jabiru I could give some great advice and would love to help. Just asking for the same in return.

 

[dennyleeb]

In a normally aspirated engine, the highest MP (Manifold Pressure) you are going to see is right about bit less than the ambient air pressure. A turbo will boost that to, well heck in some engines, double or more. Just because you CAN run it at 42" or 46" or whatever the POH says of manifold pressure, doesn't mean you should. Sort of like driving a car around at 100rpm below redline all the time. Sure, you *can*, but you probably shouldn't. Me personally, I'd never run above 30", and would only run 25" at altitude.

Thanks I will keep that in mind

 

[Anthony]

Sorta.

I bought a tailwheel before I had the TW endorsement. I dididn't log onto POA and ask how to fly taildraggers -- I sought a CFI with TW expertise. Since then I've engaged in thread son here about TW flying, and learn that way.

In this case the approach was more: "I just bought a taildragger -- give me tips..."

Where to begin?

Before I bought my Tiger I lined up Ron Levy to check me out in it and then hired a Grumman savvy CFI to act as safety pilot when I flew it home, as I was transitioning from my Cherokee. That doesn't mean I didn't ask a lot of questions about it before and after the purchase.

 

[dmccormack]

Before I bought my Tiger I lined up Ron Levy to check me out in it and then hired a Grumman savvy CFI to act as safety pilot when I flew it home, as I was transitioning from my Cherokee. That doesn't mean I didn't ask a lot of questions about it before and after the purchase.

Sure! And I asked about Aeroncas and Chiefs on here before pulling the trigger!

It's a great resource... but it helps to provide a question and context -- not just "give me tips."

Give me a rock
OK -- Here you go
Nope -- wrong rock...

 

[dennyleeb]

Sorta.

I bought a tailwheel before I had the TW endorsement. I dididn't log onto POA and ask how to fly taildraggers -- I sought a CFI with TW expertise. Since then I've engaged in thread son here about TW flying, and learn that way.

In this case the approach was more: "I just bought a taildragger -- give me tips..."

Where to begin?

Then why say anything at all? Did your mommy not teach you if you can't say something nice or at least contructive to not say anything at all?

I would not see a problem if someone wanted a cub that had a 152. Bought one and come on here and ask for tips.

 

[dmccormack]

Then why say anything at all? Did your mommy not teach you if you can't say something nice or at least contructive to not say anything at all?.

OK, now you're getting tedious. Out here.

 

[Ted]

A CFI with turbo experience by itself isn't very helpful. I have seen a number of people with turbo experience who operate turbocharged aircraft incorrectly, or at least less than optimally.

If I remember correctly, the T182 has a TIO-540-AK1A producing 235 hp @ 2400 RPM, with rated manifold pressure being something around 32" (plus or minus an inch or two). While not specifics (Andrew likely has some more advice from owning a T182), here are some general tips:

- Takeoff is all knobs forward, as standard.
- Establish a climb power once you are clear of all obstacles in 85-90% range. I would pull manifold pressure back to 25-27", 2400 RPM is still fine. Lean such that your CHTs and TIT are all well below limits. I personally keep my engines at or below 380F as a rule.
- Once at altitude, establish your cruise power. This is generally in the 60-70% range. Some people will cruise at 75% power. I have found you can normally get a significant fuel savings without a significant decrease in airspeed by sacrificing a bit of power. Plus it'll be easier to keep your temperatures happy. I would still keep cylinders at or below 380F. Also keep your TIT happy. Limits are not goals.
- As you descend, bring back manifold pressure slowly not abruptly. I generally do 1"/minute. A lot of people say this isn't necessary, but I find it to be much nicer for passengers.
- Make all power adjustments gradually. You don't have mechanical gauges, but the gauges on the G1000 still have some lag. Adjust slowly enough that the needles can keep up with you without big jumps on step. One thousand one, one thousand two from idle to full power.

The POH has a lot of good performance information in it, but there's a big difference between performance information and what will allow your engine to live a long, happy life.

 

[wsuffa]

I asked a lot of questions from other Commander owners about mine between agreeing to purchase and closing. Actually started asking earlier than that as I knew I wanted a turbo.

Denny, the other thing to keep in mind is that *most* turbos are a *lot* happier running at 65% power. They'll run cooler and last longer. Yes, you'll run full power on TO and parts of climb. But in cruise, the 65% range is my guide.

My engine prohibits leaning above 75% power. So not only is it more wear on the engine, but it's also much more fuel burn at higher powers. Again, that's engine dependent.

You can run LOP with some turbos, others not. Mine is carburated, and it's not as well balanced as injectors.

But as Ed notes, smooth, slow movements are the key to long life and avoiding overboost/overheating on the engine.

 

[Ted]

In a normally aspirated engine, the highest MP (Manifold Pressure) you are going to see is right about bit less than the ambient air pressure. A turbo will boost that to, well heck in some engines, double or more. Just because you CAN run it at 42" or 46" or whatever the POH says of manifold pressure, doesn't mean you should. Sort of like driving a car around at 100rpm below redline all the time. Sure, you *can*, but you probably shouldn't. Me personally, I'd never run above 30", and would only run 25" at altitude.

Ed makes correct points here overall here. The only thing I'd point out is that on turbocharged engines that have rated manifold pressures of 40" or higher, they are expected to run at higher manifold pressures. On a Navajo, for example, you may see 42"/2575 RPM on takeoff, use 35"/2400 RPM for climb, and 30"/2200 RPM for cruise. Those are good numbers for that engine.

For a turbo-normalized engine (term for an engine that is not boosted significantly above sea level pressure), Ed's numbers are good.

By the way, a T182 is turbo-normalized.

 

[Ted]

Sorta.

I bought a tailwheel before I had the TW endorsement. I dididn't log onto POA and ask how to fly taildraggers -- I sought a CFI with TW expertise. Since then I've engaged in thread son here about TW flying, and learn that way.

In this case the approach was more: "I just bought a taildragger -- give me tips..."

Where to begin?

Taildragger vs. nosewheel and turbo vs. naturally aspirated are different, though. There is no turbocharger endorsement, and I've noticed a number of CFIs who don't know how to operate turbos well. I don't think a CFI is necessarily a requirement in this case, but obviously a CFI with turbo experience to fly with is ideal.

 

[dmccormack]

Taildragger vs. nosewheel and turbo vs. naturally aspirated are different, though. There is no turbocharger endorsement, and I've noticed a number of CFIs who don't know how to operate turbos well. I don't think a CFI is necessarily a requirement in this case, but obviously a CFI with turbo experience to fly with is ideal.

Of course each is different, but the root approach is the same -- show me the differences and provide me with the requisite knowledge and skill to accomodate those differences.

I bolded what my initial response in this thread was.

 

[SCCutler]

Alrighty, then.

Denny, after years of flying relatively simple airframes and (more importantly) powerplants, you have jumped into a whole new pond.. a nice one, at that. With that comes a whole new set of skills needed and bad consequences for bad decisions.

You are attacking several different challenges at the same time - transitioning to an aircraft with a constant-speed prop, and to one with a turbocharger, and each adds its own element of complexity. Your question about MP is telling in this regard.

In your simple trainer aircraft, you basically set power by RPM, and max power is selected by shoving the noise-maker-handle (throttle) all the way in. Now, you can't do that any more.

Power, in a plane with a constant-speed prop, is called out as a combination of Manifol Pressure (that's the "MP") and RPM; in a normally-aspirated engine, the available power declines as you climb and air becomes less dense - hence, available MP declines as well. An example of power settings you might hear from a pilot is "23 inches and 2300 RPM."

With your turbocharger, since you are converting some of the exhaust pressure into higher intake air pressure, your available manifold pressure is higher, on the ground and as you climb. This means, you must be careful as you add power that you do not exceed the maximum allowable MP, which can easily and quickly cause engine trouble ("trouble," as in, "the top just popped off of my number two cylinder"). IN addition, turbocharging is inherently a heat-maker, since you are using hot exhaust gases to spin a turbine, which in turn spins another turbine on the same shaft which compresses the intake air, which in turn makes the intak air a lot hotter (adiabatic heating)... you get the picture.

So, all this by way of saying, we can give you general advice and experiences (Bill's above are a perfect), but it is so painfully true that you must, you simply must, get qualified training on the plane; the time you'll spend just learning the proper operation of the engine and its associated systems (cowl flaps, f'rinstance) will be amazingly distracting, and you'll find for the first eight or ten hours that you are woefully behind the plane; it goes faster than you're used to, and there are a lot more doodles requiring wanging and flashy-blinky things to watch. And, any of them done wrong, and you have a fifty-thousand-dollar-moment. Uninsured.

Awesome plane. You should seriously consider instructional time as noted (and I bet your insurer will require it); and you should really read the John Deakin engine operation articles, which explain the concepts of advanced engine operations better than any of us will ever be able to do.

http://www.advancedpilot.com/downloads/prep.pdf

And, you might seriously consider signing up for, and attending, an Advanced Pilot Seminar ( http://www.advancedpilot.com ), to learn how properly to operate your extremely valuable, complex and expensive airplane engine. The course will pay for itself in saved maintenance.

Welcome to Pilots of America - we can be a crusty bunch, but these folks here will always turn out for you when you need it!

---
Edit:

Man, a lot of responses while I typed that!

 

[dennyleeb]

A CFI with turbo experience by itself isn't very helpful. I have seen a number of people with turbo experience who operate turbocharged aircraft incorrectly, or at least less than optimally.

If I remember correctly, the T182 has a TIO-540-AK1A producing 235 hp @ 2400 RPM, with rated manifold pressure being something around 32" (plus or minus an inch or two). While not specifics (Andrew likely has some more advice from owning a T182), here are some general tips:

- Takeoff is all knobs forward, as standard.
- Establish a climb power once you are clear of all obstacles in 85-90% range. I would pull manifold pressure back to 25-27", 2400 RPM is still fine. Lean such that your CHTs and TIT are all well below limits. I personally keep my engines at or below 380F as a rule.
- Once at altitude, establish your cruise power. This is generally in the 60-70% range. Some people will cruise at 75% power. I have found you can normally get a significant fuel savings without a significant decrease in airspeed by sacrificing a bit of power. Plus it'll be easier to keep your temperatures happy. I would still keep cylinders at or below 380F. Also keep your TIT happy. Limits are not goals.
- As you descend, bring back manifold pressure slowly not abruptly. I generally do 1"/minute. A lot of people say this isn't necessary, but I find it to be much nicer for passengers.
- Make all power adjustments gradually. You don't have mechanical gauges, but the gauges on the G1000 still have some lag. Adjust slowly enough that the needles can keep up with you without big jumps on step. One thousand one, one thousand two from idle to full power.

The POH has a lot of good performance information in it, but there's a big difference between performance information and what will allow your engine to live a long, happy life.

Thank You