Flying a PA-28-180

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

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Dustin
This Saturday I'm going to be flying in to AXH to get signed off to rent the Piper Cherokee 180 at Dutch Wings. I've only been in a Low wing plane once, and it was just a friends Air Tractor AT-502 and we never left the ground. I've only flown in Cessna 152's and 172's, so I have no Low Wing experience at all.

What all do I have to do different in a Low wing, compared to a High
wing? I remember reading something about needing to turn on a Fuel Pump, but that's all I know.

Any tips?
 
Yes there is a fuel pump on low wings since fuel cant rely on gravity if an engine driven fuel pump fails...only needs to be on for takeoff fuel tank switching and landing. I quite enjoyed the cherokee the first time I flew one. Things are a little different but not hard...I do have to say they are far more "honest" of a plane to land. Have fun.
 
There isn't a whole lot different. There will be two fuel tanks and you can only burn off one at a time. So you have to put a little more thought towards managing fuel.

The fuel system isn't gravity fed since the wings are on the bottom which means that if the mechanical fuel pump dies the engine will quit. There is an electric fuel pump that provides redundancy. You generally only operate it during the critical phases of flight (takeoff, landing).

The PA-28-180 is a rather draggy airframe and is pretty damn forgiving. You'll catch onto it pretty quickly.

Personally...I'd rather fly a 172.
 
jesse said:
There isn't a whole lot different. There will be two fuel tanks and you can only burn off one at a time. So you have to put a little more thought towards managing fuel.
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When I flew the Archer I would generally do 30 minutes on one tank, hour on the next, hour back on the first, etc. Kept it well-balanced.

The PA-28-180 is a rather draggy airframe and is pretty damn forgiving. You'll catch onto it pretty quickly.
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Very true. You practicaly have to work to screw something up in it badly. Even then, it'll probably let you get out of it.

Personally...I'd rather fly a 172.
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It's a personal thing. They're pretty darn similar overall. If you can fly one, you can fly the other. It just make take a couple times around the pattern to get the landings right.
 
Thanks for the input guys!

Jesse: I'm looking in to buying a Cherokee at some point, so I thought it would be nice to rent one for a while so I can get a feel for if I really want one, or if I want to stick to Cessna's.
 
The best part? You can see where you are going on base to final....
Second best part? Much easier to fill the gas tanks....
 
The worst part: Most maintenance involves many trips around, rather than under, the wings.
 
Steve Foley said:
The worst part: Most maintenance involves many trips around, rather than under, the wings.
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You must be shorter than me. In my case, most trips around a 172 result in me banging my head on the wing and losing valuable brain cells.
 
Snaggletooth said:
What all do I have to do different in a Low wing, compared to a High
wing?
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On the ground you will have to adjust your swagger because only real pilots fly low wings :D:D:D

You already heard about the fuel pump. Some things will look different out the sides of the plane. But other than that there really is not much difference. Although some people may notice a little more float in some low wings. I think the biggest difference will be in taxiing pay close attention to where your wing tips are.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
When I flew the Archer I would generally do 30 minutes on one tank, hour on the next, hour back on the first, etc. Kept it well-balanced.
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I'll do that on a short flight. If I'm flying a long flight and really need to know where the fuel is at I:

1.) takeoff on left tank. climb to cruise altitude. fly for an additional hour.
2.) switch to right tank. fly for one hour.
3.) switch to left tank. run empty.
4.) switch back to right tank knowing I have at least 1.5 hours of fuel and it's all in one tank. No running dry on short final because you don't know which tank has that last few gallons in.

Ideally you wouldn't get to a scenario where you were down to the last couple of gallons but I manage the fuel to where if it does happen I am in a better position to deal with it. Plenty of airplanes have ran out of gas and crashed even though the other tank still had enough fuel to get them by.

Of course my more aggressive 1+ hour fuel tank switching does make for a wing being slightly heavy but in a Cherokee its manageable.
 
The more I read, the more and more I wonder what I have gotten my self in too. lol
Maybe I'll stick to Cessna's after this. lol
 
I switch tanks ever 30 minutes. I use my nice analog clock to remind me which tank I should be on. If the minute hand is between 12 and 6 then the right tank. Between 6 and 12 then the lest tank. IOW the minute hand is pointing to the tank to be pulling fuel from.
 
Snaggletooth said:
The more I read, the more and more I wonder what I have gotten my self in too. lol
Maybe I'll stick to Cessna's after this. lol
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Well, people ignore fuel on Cessnas and they shouldn't. If you have one side drawing faster than the other, your engine can stop running with plenty of fuel left. Fuel management is important in any plane.

Now if you really want fun, we'll start talking a Twin Cessna with main tanks, aux tanks, and one nacelle tank, and you have to take off and land on the mains. ;)
 
Trim crank on the ceiling is different. Not bad, just different than a 172.
Flaps seem less effective than a 172.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, people ignore fuel on Cessnas and they shouldn't. If you have one side drawing faster than the other, your engine can stop running with plenty of fuel left. Fuel management is important in any plane.

Now if you really want fun, we'll start talking a Twin Cessna with main tanks, aux tanks, and one nacelle tank, and you have to take off and land on the mains. ;)
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I'll learn about the Twin Cessna's when I start my Multi-engine training. lol
 
The really, really best part? You can open the both sides of the cowling preflight and really see the fule lines, cyls, wires, carb, and check for leaks, drips, cracks and stuff. Can't see much through that little Cessna dipstick door.
 
On a soft field, the nosewheel won't come off the ground in a Cherokee until it's ready to fly, and flaps pitch the nose down vs. up in a Cessna. It's a little more dramatic because of the mechanical flaps vs. relatively slowly extending/retracting electrical flaps.

You'll do just fine.
 
ScottM said:
On the ground you will have to adjust your swagger because only real pilots fly low wings :D:D:D
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I thought your swagger was automatically adjusted when the shin buster gets you. Just thinking about it hurts.
 
Trapper John said:
Trim crank on the ceiling is different. Not bad, just different than a 172.
Flaps seem less effective than a 172.
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Chip Sylverne said:
The really, really best part? You can open the both sides of the cowling preflight and really see the fule lines, cyls, wires, carb, and check for leaks, drips, cracks and stuff. Can't see much through that little Cessna dipstick door.
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Not on the D, E, F, G models. Trim wheel is between the seats, and the cowl is one piece.
 
fgcason said:
I thought your swagger was automatically adjusted when the shin buster gets you. Just thinking about it hurts.
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How tall are you that you hit your SHINS on the wings?
 
Snaggletooth said:
The more I read, the more and more I wonder what I have gotten my self in too. lol
Maybe I'll stick to Cessna's after this. lol
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Note that a 180 will have a heavier feel than 140 or the 152 and 172

personally I like the light control feel of my 140
 
Bob Noel said:
Note that a 180 will have a heavier feel than 140 or the 152 and 172

personally I like the light control feel of my 140
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And I like the 180 hp out here in the west where I start at 5500 MSL and DA right now (1600 MDT) is 8000 and today is a cool day.

It all depends where you fly....
 
jesse said:
No running dry on short final because you don't know which tank has that last few gallons in.
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I'm not sure I understand, Jesse. If you run out of fuel in one tank, the remaining fuel is in the other one! :D:D
That's not too hard to remember.....

-Skip
 
Snaggletooth said:
The more I read, the more and more I wonder what I have gotten my self in too. lol
Maybe I'll stick to Cessna's after this. lol
Click to expand...

When I bought my Cherokee 180, I had ZERO low wing time (unless you count an F16 motion sim :) )

You'll love it. It took two turns around the pattern to get the sight picture. The extra power is great, the manual flaps are outstanding, you can slip with full flaps :ihih:, it handles better than a Cessna. Cherokees have rudder trim, which is really nice. The oleo main gear soak up landing forces and make anyone look good. They won't bounce you back into the air like Cessna spring-steel gear can.
The price for all this is switching tanks and turning on the fuel pump when taking off, landing, or switching tanks.

I have a bad back and a blown knee. Doing the jungle-gym climb on a Skyhawk to get to the caps in a non-starter for me. It's easier to get in and out of. The baggage door is huge compared to a Skyhawk.
The air vents don't fall out onto you if you try to open them. The air vents are on the floor and put out tons of air if you open them fully and point them up.
 
That's why I like flying the 172E, It's light on the controls unlike the 172N I flew before it.
 
PilotAlan said:
When I bought my Cherokee 180, I had ZERO low wing time (unless you count an F16 motion sim :) )

You'll love it. It took two turns around the pattern to get the sight picture. The extra power is great, the manual flaps are outstanding, you can slip with full flaps :ihih:, it handles better than a Cessna. Cherokees have rudder trim, which is really nice. The oleo main gear soak up landing forces and make anyone look good. They won't bounce you back into the air like Cessna spring-steel gear can.
The price for all this is switching tanks and turning on the fuel pump when taking off, landing, or switching tanks.

I have a bad back and a blown knee. Doing the jungle-gym climb on a Skyhawk to get to the caps in a non-starter for me. It's easier to get in and out of. The baggage door is huge compared to a Skyhawk.
The air vents don't fall out onto you if you try to open them. The air vents are on the floor and put out tons of air if you open them fully and point them up.
Click to expand...

Finaly... a post that's not scary. lol
 
Snaggletooth said:
That's why I like flying the 172E, It's light on the controls unlike the 172N I flew before it.
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Wow, that's interesting. Because with my limited experience with pre-1998 Cessna 172s is limited to the L & M models. They feel much, much lighter on the controls than both the R & S models.
 
Dustin, I believe you'll really enjoy it. The feel of ground effect changes some, other than that it's a plane. :wink2: You've gotten several ides on the tank changing so I'll add another for confusion sake. :crazy: I was taught to start up and taxi on one tank and then change over prior to my run-up and then switch back and forth every 30 minutes. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to remember that you need to do it, especially when the fan quits. :D Have fun and we'll await your report.
 
According to my log book, I have an hour in a Cherokee 140 - it must not have been a very big deal switching over from the Cessna 120 I was flying at the time because I absolutely do not remember flying the Cherokee.:dunno:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
According to my log book, I have an hour in a Cherokee 140 - it must not have been a very big deal switching over from the Cessna 120 I was flying at the time because I absolutely do not remember flying the Cherokee.:dunno:
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A little CRS setting in huh. :D
 
Snaggletooth said:
I know, its not running out that bothers me as much. It's that one link that was posted about the flight characteristics. :eek:
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the one i posted? Whitt is very thorough. read the rest of the website and you'll see what i mean.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
When I flew the Archer I would generally do 30 minutes on one tank, hour on the next, hour back on the first, etc. Kept it well-balanced.
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That's what I do in my Cherokee. Never more than 30 minutes difference in tanks.
 
geneseib said:
That's what I do in my Cherokee. Never more than 30 minutes difference in tanks.
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So, Say your a new Cherokee Pilot :D and you forget to switch the tanks and its got a 40 minute difference rather than your max limit of 30. Do you burn the other tank for 40 to balance it?
 
Snaggletooth said:
So, Say your a new Cherokee Pilot :D and you forget to switch the tanks and its got a 40 minute difference rather than your max limit of 30. Do you burn the other tank for 40 to balance it?
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No, 10 minutes of fuel is only a few lbs (7 or 8, maybe), not enough to worry about.
 
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