Flying a non-GPS approach with GPS guidance

[TMetzinger]

You might be there, but I'm not. Regardless of what the AIM no longer says, until I see something that positively states you can do otherwise, I don't plan to fly any approaches without GPS in the title using GPS for primary guidance.

That's a good plan - and what I'm hoping is you'll never be able to load an approach without getting the warning.

Would it be so hard for the AIM to say "The word GPS must appear in the title of the procedure for it to be flown using IFR GPS for primary navigation"?

Would it be so hard to put it out as a NOTAM?

 

[ghogue]

Would it be so hard for the AIM to say "The word GPS must appear in the title of the procedure for it to be flown using IFR GPS for primary navigation"?

Tim,

Isn't that what this says, or are you thinking of something different?

g. GPS Approach Procedures
...................
Therefore, all the approaches that can be used by GPS now contain "GPS" in the title (e.g., "VOR or GPS RWY 24," "GPS RWY 24," or "RNAV (GPS) RWY 24").
................................

 

[John Collins]

Tim,

Doesn't this qualify from the AIM: Therefore, all the approaches that can be used by GPS now contain “GPS” in the title (e.g., “VOR or GPS RWY 24,” “GPS RWY 24,” or “RNAV (GPS) RWY 24”).

As an aside, a NOTAM is not the appropriate vehicle to correct this kind of information.

 

[TMetzinger]

Tim,

Isn't that what this says, or are you thinking of something different?

g. GPS Approach Procedures
...................
Therefore, all the approaches that can be used by GPS now contain "GPS" in the title (e.g., "VOR or GPS RWY 24," "GPS RWY 24," or "RNAV (GPS) RWY 24").
................................

Ignoring the other part of the AIM about RNAV, I guess it does.

I need to sit down and read the entire nav section of the AIM again and see if I draw the conclusion you do. I certainly didn't at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Palmpilot]

Tim,

Isn't that what this says, or are you thinking of something different?

g. GPS Approach Procedures
...................
Therefore, all the approaches that can be used by GPS now contain "GPS" in the title (e.g., "VOR or GPS RWY 24," "GPS RWY 24," or "RNAV (GPS) RWY 24").
................................

OK, next question: Has the AIM language gone missing that used to say that you can substitute GPS for land based navaids when you're NOT on the final approach course?

 

[TMetzinger]

OK, next question: Has the AIM language gone missing that used to say that you can substitute GPS for land based navaids when you're NOT on the final approach course?

LOL - sort of. That big long discussion that used to be in the AIM is now replaced by the language in part two I quoted earlier in post #4, talking about IFR GPS being approved RNAV navigation and that RNAV could be used to get to or from pretty much anywhere...

....
....

Except apparently from the FAF to the MAP.

The 90-series AC they mention in the AIM doesn't yet exist.

 

[John Collins]

Richard,

The discussion has been moved to AIM 1-2-3 RNAV, look at section b. 1. and c. The latest version of the AIM is dated 8-27-2009 and it has revisions in this area. See below for excerpts:

1-2-3 b. 1. An RNAV system with TSO−C129/−C145/−C146 (including all revisions (AR)) equipment, installed in accordance with AC 20−138 (including AR) or AC 20−130A, and authorized for instrument flight rules (IFR) en route and terminal operations (including those systems previously qualified for “GPS in lieu of ADF or DME” operations), ...

c. Allowable Operations. ​

Operators may use a suitable RNAV system in the following ways. ​

1. Determine aircraft position over or distance from a VOR (see NOTE 4 below), TACAN, NDB, compass locator, DME fix; or a named fix defined by a VOR radial, TACAN course, NDB bearing, or compass locator bearing intersecting a VOR or localizer course.

2. Navigate to or from a VOR, TACAN, NDB, or compass locator.
3. Hold over a VOR, TACAN, NDB, compass locator, or DME fix.
4. Fly an arc based upon DME.​

These operations are allowable even when a facility is explicitly identified as required on a procedure (e.g., “Note ADF required”).​

These operations do not include lateral navigation on localizer

based courses (including localizer back−course guidance) without reference to raw localizer data.

NOTE
1. These allowances apply only to operations conducted within the NAS.​

2. The allowances defined in paragraph c apply even when a facility is explicitly identified as required on a procedure (e.g., “Note ADF required”). These allowances do not apply to procedures that are identified as not authorized (NA) without exception by a NOTAM, as other conditions may still exist and result in a procedure not being available. For example, these allowances do not apply to a procedure associated with an expired or unsatisfactory flight inspection, or is based upon a recently decommissioned navaid.

3. Pilots may not substitute for the navigation aid providing lateral guidance for the final approach segment. This restriction does not refer to instrument approach procedures with “or GPS” in the title when using GPS or WAAS. These allowances do not apply to procedures that are identified as not authorized (NA) without exception by a NOTAM, as other conditions may still exist and result in a procedure not being available. For example, these allowances do not apply to a procedure associated with an expired or unsatisfactory flight inspection, or is based upon a recently decommissioned navaid.​

4. For the purpose of paragraph c, “VOR” includes VOR, VOR/DME, and VORTAC facilities and “compass locator” includes locator outer marker and locator middle marker.​

​

​

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, then so far we're at:

If it's in the database, and it doesn't tell you otherwise, you can fly it using the GPS.

Here's the FAA's position: If it doesn't say "GPS" in the title (i.e., "GPS," "RNAV(GPS)," or "...or GPS"), you can't use GPS for primary lateral guidance on the final segment, even if it's in the database.

 

[Palmpilot]

Richard,

The discussion has been moved to AIM 1-2-3 RNAV, look at section b. 1. and c. The latest version of the AIM is dated 8-27-2009 and it has revisions in this area. See below for excerpts:

1-2-3 b. 1. An RNAV system with TSO−C129/−C145/−C146 (including all revisions (AR)) equipment, installed in accordance with AC 20−138 (including AR) or AC 20−130A, and authorized for instrument flight rules (IFR) en route and terminal operations (including those systems previously qualified for “GPS in lieu of ADF or DME” operations), ...

c. Allowable Operations. ​

Operators may use a suitable RNAV system in the following ways. ​

1. Determine aircraft position over or distance from a VOR (see NOTE 4 below), TACAN, NDB, compass locator, DME fix; or a named fix defined by a VOR radial, TACAN course, NDB bearing, or compass locator bearing intersecting a VOR or localizer course.​

2. Navigate to or from a VOR, TACAN, NDB, or compass locator.
3. Hold over a VOR, TACAN, NDB, compass locator, or DME fix.
4. Fly an arc based upon DME.​

These operations are allowable even when a facility is explicitly identified as required on a procedure (e.g., “Note ADF required”).​

These operations do not include lateral navigation on localizer




based courses (including localizer back−course guidance) without reference to raw localizer data.

NOTE​

1. These allowances apply only to operations conducted within the NAS.​

2. The allowances defined in paragraph c apply even when a facility is explicitly identified as required on a procedure (e.g., “Note ADF required”). These allowances do not apply to procedures that are identified as not authorized (NA) without exception by a NOTAM, as other conditions may still exist and result in a procedure not being available. For example, these allowances do not apply to a procedure associated with an expired or unsatisfactory flight inspection, or is based upon a recently decommissioned navaid.​

3. Pilots may not substitute for the navigation aid providing lateral guidance for the final approach segment. This restriction does not refer to instrument approach procedures with “or GPS” in the title when using GPS or WAAS. These allowances do not apply to procedures that are identified as not authorized (NA) without exception by a NOTAM, as other conditions may still exist and result in a procedure not being available. For example, these allowances do not apply to a procedure associated with an expired or unsatisfactory flight inspection, or is based upon a recently decommissioned navaid.​

4. For the purpose of paragraph c, “VOR” includes VOR, VOR/DME, and VORTAC facilities and “compass locator” includes locator outer marker and locator middle marker.​

[emphasis added]​

​

​

AHA, THEY FIXED IT!

The language in the current note 3 above did not exist in the 7/31/2008 AIM revision that we were discussing in the red board thread. (See link below.) Looks like Ron's contacts at the FAA decided not to wait for the new version of the advisory circular. Problem solved!

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/AIM_CHG1_7-31-08.pdf

 

[TMetzinger]

Hooray!

 

[TMetzinger]

Here's the FAA's position: If it doesn't say "GPS" in the title (i.e., "GPS," "RNAV(GPS)," or "...or GPS"), you can't use GPS for primary lateral guidance on the final segment, even if it's in the database.

With the latest AIM revision, I agree. But based on our observations so far, I'd expect all the IFR GPS with the procedures in the database to throw up the warning message, and it would be reasonable to alert Jepp (or another database provider) if you loaded an approach without "GPS" somewhere in the title and the warning didn't come up. They make mistakes too.