"Fly the Cherokee", he said ..... Or: I learned an important lesson.

Shepherd said:
I haven't gotten around to ask. I just parked it, and told the mechanic about the problem.
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That's the problem with all these new-fangled aeroplanes packed with technology and creature comforts, like the Cherokee. Too many things that can go wrong and ground the darn thing. :rolleyes::D
 
chemgeek said:
Grummans have a binary heating system. The heat vents are a blast furnace and will roast you right out of the cabin. I can't tolerate more than partial heat. Pull the vents to let in cold air to balance the heat at altitude, and it's like sticking your hands in the freezer. Balancing out the airflow reminds me of using the sinks in the U.K., where it is apparently unbecoming to mix hot and cold water together before it comes out into the sink from separate faucets. Hot! Cold! Hot! Cold cold cold! Hot! Ow! Cold!
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So you're saying they copied the heat system out of a VW Beetle...
 
Regarding my Cherokee PA28-181, you get very toasty in very cold ambient air, including your feet from the extra heat vents on the floor. You just have to make sure all those ram air vents are manually closed, including the ceiling cabled vent. Yes to sometimes needing to open a vent to cool things down somewhere. The main thing to look for is whether the oil cooler winterization plate is in place for winter operations. Otherwise, you may have problems getting adequate cabin heat in the cold. Never had a scat hose malfunction, but those get replaced periodically.
 
Lady Luscombe's doors do not form what would be called an effective seal. So winter flying takes me back to my freight dog days in the old Twinkie with the marginally effective Janitrol. Ah the good old days - part 135 in New England - at night - condensed breath moisture even with the heat on full blast. Sigh.
 
JVerb said:
So you're saying they copied the heat system out of a VW Beetle...
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LOL. I can remember scraping the frost (from breathing) off the inside of the windshield of my '68 Beetle. I always thought that was why they used a flat piece of glass...to make it easy to scrape.
 
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If I had to guess, one of the floor vents seal let go. They get air from the leading edge of the wing, so there's good flow. A nerf ball in the vent works well as a temporary measure.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
The main thing to look for is whether the oil cooler winterization plate is in place for winter operations. Otherwise, you may have problems getting adequate cabin heat in the cold. Never had a scat hose malfunction, but those get replaced periodically.
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Actually the oil temperature has no bearing on cabin heat. The heat comes from a heat exchanger around the exhaust pipe. The winterization plate is to make sure your oil gets hot enough.
 
While your logic is impeccable, let my anecdote of one be a warning to the possibility of some relationship. Whether it is the effect of additive heat of radiation from a normally warm engine to the shroud or scat tubing itself to make the heat transfer to the cabin more efficient in a very cold ambient environment, or otherwise, I think it may be significant. In any event, it is probably unwise to operate you engine in very cold temperatures without the winterization plate, for the sake of the engine’s lubrication. I think I discovered the cabin heat issue on one of my trips during winter traveling from Florida without the plate going to the Northeast. YMMV
 
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You should be careful when blocking off vents.

I know someone who is alive BECAUSE he had an engine failure in winter!


The rental 172 landed uneventfully after a cylinder split open.

A missing part allowed the Cowl to push back against the Muffler Shroud.

Ultimately the Pressure Can was pierced which allowed Exhaust Gases

to contaminate the Cabin Heat.

The Vent Inlets on the wing were found taped over.

If you suspect CO in the cockpit opening Fresh Air Vents is a prudent course of

action after shutting off Cabin Heat.

Even if the CO was recognized the option of getting fresh air was taken away.

There is no doubt on my part that if the jug had not failed he would have been

overcome.
 
Magman said:
You should be careful when blocking off vents.

I know someone who is alive BECAUSE he had an engine failure in winter!


The rental 172 landed uneventfully after a cylinder split open.

A missing part allowed the Cowl to push back against the Muffler Shroud.

Ultimately the Pressure Can was pierced which allowed Exhaust Gases

to contaminate the Cabin Heat.

The Vent Inlets on the wing were found taped over.

If you suspect CO in the cockpit opening Fresh Air Vents is a prudent course of

action after shutting off Cabin Heat.

Even if the CO was recognized the option of getting fresh air was taken away.

There is no doubt on my part that if the jug had not failed he would have been

overcome.
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100% agree. Never block your vents. In fact, I leave a couple of vents open, pointed away from me, no matter how cold it is. CO is a killer. Those little spots on cardboard are as useless as good-luck charms (I'm surprised it's even legal to sell them). A decent CO detector is better—as long as the battery's fully charged, it's not too old (they're good for only a certain number of years), and you can hear it go off—but you never want the CO to get to that point.

Another good protection is flying lean of peak EGT, like @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe mentioned, which eliminates a lot (not all) of the CO from the exhaust gas. Reducing the CO-poisoning risk is actually why I started flying LOP about 18 years ago, not (originally) for the fuel savings, etc.
 
The vents I was talking about are designed to be closed (or open if needed). The seals often age to the point of uselessness. You then have a freezing hurricane at your knees. If you are generating enough CO to need these open in sub freezing temperatures you have way bigger problems than being cold. Get a decent CO meter and use it.
 
GRG55 said:
LOL. I can remember scraping the frost (from breathing) off the inside of the windshield of my '68 Beetle. I always thought that was why they used a flat piece of glass...to make it easy to scrape.
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Yep ... I got a '74 Beetle. They are one of the few cars that require the use a ice scraper on the inside windshield.
 
The PA28 is one of the simplest airframes, I think it consists of 1200 parts. I recall the heater being a cable connected to a door. I can't imagine the shoddy maintenance that allows that to fail, it's a really obvious part of the engine bay, which is really easy to examine since you can just open up the cowls for preflight.
 
Magman said:
You should be careful when blocking off vents.

I know someone who is alive BECAUSE he had an engine failure in winter!


The rental 172 landed uneventfully after a cylinder split open.

A missing part allowed the Cowl to push back against the Muffler Shroud.

Ultimately the Pressure Can was pierced which allowed Exhaust Gases

to contaminate the Cabin Heat.

The Vent Inlets on the wing were found taped over.

If you suspect CO in the cockpit opening Fresh Air Vents is a prudent course of

action after shutting off Cabin Heat.

Even if the CO was recognized the option of getting fresh air was taken away.

There is no doubt on my part that if the jug had not failed he would have been

overcome.
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I once suspected CO while flying a 207 in winter because the cheap color changing dot changed colors, with the vents taped over.

After turning off the heat, I opened the window.
 
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