Fly more if you're a CFI?

[spiderweb]

Would getting the CFI be a good idea, if your main goal is just to be up in the air more often, and without having to pay?

[Before you jump all over this, for those of you who don't know, half of what I do for a living is teach--private lessons, and college classes--so obviously I would love the teaching part.]

 

[jesse]

If you really want to teach people to fly, sure, it's a valid reason. I've been flying a lot more now that I'm a CFI. Just realize that teaching properly is a lot of work and you need to be able to dedicate the time to the students so that you don't leave someone hanging.

 

[spiderweb]

If you really want to teach people to fly, sure, it's a valid reason. I've been flying a lot more now that I'm a CFI. Just realize that teaching properly is a lot of work and you need to be able to dedicate the time to the students so that you don't leave someone hanging.

Said very well. In my case, I have another full time job, so I could only teach a few students. I'm quite sure there would be times they'd want a lesson when I couldn't give them one.

 

[RyanShort1]

It's fun, but it's a BIG responsibility, too. Especially when you realize that something your student did that was dumb, even if not your fault, could have pretty serious consequences.

Ryan

 

[TMetzinger]

What Jesse said. If you are part of a well-run school there's less angst over student management, as your fellow instructors can substitute for you on most occasions when you're ill or otherwise unavailable.

As I'm only available part-time - I get a lot of the intro/adventure flights, flight reviews, and the "substitute teacher" role, which is fine with me.

 

[Ted]

Jesse summarized it well. I'm ramping up my flight instruction at this point, but I can also dedicate the time to the students.

However, for the first 20 months or so I had my CFI, I only ever did flight reviews and various short-term instruction. It's only now that I'm getting into more full-time instruction because I am now able to commit the time to doing it. If you intended on doing something similar, I don't see an issue.

That said, if you're going to get your CFI... you should have something valuable to offer your students, especially if you're doing flight reviews and the like. Just getting the rating to have it without having anything of value to teach people I don't think is responsible. That's something you need to determine for yourself.

 

[spiderweb]

Usually the goal is to build time so you can get a job. For me, aside from teaching, it would also just to be in the air more often. I wonder what percentage of pilots who get their CFI feel that way.

 

[TMetzinger]

Usually the goal is to build time so you can get a job. For me, aside from teaching, it would also just to be in the air more often. I wonder what percentage of pilots who get their CFI feel that way.

I do. Any time I'm up in the air I'm happy. When I'm not paying to do it my wife is happy too.

 

[EdFred]

Would getting the CFI be a good idea, if your main goal is just to be up in the air more often, and without having to pay?

[Before you jump all over this, for those of you who don't know, half of what I do for a living is teach--private lessons, and college classes--so obviously I would love the teaching part.]

No. It is not.

 

[RyanShort1]

After re-reading the OP - I agree with EdFred above.

Ryan

 

[spiderweb]

After re-reading the OP - I agree with EdFred above.

Ryan

Agree, but what about "Is getting the CFI OK if your main goal is to build hours?"

I think the original sentiment isn't ideal, but it is better than this sentiment. Love of flying is contagious, after all.

 

[RyanShort1]

Agree, but what about "Is getting the CFI OK if your main goal is to build hours?"

I think the original sentiment isn't ideal, but it is better than this sentiment. Love of flying is contagious, after all.

Building hours is worse - by far. If you really love teaching, and are really committed to excellence as a CFI - not as a steppingstone, then I'd say go for it.

Ryan

 

[Everskyward]

I think that no matter what your ultimate goal in life is that you can do a good job as a CFI if you put your mind to it. The way I read some of these posts, unless you are in the job you think you are going to retire from that you can't do a good job at what comes before. I know plenty of good CFIs who were not going to remain CFIs forever.

 

[EdFred]

The main goal of being a cfi should be......no...MUST BE to instruct. Not to build time, not to get to fly for free. Anything short of doing it because you primarily want to teach is selling your students short.

 

[Everskyward]

The main goal of being a cfi should be......no...MUST BE to instruct. Not to build time, not to get to fly for free. Anything short of doing it because you primarily want to teach is selling your students short.

Guess I never would have become a pilot at all if I had to wait for a CFI like that...

 

[TMetzinger]

The main goal of being a cfi should be......no...MUST BE to instruct. Not to build time, not to get to fly for free. Anything short of doing it because you primarily want to teach is selling your students short.

I disagree. I've done lots of work where I knew I wanted to do something else. It never stopped me from giving full value to the work I was doing.

You make it sound like one must go study for 15 years with the secret Aviation Monks in Tibet, and be inducted into the mysteries, with lifelong vows (poverty comes to mind ) before you can teach a primary student.

I've had great instructors who went on to airline careers. I've had one bad experience with a "career" instructor. The thing the best ones had in common was a passion for aviation mixed with a passion for teaching. Good teachers live for the moment when the student goes "a-HA!".

 

[spiderweb]

I agree. I am a professional musician. I also teach and instruct at the college level. Some days its great and others. . . . But no matter what, I do my best, and I'm in this because I love it.

 

[EdFred]

You make it sound like one must go study for 15 years with the secret Aviation Monks in Tibet, and be inducted into the mysteries, with lifelong vows (poverty comes to mind ) before you can teach a primary student.

...and the problem is?

 

[Bobcat1]

I disagree. I've done lots of work where I knew I wanted to do something else. It never stopped me from giving full value to the work I was doing.

You make it sound like one must go study for 15 years with the secret Aviation Monks in Tibet, and be inducted into the mysteries, with lifelong vows (poverty comes to mind ) before you can teach a primary student.

I've had great instructors who went on to airline careers. I've had one bad experience with a "career" instructor. The thing the best ones had in common was a passion for aviation mixed with a passion for teaching. Good teachers live for the moment when the student goes "a-HA!".

I'm just guessing that all he's saying is that the level of commitment a CFI has to make to being a good and proper instructor is higher than initially imagined by the applicant. Both of you are singing the same tune with only some slight variations.

You will never be as good a pilot as when you are in a position where you have to teach others to be pilots.

Starving just comes with the territory.

 

[AdamZ]

I'm with Ed on this. I've had two great CFI's who were not time builders but I've flow with time builders and the verdict there for me is split some were very good but some were really bad. Take the folks on this board. Ted He is IMHO not doing the CFI thing to build time but rather because he loves to fly and teach he's gonna be a super II I believe Jesse and Tristan fit that mold as well and probably others.

But if your sole reason to become a CFI is to fly more. I dunno that just dosen't make me feel good about the education I'd get.

 

[RyanShort1]

But if your sole reason to become a CFI is to fly more. I dunno that just dosen't make me feel good about the education I'd get.

I'd hate to have the reputation of being the guy who wanted to fly more if the word got out. The only reason I'm becoming more biased about this, is because more and more I see students that come to me have had bad experiences. I flew with a guy this morning who's had 60 hours of training and 4 instructors. I helped a guy finish up about a month and a half ago who had 200 hours and 10 instructors before finishing his checkride with me. That kind of stuff makes me sick, and while the latter is a bit extreme, I think that the 60 hour student with 4 instructors is not as uncommon as I wish it was.

Ryan

 

[JesseD]

I'd hate to have the reputation of being the guy who wanted to fly more if the word got out. The only reason I'm becoming more biased about this, is because more and more I see students that come to me have had bad experiences. I flew with a guy this morning who's had 60 hours of training and 4 instructors. I helped a guy finish up about a month and a half ago who had 200 hours and 10 instructors before finishing his checkride with me. That kind of stuff makes me sick, and while the latter is a bit extreme, I think that the 60 hour student with 4 instructors is not as uncommon as I wish it was.

Ryan

I'm on #3 myself (about 16 hours TT) for instruction. The first one was scheduling (and she switched schools, moving to a different city), the second got a better job (and scheduling became an issue), the current one practically lives at the airport. Really good instructor and nice guy. Only one regular weekday and holidays / vacations are verboten.

 

[jesse]

There is nothing that says you cannot be a good instructor, if your reason for becoming an instructor, was to fly more. There is a big difference between saying:
"Hey, I love aviation, I'd like to fly more, I also enjoy teaching. Maybe I'll teach in my free time"
versus
"Hey, I want to fly the big iron, the last thing I want to do is teach but I'm just going to do it and get through it as fast as I can"

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Jesse summarized it well. I'm ramping up my flight instruction at this point, but I can also dedicate the time to the students.

However, for the first 20 months or so I had my CFI, I only ever did flight reviews and various short-term instruction. It's only now that I'm getting into more full-time instruction because I am now able to commit the time to doing it. If you intended on doing something similar, I don't see an issue.

That said, if you're going to get your CFI... you should have something valuable to offer your students, especially if you're doing flight reviews and the like. Just getting the rating to have it without having anything of value to teach people I don't think is responsible. That's something you need to determine for yourself.

Excellent ramp up. That's exactly what the FAA recommends in Best Practices for Aviation Mentoring, which discusses CFI, CFII, and new instrument pilot transition and mentoring plans.

For CFIs, they suggest the first ten flights assigned to a new CFI be flight review customers, followed by five flights each (15 total) of aircraft checkouts for existing pilots, transition training (new aircraft or endorsement), then introductory / discovery flights. Only after this would a new CFI take on a new primary student.

For CFIIs, the recommended ramp-up is for the first ten flights to be IPCs or instrument recurrency training before taking on new instrument students. Even then, they suggest and propose a sample ramp up of the weather minimums for a new CFII.

Google for the 21 page guide. Good read.

 

[Tristar]

Flight instructing is one of those opportunities that have a wide range of perspectives on why people do it. Those perspectives are shown in the Instructor's personalities and are also rubbed off on students. What I mean by that is the fact that if you're strictly in it for the hours, students sense that. They also sense that being a CFI is not a good career choice. Now I'm not saying you'll be rich, because you probably wont, but the truth is that without good instructors, there wont be good pilots. With that in mind, this world needs instructors...so...as instructors...we have to encourage that there are great opportunities out there to become full time or supplement your current career as a CFI. Do them a favor though, don't tell them your only point of being there is to build time. That's an insult to their hard earned money, time, and trust they put into you.

I love to fly, I love to teach, I love to share with others why I love to fly but I also love corporate flying, traveling, bigger, better and faster jets etc. The thing with me though is I love both for two totally different reasons and there is nothing wrong with that. So yes, I am also building time to fly the jets and build my career path but a part of me will always love to teach. I tell my students all the time that I do it because each time they come out for another lesson it's a new adventure. The smiles and the sense of passion keep me a young at heart pilot.

Building time to fly as a CFI is perfectly fine but do not look at it that way. It's more of a side effect. Look at it as an opportunity to learn responsibility for others success, hone your own skills and share what you love on a daily basis. Students will teach you more than you could ever learn in practically any other job as a pilot and you won't regret what you've learned.

 

[spiderweb]

There is nothing that says you cannot be a good instructor, if your reason for becoming an instructor, was to fly more. There is a big difference between saying:
"Hey, I love aviation, I'd like to fly more, I also enjoy teaching. Maybe I'll teach in my free time"
versus
"Hey, I want to fly the big iron, the last thing I want to do is teach but I'm just going to do it and get through it as fast as I can"

The first statement is how I'm feeling.

 

[Everskyward]

The first statement is how I'm feeling.

I'm guessing that you also have a lot of teaching experience that many other CFIs don't have when they start in that you are a teacher of music.

 

[spiderweb]

I'm guessing that you also have a lot of teaching experience that many other CFIs don't have when they start in that you are a teacher of music.

I've been teaching cello for 25 years, and college classes at three different colleges for 10 years. So I do feel I have a reasonably good handle on the teaching aspect.

 

[EdFred]

With flight instruction, you have to make decisions on your own about you, the plane, the student, the weather, etc. A flight instructor needs confidence in his flying and decision making ability and needs to show that to his/her students. You can be a great teacher, but if the student doesn't trust you, or senses a lack of self confidence: mega fail. You can also be a great pilot, but might not be able to explain a damn thing so the student gets it. Also a fail.

Being a CFI is more than just teaching.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I disagree. I've done lots of work where I knew I wanted to do something else. It never stopped me from giving full value to the work I was doing.

Amen. I never wanted to be involved in the trucking business, but IMNSHO when I was instructing drivers I was the best damn instructor they had. I also enjoyed it so much that I ended up in that business for years longer than I intended.

Ben, I've known you (internet-wise... How have we not yet met in person?!?) for about 9 years, since we were both student pilots and we were talking on a different-colored board. I know that, since you asked this question, your head is in the right place. You already teach (and perform) for a living and seem to enjoy it greatly - That's very analogous to your flight instructing being the teaching part and your personal flights being the performing part. While there are plenty of people out there who I would not be good CFI's if they only wanted to get up in the air more often without paying, you're not one of them. Even if it is your primary motivation, you're still going to be motivated to teach and I think you have valuable experience to share with students. So go for it!

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I haven't chimed in yet but I thought I would share a few thoughts as a young instructor. I love to teach and find it a very rewarding and worthwhile challenge. The experience and insight I have gained by flight instructing has been invaluable and has made (and continues to make) me a better pilot. The time spent instructing is also time in the logbook which is really just icing on the cake and may help me secure future flying positions.

Yes, I have plans to fly larger equipment one day but that doesn't relieve me of my responsibility to be a great flight instructor and put forth the effort above and beyond that which is required. I certainly don't do it for the money (a whopping $7.50/hr at Purdue) and I would imagine I would still instruct even if I did not have plans to make commercial flying my career.

The "time" I log isn't just flight time to add to my resume, it's valuable experience I can share with others, enjoy, and use to market myself as a responsible and serious professional for future opportunities. So in many ways, not all "time builders" are the same. Sure there are those who do not take their responsibility and commitment seriously, but that will be true of that individual regardless of whether they instruct or fly for the airlines. That being said, there are young instructors out there that just instruct to build time. I like to believe I don't fall into that category. Logging time is surely a plus, but I view it as a much greater opportunity than a few numbers on a piece of paper.

 

[taters]

Excellent ramp up. That's exactly what the FAA recommends in Best Practices for Aviation Mentoring, which discusses CFI, CFII, and new instrument pilot transition and mentoring plans.

For CFIs, they suggest the first ten flights assigned to a new CFI be flight review customers, followed by five flights each (15 total) of aircraft checkouts for existing pilots, transition training (new aircraft or endorsement), then introductory / discovery flights. Only after this would a new CFI take on a new primary student.

For CFIIs, the recommended ramp-up is for the first ten flights to be IPCs or instrument recurrency training before taking on new instrument students. Even then, they suggest and propose a sample ramp up of the weather minimums for a new CFII.

Google for the 21 page guide. Good read.

Its really adverse thinking....the new CFI's should be teaching the commercials(since they probably just did it themselves) and the more experienced CFI's should teach the PPL. I look at my first PPL student compared to my last..and it makes me almost sick the difference in the training.

To the OP if your going to instruct(for time building), you have a duty to do your best and always seek progression in your skills...after each lesson I always de-briefed myself as I did the student. I also learned to not bite off more than I could chew in terms of student load for the sake of the student, and even when to throw in the towel when professional flying had taken over completely.... again, for the sake of the student . Bottom line being a responsible CFI requires a selfless disciple, just make sure you remember that every time you get a chance to fly something much bigger 10 minutes before your lesson starts...Good Luck! this is a great way to make a name for yourself.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm still trying to figure out what world the FAA is in ... where there's enough CFI work to do, and a CFI could get five flight reviews (easy) and 15 aircraft checkouts, plus transition training, and then intro/discovery flights, in that order...

That "syllabus" would take 2-3 years at a typical FBO/rental place right now.

Maybe one of the newer CFI's could pipe up here. Ever worked where there were enough pilots training and enough CFIs to really split up the responsibilities that much where you're at? Did you limit yourself to this type of thing or just have to jump in and start instructing whoever came along for whatever rating or checkout or whatever they needed, the very day you were hired on somewhere?

Unless they went through one of the monster college or ratings schools, I'm kinda doubting many CFIs have this mythical life in the document where the sky is a-buzzing with airplanes and the pack of grizzled old CFIs covers everything except the BFR's and the aircraft checkouts, even if the new CFI is standing at the counter when a new customer strolls in.



What a nice fairy tale!

Speaking of that, when a new customer does stroll in (and wasn't brought in by a specific CFI), how do most FBO's handle doling out the fresh meat... ahem, er... students to the hungry CFIs in the back room? Always wondered that. Round-robin? Luck of the draw of which CFI is willing to sit around in the back room or work the counter on days off from his real job (cough...)? Whichever CFI the owner likes best gets all new students first? Seniority?

 

[taters]

I'm still trying to figure out what world the FAA is in ... where there's enough CFI work to do, and a CFI could get five flight reviews (easy) and 15 aircraft checkouts, plus transition training, and then intro/discovery flights, in that order...

That "syllabus" would take 2-3 years at a typical FBO/rental place right now.

Maybe one of the newer CFI's could pipe up here. Ever worked where there were enough pilots training and enough CFIs to really split up the responsibilities that much where you're at? Did you limit yourself to this type of thing or just have to jump in and start instructing whoever came along for whatever rating or checkout or whatever they needed, the very day you were hired on somewhere?

Unless they went through one of the monster college or ratings schools, I'm kinda doubting many CFIs have this mythical life in the document where the sky is a-buzzing with airplanes and the pack of grizzled old CFIs covers everything except the BFR's and the aircraft checkouts, even if the new CFI is standing at the counter when a new customer strolls in.



What a nice fairy tale!

Speaking of that, when a new customer does stroll in (and wasn't brought in by a specific CFI), how do most FBO's handle doling out the fresh meat... ahem, er... students to the hungry CFIs in the back room? Always wondered that. Round-robin? Luck Whichever CFI the owner likes best gets all new students first? Seniority?

seniority with common sense exceptions

 

[jesse]

I'm still trying to figure out what world the FAA is in ... where there's enough CFI work to do, and a CFI could get five flight reviews (easy) and 15 aircraft checkouts, plus transition training, and then intro/discovery flights, in that order...

That "syllabus" would take 2-3 years at a typical FBO/rental place right now.

Maybe one of the newer CFI's could pipe up here. Ever worked where there were enough pilots training and enough CFIs to really split up the responsibilities that much where you're at? Did you limit yourself to this type of thing or just have to jump in and start instructing whoever came along for whatever rating or checkout or whatever they needed, the very day you were hired on somewhere?

Unless they went through one of the monster college or ratings schools, I'm kinda doubting many CFIs have this mythical life in the document where the sky is a-buzzing with airplanes and the pack of grizzled old CFIs covers everything except the BFR's and the aircraft checkouts, even if the new CFI is standing at the counter when a new customer strolls in.



What a nice fairy tale!

Speaking of that, when a new customer does stroll in (and wasn't brought in by a specific CFI), how do most FBO's handle doling out the fresh meat... ahem, er... students to the hungry CFIs in the back room? Always wondered that. Round-robin? Luck of the draw of which CFI is willing to sit around in the back room or work the counter on days off from his real job (cough...)? Whichever CFI the owner likes best gets all new students first? Seniority?

I get some flight reviews/IPC(s). My primary and instrument students I've found myself via my own marketing efforts. Not that hard really.

Looking at my logbook, my first dual given flights:
flight review,
flight review,
complex/high performance endorsement,
primary training (student found via my own marketing),
primary training (student found via my own marketing),
primary training (student found via my own marketing),
instrument training
..and so on

To be honest, I think the IPC(s) and flight reviews can be more challenging then the primary flights. You must jump in an airplane with someone you've never met, often in equipment you've never flown, and then judge them. If they can't satisfy the requirements you must have the less than pleasant conversation with them about that.

 

[dmccormack]

To be honest, I think the IPC(s) and flight reviews can be more challenging then the primary flights. You must jump in an airplane with someone you've never met, often in equipment you've never flown, and then judge them. If they can't satisfy the requirements you must have the less than pleasant conversation with them about that.

Absolutely. The most painful may be the FR with an older pilot who just doesn't have it any more but thinks he does.

 

[weilke]

Absolutely. The most painful may be the FR with an older pilot who just doesn't have it any more but thinks he does.

You mean the 'old stubborn guy with the Bonanza'.

 

[Everskyward]

Absolutely. The most painful may be the FR with an older pilot who just doesn't have it any more but thinks he does.

Even sadder is the older pilot who doesn't have it any more and is just realizing, to his embarrassment, that he doesn't.

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks for your encouragement, Kent!

Amen. I never wanted to be involved in the trucking business, but IMNSHO when I was instructing drivers I was the best damn instructor they had. I also enjoyed it so much that I ended up in that business for years longer than I intended.

Ben, I've known you (internet-wise... How have we not yet met in person?!?) for about 9 years, since we were both student pilots and we were talking on a different-colored board. I know that, since you asked this question, your head is in the right place. You already teach (and perform) for a living and seem to enjoy it greatly - That's very analogous to your flight instructing being the teaching part and your personal flights being the performing part. While there are plenty of people out there who I would not be good CFI's if they only wanted to get up in the air more often without paying, you're not one of them. Even if it is your primary motivation, you're still going to be motivated to teach and I think you have valuable experience to share with students. So go for it!

 

[spiderweb]

To the OP if your going to instruct(for time building), you have a duty to do your best and always seek progression in your skills...after each lesson I always de-briefed myself as I did the student. I also learned to not bite off more than I could chew in terms of student load for the sake of the student, and even when to throw in the towel when professional flying had taken over completely.... again, for the sake of the student . Bottom line being a responsible CFI requires a selfless disciple, just make sure you remember that every time you get a chance to fly something much bigger 10 minutes before your lesson starts...Good Luck! this is a great way to make a name for yourself.

Thanks! I would do it for the pleasure of flying and the pleasure of instructing. My private teaching rate is far higher than what I'd get as a CFI.