Flue Season is here- I opt out of flue shots.

Again, best to remember that there will be a small, yet calculable, chance that, uninoculated you will serve as a vector for someone else getting the flu.

And that person will have a small, yet calculable, chance of dying.

If you're OK with that, no one will force you to get a shot.

Considering the really tiny risks involved with the vaccine, for me it remains the socially responsible thing to do, and a no-brainer.

YMMV.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Again, best to remember that there will be a small, yet calculable, chance that, uninoculated you will serve a vector for someone else getting the flu.

And that person will have a small, yet calculable, chance of dying.

If you're OK with that, no one will force you to get a shot.

Considering the really tiny risks involved with the vaccine, for me it remains the socially responsible thing to do, and a no-brainer.

YMMV.
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This is true. Those who visit or live with an elderly person or somebody with one of many chronic diseases should consider getting vaccinated to avoid giving the flu to them. The elderly and chronically ill often do not get a good immune response to the vaccination.
 
Gary F said:
This is true. Those who visit or live with an elderly person or somebody with one of many chronic diseases should consider getting vaccinated to avoid giving the flu to them. The elderly and chronically ill often do not get a good immune response to the vaccination.
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Since most of us come into contact with the young, the elderly and the chronically ill on a daily basis at work and at the store and the bank and restaurants and, well, everywhere, unless one was a total recluse I don't think they'd get a "bye" from their spreading the disease to others.

I, for one, would feel really bad if someone died just because I didn't feel like getting a shot.

But That's Just Me™!
 
Gary F said:
If somebody does not want to get vaccinated then fine by me. I get annoyed when they spout off ridiculous reasons why vaccinations don't work or how they make you sick. Some of us believe that science trumps gossip.
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This. :yes:

Why not do both? Get sun and take the shots? :dunno:

Why is it an either or? :dunno:
 
FastEddieB said:
Since most of us come into contact with the young, the elderly and the chronically ill on a daily basis at work and at the store and the bank and restaurants and, well, everywhere, unless one was a total recluse I don't think they'd get a "bye" from their spreading the disease to others.

I, for one, would feel really bad if someone died just because I didn't feel like getting a shot.

But That's Just Me™!
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It doesnt have to be on a daily basis to make somebody ill. An infected person can transmit the influenza virus fairly easily during a single contact.

People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might also get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth or nose.

Most healthy adults may be able to infect other people beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Children may pass the virus for longer than 7 days. Symptoms start 1 to 4 days after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those persons may still spread the virus to others.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm
 
FastEddieB said:
Again, best to remember that there will be a small, yet calculable, chance that, uninoculated you will serve as a vector for someone else getting the flu.
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The reverse of that is called "herd immunity". That there are enough immune members of the community that there too few carriers and too few susceptible members for an outbreak to take off.

Vaccines don't have to be 100% effective. They just have to reduce the rate of re-transmissions enough to reduce the transmission below 1:1 (technically called the secondary attack rate, and there's a formula, but it's not needed for this discussion).
Above 1:1, you have an epidemic (growing problem). Below 1:1, you have a declining problem.

Added:
Transmission of an infection requires three conditions:
1 - an infectious individual
2 - a susceptible individual
3 - an effective contact between them

Vaccination reduces both the number of infectious individuals, AND the number of susceptible individuals. You can see how that would dramatically affect the secondary attack rate.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Again, best to remember that there will be a small, yet calculable, chance that, uninoculated you will serve as a vector for someone else getting the flu.

And that person will have a small, yet calculable, chance of dying.

If you're OK with that, no one will force you to get a shot.

Considering the really tiny risks involved with the vaccine, for me it remains the socially responsible thing to do, and a no-brainer.

YMMV.
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Yep, fine with that, it falls under the classification of "death by natural causes". While I would prefer my death certificate to read "death by misadventure", "natural causes" is fine as well. We will all have a death certificate on some day we cannot determine. To equate not getting a flu shot with murder is idiotic.
 
FastEddieB said:
Again, best to remember that there will be a small, yet calculable, chance that, uninoculated you will serve as a vector for someone else getting the flu.

And that person will have a small, yet calculable, chance of dying.

If you're OK with that, no one will force you to get a shot.

Considering the really tiny risks involved with the vaccine, for me it remains the socially responsible thing to do, and a no-brainer.

YMMV.
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If I remember correctly last year the flu vaccine was only 65% effective. That means that even the innoculated are vectors for someone else to get flu. Can you get flu from a toilet seat?
 
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Sleepingsquirrel said:
If I remember correctly last year the flu vaccine was only 65% effective. That means that even the innoculated are vectors for someone else to get flu. Can you get flu from a toilet seat?
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65% effective because the inoculation failed to stop the targeted strain? Or 65% effective because there were strains that weren't targeted by last year's vaccine?

A vaccinated person isn't a carrier for the strains s/he is vaccinated against. As they aren't vaccinated against all strains, they logically are unvaccinated against other strains and can get ill from those.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
65% effective because the inoculation failed to stop the targeted strain? Or 65% effective because there were strains that weren't targeted by last year's vaccine?

A vaccinated person isn't a carrier for the strains s/he is vaccinated against. As they aren't vaccinated against all strains, they logically are unvaccinated against other strains and can get ill from those.
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This was informative:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm
 
Henning said:
Yep, fine with that, it falls under the classification of "death by natural causes". While I would prefer my death certificate to read "death by misadventure", "natural causes" is fine as well. We will all have a death certificate on some day we cannot determine. To equate not getting a flu shot with murder is idiotic.
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Most of the time yes. If someone sick with influenza knowingly exposes a very elderly person or someone with a number of severe diseases (cystic fibrosis, severe congestive heart failure, etc) and that person is infected and dies as a result then we have at least negligence. If someone dies as the result of carelessness from any case it may be considered criminal. It is usually not possible to point the blame at somebody with a respiratory illness but some people with sexually transmitted diseases have been held accountable for infecting others. A person with tuberculosis can (in some states) be imprisoned if they do not submit to treatment. There are usually signs at hospital entrances during flu season telling people to go away if they have respiratory symptoms.
 
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Henning said:
You did by innuendo.
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Did not mean to - sorry if I left that impression.

There are numerous small acts and even act of omission that can lead to harming others up to and including their deaths.

That is a far cry from murder, however, so I did not use that word nor did I mean to imply it.

I did say I would feel guilty if someone got sick or died because of actions I chose to take or not take.

That's all.
 
denverpilot said:
Sounds like a failure of a whole lot of people inside to maintain their Hippocratic Oath?
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I don't get your point? It makes a lot of sense to prevent sick visitors from infecting patients. Anybody can come in to the ER for an evaluation.
Also, the average person has no idea what's in the Hippocratic Oath.


I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art — if they desire to learn it — without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but to no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this path and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
 
I was under the impression you were saying some hospitals ban sick people with respiratory symptoms.

You're smart enough to figure that out if you're smart enough to become purposefully obtuse on the intent of the Hippocratic Oath.

So does the dumb sign only pertain to visitors?
 
denverpilot said:
So does the dumb sign only pertain to visitors?
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Yes. Potential patients who are not already admitted must enter through the ER.
What they are saying is, if you are sick, stay out! Get treated at your doc or the ER, but don't come in and walk around the hospital and expose patients and staff.
 
PilotAlan said:
Yes. Potential patients who are not already admitted must enter through the ER.
What they are saying is, if you are sick, stay out! Get treated at your doc or the ER, but don't come in and walk around the hospital and expose patients and staff.
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Thank you for explaining the obvious to somebody who is more intent on being adversarial than interested in the reason for the restriction. There are plenty of people in a hospital that would get much sicker or die if they contract influenza.
 
PilotAlan said:
Yes. Potential patients who are not already admitted must enter through the ER.
What they are saying is, if you are sick, stay out! Get treated at your doc or the ER, but don't come in and walk around the hospital and expose patients and staff.
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I had the impression they had the signs up at all entrances and even the ER from the original post.

Hospitals are incredible germ factories. The resistant MRSA stuff really bothers me. I really don't want to spend any significant time in one.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
... but if it is so safe then why is Monsanto spending so much money to keep it from being labeled as genetically altered foods?
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Because people who go by "beliefs" rather than "science" or "evidence" won't buy it, and because they're in business to sell their products?
 
PilotAlan said:
The reverse of that is called "herd immunity". That there are enough immune members of the community that there too few carriers and too few susceptible members for an outbreak to take off.

Vaccines don't have to be 100% effective. They just have to reduce the rate of re-transmissions enough to reduce the transmission below 1:1 (technically called the secondary attack rate, and there's a formula, but it's not needed for this discussion).
Above 1:1, you have an epidemic (growing problem). Below 1:1, you have a declining problem.

Added:
Transmission of an infection requires three conditions:
1 - an infectious individual
2 - a susceptible individual
3 - an effective contact between them

Vaccination reduces both the number of infectious individuals, AND the number of susceptible individuals. You can see how that would dramatically affect the secondary attack rate.
Click to expand...

John Ringo compared epidemiology to the game of Go, or Othello. Surround the sick individual with healthy and immune people, and you have a declining problem. Still sucks to be the person who contracted the illness, but stuff happens.
 
denverpilot said:
I had the impression they had the signs up at all entrances and even the ER from the original post.
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They do, but the ones have at ER usually have different verbiage that if you have symptoms, to immediately notify the triage nurse.
The guy with the broken hand still has family come with them, with sick kids or sick family, exposing everyone in the waiting room and the people in the ER.
 
denverpilot said:
I had the impression they had the signs up at all entrances and even the ER from the original post.

Hospitals are incredible germ factories. The resistant MRSA stuff really bothers me. I really don't want to spend any significant time in one.
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Tell me about it. I caught tuberculosis when I was a medical student from a patient I took care of in the emergency department. Fortunately my immune system contained it and no evidence of active infection. To reduce my risk for active disease down the road I had to take an antibiotic for months.
 
Gary F said:
Tell me about it. I caught tuberculosis when I was a medical student from a patient I took care of in the emergency department. Fortunately my immune system contained it and no evidence of active infection. To reduce my risk for active disease down the road I had to take an antibiotic for months.
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Argh. TB. That's bad nowadays too.

Karen wants to move from home care to wound care and that means more hospital time.

I'm not a fan but I haven't said anything to her about it. It's her dream.
 
denverpilot said:
Argh. TB. That's bad nowadays too.

Karen wants to move from home care to wound care and that means more hospital time.

I'm not a fan but I haven't said anything to her about it. It's her dream.
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Multidrug resistant TB is being imported from foreign countries and is very scary. Those of us who were infected years ago have an immunity that may come in handy someday.
 
Back on topic.
It is now November. This is the time to get that Influenza inoculation (shot) kiddies :D
Earlier was too early as the immune response is time limited and wanes come early March (tail end of the Influenza season).
And December is a bit late for having enough immune response for the early wave of Influenza in late December (changes from year to year).
Remember, what is loosely called the "flu" is is a hundred different viral infections (common colds) not the Influenza. When you catch the real thing you will know it - you will be begging someone, anyone, to put you out of your misery - as opposed to merely being sick.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread drift.
 
Dr. O said:
Back on topic.
It is now November. This is the time to get that Influenza inoculation (shot) kiddies :D
Earlier was too early as the immune response is time limited and wanes come early March (tail end of the Influenza season).
And December is a bit late for having enough immune response for the early wave of Influenza in late December (changes from year to year).
Remember, what is loosely called the "flu" is is a hundred different viral infections (common colds) not the Influenza. When you catch the real thing you will know it - you will be begging someone, anyone, to put you out of your misery - as opposed to merely being sick.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread drift.
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Before we start drifting toward which is better Ophra or Ellen..... :rolleyes:

I've been getting regular flu shots since I was in the Navy... Yes, the ships I was on used sail power. :no: Get the shot, and quit whining about it and stop with the tin foil hat crap.
 
I recommend doing your own research instead of blindly following one doctor with strong beliefs.
 
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I get a flu shot every year for the past 35 or so years. When I was younger I caught the flu almost every year and routinely had fevers north of 104. I don't ever want to be that sick again.
 
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