FlightPro question

A

airheadpenguin

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
495
Location
New Hampshire
Display Name
Display name:
airheadpenguin
I had submitted a couple of support inquiries through the Contact Us page for FlightPro in December, without a response which was odd for them.

Today I got the following:
For any technical support or other issues regarding FlightPro, please contact Shane Gordon directly at swgordon@babalaw.com. No messages will be forwarded and neither Avilution nor any of its affiliates will be responsible for technical issues or any damages resulting from your failure to properly contact Mr. Gordon directly. Thank you for your patience.

It looks like babalaw.com is Baba & Gordon a Texas law firm, which smells like they were on the losing end of some patent trolling. Anyone with more insight?
 
Same thing happened to me today, and I also sent in emails a couple of weeks ago. I posted it on the Red Board here. Not sure if you have access, but there is speculation that Baba & Gordon may be involved with FlightPro's bankruptcy and are collecting customer names.
 
Oh I hadn't heard they were bankrupt! That's a bummer they really had the best product out there but somehow I don't see the receiver being interested in innovation or even keeping up with ForeFlight
 
Not sure they are bankrupt, that's just one of the things we're speculating on over on the Red Board. But I became suspicious a month ago when there hadn't been an update since early November, and then when I wrote to support in mid January, I didn't get a response. FlightPro had been good at updates about every month, and they (he) responded to emails usually within hours. So I thought something must be up. Today's lawyer email confirms that something is wrong but at this point, we can only speculate.
 
Something fishy is going on. According the Google....

This is a brand page for the FLIGHTPRO trademark by Aviation Mapping Solutions Inc in Houston, TX, 77058. Write a review about a product or service associated with this FLIGHTPRO trademark. Or, contact the owner Aviation Mapping Solutions Inc of the FLIGHTPRO trademark by filing a request to communicate with the Legal Correspondent for licensing, use, and/or questions related to the FLIGHTPRO trademark.
Abandonment Notice! On Tuesday, January 20, 2015, status on the FLIGHTPRO trademark changed to ABANDONED-FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE. Apply Now for this name starting at $159!
CAUTION: Although federal registration for this particular filing is inactive, the mark may still enjoy common law rights, or may have been applied for again in a separate application. Further research may be warranted to determine where this mark is truly abandoned in commerce.

Status Update! On Tuesday, January 20, 2015, status on the FLIGHTPRO trademark changed to ABANDONED-FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE.

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for FLIGHTPRO by Aviation Mapping Solutions Inc, Houston, TX 77058. The USPTO has given the FLIGHTPRO trademark serial number of 86218386. The current federal status of this trademark filing is ABANDONED-FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE. The correspondent listed for FLIGHTPRO is SHANE W GORDON of BABA & GORDON LAW OFFICES, 1100 NASA PKWY STE 307, HOUSTON, TX 77058-3356 . The FLIGHTPRO trademark is filed in the category of Communications Services . The description provided to the USPTO for FLIGHTPRO is Communication services, namely, transmission of voice, audio, visual images and data by telecommunications networks, wireless communication networks, the Internet, information services networks and data networks; Telecommunication services, namely, transmission of voice, data, graphics, images, audio and video by means of telecommunications networks, wireless communication networks, and the Internet; Transmission of information by data communications for assisting decision making.

ABANDONED-FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE 1/20/2015
Estimated Response Deadline: 2/25/2015



 
airheadpenguin said:
Looks like they missed their 2/5 chart update. Any pireps on Garmin pilot?
Click to expand...

Yea, mine prompts me that it is out of date, and I select "yes" to update. Unfortunately every time you run the app, you get the same prompt, so I think it is downloading the old data.

I'm doing a full evaluation of iFly right now and it looks very promising.
 
There's more here than meets the eye, the website and app still being live is a massive liability. Lawyers are usually good at minimizing that
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Yea, mine prompts me that it is out of date, and I select "yes" to update. Unfortunately every time you run the app, you get the same prompt, so I think it is downloading the old data.

I'm doing a full evaluation of iFly right now and it looks very promising.
Click to expand...
I ran iFly GPS for a month and was very, very impressed. Not only with the app itself but the company and the commitment to improving the app (which has its roots as a Garmin competitor before the iPad). If you haven't yet, sign up and participate on their forum.

I don't know what the future holds but if I were to give up ForeFlight, iFly GPS would be my #1 choice.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
Something fishy is going on. According the Google....

This is a brand page for the FLIGHTPRO trademark by Aviation Mapping Solutions Inc in Houston, TX, 77058. Write a review about a product or service associated with this FLIGHTPRO trademark.
[/B]
Click to expand...
That is pretty much meaningless. It involves a trademark registration, not the health of the company. Assuming it's accuracy, and without checking the record itself, what it most likely says is that the Avilution/FlightPro folks applied to register the FlightPro trademark. They received a response from the US Trademark office (an "Office Action") saying it was not registerable for some reason. Could be anything from a minor technicality to a claim that some other similar product is already using it.

Sometimes companies fail to respond to one of those for various reasons.

The lack of response to users being reported here means a lot more than the technicalities of trademark registration.
 
I received a message from Shane Gordon, General Counsel for FlightPro, explaining that there is some sort of dispute among the developers of Avilution, now FliglhtPro. Mr. Gordon promises to be back in operation by next week with updates and a new development team. Let's hope so. FlightPro is a pretty nice product at a reasonable price.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Yea, mine prompts me that it is out of date, and I select "yes" to update. Unfortunately every time you run the app, you get the same prompt, so I think it is downloading the old data..
Click to expand...
I was having this issue yesterday. Now I understand why.
 
Here's the letter

Dear FlightPro Users and Supporters,

When FlightPro was launched in April 2014, it was the culmination of the amazing work of many experienced pilots and other professionals to create the next generation, flight planning and navigation app. Since then we have released multiple updates and have many more planned that build on this vision, we are certain FlightPro has an exciting future ahead.

However, we have had numerous challenges over the past several months with our legacy developers from Avilution. This group struggled to support FlightPro’s growth inline with our mission and vision, putting FlightPro well behind its planned development path.

Last week, in a deliberate act by the group, they refused to push out chart updates and misdirected users in where to submit support requests. This group’s actions do not reflect the mission of FlightPro, and we therefore apologize for any confusion and inconvenience resulting from this.

Support will be back up and running next week including chart updates, with a dedicated support team that is excited and ready to get going to answer the backlog of questions and support requirements. Please continue to send support requests to support@flightpro.com

Our number one mission is to support our pilot community and your safety is a priority as we strive for the continuation of this mission.

Thank you for your support and your understanding.

Fly smart, fly safe —
Shane Gordon
General Counsel
 
Are they allowing data updates now?

Yesterday when I selected "Yes" on the database download message, it brought me to a screen that wanted me to buy a subscription, even though mine is paid up till 2/28. Last straw. I'm out.

Just bought iFly for my Android. If FlightPro gets their act together, I'll reevaluate in a year.
 
I got that email as well, I guess because long ago I tried Avilution for about 10 minutes on an Android device, and that was the last I'd really heard of it. How is it related to FlightPro? Do they have separate products, or they were bought out, or what?

Regardless, with the number of competitors out there and the reliability we look for in a flying app this seems like a virtual death sentence for the product and a legal mess for the company and former developers.
 
As far as I can tell no updates are rolling yet but I can still login. At this point my plan is to stick it out until my renewal in November and see what alternatives are around
 
I tried to update my charts and procedures again today with no joy. To make matters worse, all of the approach and departure plates were deleted when I tried the update. Now I have nothing. This is just plain bad juju. Even if FlightPro manages to reappear, my confidence in the company has been broken and losing the support of your customer base is the ultimate kiss of death for any company.
 
I just bought a FlightPro sub in December, which I'm regretting...

I've bought Garmin Pilot today, and it looks awesome.
 
Anyone with Pacer access? I assume the original devs are getting sued for trashing the brand at this point
 
Re: FlightPro / Avilution status

Hi guys (and girls - women fly too, and maybe some of you are) -

I'm a lawyer and ATP pilot, and have been using Avilution/FlightPro since it debuted. A couple of thoughts for all of you about the current state of affairs:

1. I received the same email from Shane Gordon that all of you did. Have checked the federal PACER records -- no lawsuit showing with Avilution or FlightPro as a party, but they could either be in state court or in federal court under a different legal entity name. I've also checked a national case database and there are not any reported cases with either FlightPro or Avilution in the caption. I'm in process of trying to contact Gordon and will post an update when I do.

2. I assume many of you are advanced/professional aviators and use this app for real flying as opposed to just hobby. Thus we should all hope that Shane's "we'll be back up and running next week" email was true, and this problem will get fixed ASAP, because FlightPro is a great app. If I were still flying I would use it exclusively for IFR charts, etc. BUT -- obviously it's only any good if reliably maintained and updated, which of course remains to be seen.

3. For example, at any time after the 2/05/15 chart expirations, if you were using FlightPro for IFR you would be seriously in trouble because you couldn't legally file and depart without current charts. Practically you might be OK but obviously very bad practice to do so (especially to unfamiliar airports), and you would get violated if ramp-checked (or dead if you flew an approach that for some reason was no longer any good - unlikely but possible).

4. Some of you, like me, may have recently renewed your subscription. Check with your credit card issuer -- many (like AmEx) will let you dispute the charge and get it credited back to your account. Besides not paying for something you aren't getting, this may help push the people involved to get this situation fixed.

5. It may be that it doesn't get fixed, in which case a class action on behalf of all subscribers who haven't received all or part of what they paid for would be appropriate, although if the principals have spent the money and don't have any assets they may not be worth suing. BUT - one asset they still have is a great app and subscriber base, which if put in the right hands would be worth something. So stay tuned.

6. Right now I'm using an anonymous profile and email but will answer any and all inquiries, and compile a mailing list for anyone who wants updates direct instead of checking the board. EMAIL is: BillEmanon@gmail.com. Be glad to hear from you.
 
ATP Lawyer, you went through a lot of trouble creating a POA account and the posting above, which in my opinion, contains some inaccuracies designed to stir up people. Do you, did you, or do you plan to have any sort of relationship whatsoever with any party associated in any way with AMS, FLightPro, Avilution, et. al., and if you so, can you tell us what that relationship was, is, or will be? And lastly, what is your motivation for the above post?
 
Last edited:
Hi JohnA,

1. Not a lot of trouble.

2. No "inaccuracies" intended, and none I know of. You didn't say what you thought was inaccurate -- please do so and I'll respond.

3. No connection whatever with Avilution, FlightPro, or anyone associated with them.

4. My interest is just as a professional pilot and lawyer who a) would like to see FlightPro survice, but b) if not want to get a refund and see others do so as well.

What about you? Who are you and what's your interest?
 
ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct 7.2 Advertising
(a) Subject to the requirements of Rules 7.1 and 7.3, a lawyer may advertise services through written, recorded or electronic communication, including public media.​
***
(c) Any communication made pursuant to this rule shall include the name and office address of at least one lawyer or law firm responsible for its content​
.

ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct 7.3 Solicitation of Clients

(c) Every written, recorded or electronic communication from a lawyer soliciting professional employment from anyone known to be in need of legal services in a particular matter shall include the words "Advertising Material" on the outside envelope, if any, and at the beginning and ending of any recorded or electronic communication, unless the recipient of the communication is a person specified in paragraphs (a)(1) or (a)(2)​

This is fantastic! I'm working on a Legal Ethics in Social Media presentation I'm giving next month. I'll use this post as an example.
 
Last edited:
Hey Mark,

1. Not advertising. Did you see an offer to represent in my post?

2. To avoid embarrassing yourself at your upcoming presentation, be sure you've thought it all the way through.

3. Whose side are you on? Do you like paying for unreliable services?
 
Appreciate the response.

ATP Lawyer said:
2. No "inaccuracies" intended, and none I know of. You didn't say what you thought was inaccurate -- please do so and I'll respond.

For example, at any time after the 2/05/15 chart expirations, if you were using FlightPro for IFR you would be seriously in trouble because you couldn't legally file and depart without current charts. Practically you might be OK but obviously very bad practice to do so (especially to unfamiliar airports), and you would get violated if ramp-checked (or dead if you flew an approach that for some reason was no longer any good - unlikely but possible).
Click to expand...

An Android tablet with FlightPro, current or not, cannot keep you out of "serious trouble" or put you into trouble. If you are an ATP I suspect you know that, and by implying that it can cause grief on a ramp check or cause "dead", looks like you are trying to stir up us "victims".

ATP Lawyer said:
What about you? Who are you and what's your interest?
Click to expand...

My name is John A Johnson, and I live in Flippin, AR, just like it says on the left. In contrast, before replying to your post, I searched for and couldn't find any reference to a lawyer named Bill Manon, Bill Emanon, William Manon, or William Emanon, and I could find no reference to any Emanon or any William or Bill Manon in the FAA Airman Database.

My interest in this matter was to share info and learn about the status of FlightPro but I refocused this morning in the hope of exposing ambulance chasers or FlightPro insiders posting anonymously for their own benefit.

So if I am off base and you are indeed posting to provide advice/help to fellow pilots, I sincerely apologize. But not for suspecting nefarious motives from a lawyer, because that's natural :)
 
ATP Lawyer said:
Hey Mark,

1. Not advertising. Did you see an offer to represent in my post?

2. To avoid embarrassing yourself at your upcoming presentation, be sure you've thought it all the way through.

3. Whose side are you on? Do you like paying for unreliable services?
Click to expand...

3. Irrelevant and immaterial.

2. How would I embarrass myself by showing the post and asking for comments and impressions?

1. That's the question, isn't it? Is "I'm a lawyer and we ought to start thinking about a class action so contact me at this anonymous email address" advertising or not? I think it's a great discussion question for a social media ethics presentation, don't you?
 
Last edited:
JohnAJohnson said:
In contrast, before replying to your post, I searched for and couldn't find any reference to a lawyer named Bill Manon, Bill Emanon, William Manon, or William Emanon, and I could find no reference to any Emanon or any William or Bill Manon in the FAA Airman Database.
Click to expand...

Be fair - he said it was anonymous

Bill Email anonymous.

You should be better at recognizing acronyms :D
 
Hi John,

I am an ATP, with about 4,000 hours jet/propjet, almost all of which is single-pilot in all sorts of weather and environments.

I mean this as kindly as possible, but your statement that "An Android tablet with FlightPro, current or not, cannot keep you out of "serious trouble" or put you into trouble" is simply not correct. If you carry two tablets (Google Nexus 7 for me), both fully charged and with current FlightPro (or other) charts, those charts are exact copies of the paper charts and approach books and are 100% legal for IFR flight. The FARs require IFR approaches to be made using current letdown procedures but they do not require those copies to be in paper format.

Two tablets will not fail at the same time. I haven't done a comprehensive survey but I expect way more than half of all airline and corporate operations are now fully electronic. Digital charts are far quicker to access than paper, take up less space and create less cockpit clutter, and can be zoomed in poor light to read fine print.

What I said about "serious trouble" had two points -- first, that you aren't legal to fly IFR if you don't have current charts, and a professional pilot won't be employed long if he/she tells the boss "sorry, can't go - no current charts -- my app broke." Second was obvious -- flying an outdated approach chart is like busting minimums -- sooner or later it will catch up with you.

The overall average quality of lawyering has certainly decreased over the last 30 years. That doesn't mean all lawyers are crappy. One thing is sure -- when you're run over by an 18-wheeler your wife won't need a Republican politician who thinks all lawsuits are frivolous. Tell her to call a trial lawyer.
 
I won't argue IFR requirements but will say there must be a reason why expensive, certificated, panel equipment can be found in aircraft flying terminal and enroute IFR. Whodathunk... Just replace all that stuff with a $200 tablet and call it a day.

ATP Lawyer said:
when you're run over by an 18-wheeler your wife won't need a Republican politician who thinks all lawsuits are frivolous. Tell her to call a trial lawyer.
Click to expand...

Good point. I would never have thought to equate a software company defaulting on an update to getting flattened by a truck.

We have a vibrant, competitive aviation app world for both Android and iPad, and for $70/year, I'll take my chances. If I get screwed so be it. Soon that company will cease to exist and the market corrects and remains vibrant, all without lawyers. But once lawyers get involved, we'll instead pay $200 a year and have fewer choices. I prefer the way it is and I really don't need someone to stand up for me.

But to end on a positive note, I hear the bladder/vagina sling mesh guys are doing pretty well these days - might want to throw in with them. I wonder if they are being called "vagina chasers"?
 
Last edited:
So they missed an update and are possibly in a dispute with the original development team? What else is going unsupported? I wouldn't trust this product after that event, I'd be asking for my money back and running as fast as I can to another product. Foreflight is pretty damn good and their support is excellent. No, I am not affliated with any of the parties.
 
Hey John,

I'm sorry but I guess I didn't make myself clear. I'm not suggesting the tablets replace panel-mounted nav eqpmnt or FMS. The tablets with FlightPro or similar EFB-type apps replace the paper IFR enroutes and approach plates. Pf course you must have panel mounted equipment to be legal for an IFR approach but you the info (freqs, courses, DH/MDA, etc) off the plate. Yes, there are panel-mount units that contain all that too but you really wouldn't go IFR with just that, would you?
 
No, the "vagina chasers" (your phrase, not mine") are all sitting in the airport lounge telling lies about flying exploits.
 
Hey Mark,

You asked "Is "I'm a lawyer and we ought to start thinking about a class action so contact me at this anonymous email address" advertising or not?". Answer: NO, at least not if you aren't soliciting business for yourself or someone else. I'm not looking to represent anyone, nor am I looking for business for any other lawyer. I don't practice in Texas. It's a lot of work to gin up a lawsuit, and I wouldn't want to represent you in any event.

You took my original post, which was to inform, and ran way out into left field with it.
 
"Bill," just so you know, I took your original post as soliciting plaintiffs for a potential class action. A class action that I anticipated would be a typical garbage class action, since I assume everyone who bought FlightPro did so with a credit card and can just get their money back through the bank if necessary.
 
ATP Lawyer said:
Hey Mark,

You asked "Is "I'm a lawyer and we ought to start thinking about a class action so contact me at this anonymous email address" advertising or not?". Answer: NO, at least not if you aren't soliciting business for yourself or someone else. I'm not looking to represent anyone, nor am I looking for business for any other lawyer. I don't practice in Texas. It's a lot of work to gin up a lawsuit, and I wouldn't want to represent you in any event.

You took my original post, which was to inform, and ran way out into left field with it.
Click to expand...
I didn't do anything but quote ethical rules about advertising and suggest your post raised a interesting question. What you refer to as "left field" wasn't me - it was the others here. Note Lindberg's comment. I wonder how many other regular members of the local "public" had exactly the same "out in left field" perception?

So, to continue the purely academic discussion, is the existence of an advertisement dependent on what the speaker intended, what the listener understood it to be, or a bit of both? What's the analysis if the issue is whether something is legal advice or not?

Just asking the question. One I ask myself almost every time I post something on a legal or regulatory matter.
 
Hello Lindbergh,

You said,
Lindberg said:
"Bill," just so you know, I took your original post as soliciting plaintiffs for a potential class action. A class action that I anticipated would be a typical garbage class action, since I assume everyone who bought FlightPro did so with a credit card and can just get their money back through the bank if necessary.
Click to expand...

Nope. I've done some, and the defendants always had your response (garbage, frivolous, etc). But the pepole they screwed were pretty glad to get paid. Like I told JohnA, when you have it happen to you you won;t be calling your local Republican chairman, because he's probably an insurance defense lawyer or adjuster like you. No, you'll be calling someone like me to help you. And you know what? They will, but they'll secretly gloat because you'll have to swallow your pride and arrogance.

As for your "assumption" that everyone can get their money back, maybe they can but maybe they don't even know they have that right. It's amazing what people don't know. And if they wait too long they lose the right to dispute the charge. But maybe you already knew that too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top