Flight simulator

Martin257

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Martin257
Thinking about buying a flight simulator software to help with training. Have heard it could be a good investment and save noticeable amount of cost and time. What are your views on this if i may ask and how realistic and how beneficial are they?
 
For primary training?

It's fun, and if that appeals to you, go for it. But claims about "savings" are incremental at best. The things it helps don't take long. The things you spend most of your time on (like getting the flare and crosswind correction right) it doesn't help at all and can hurt. For the most part, it's pretty neutral.

The one exception is VOR navigation, but that's a small (but essential) part of your training. Some people have trouble grasping it without physical practice, others don't. There are dedicated VOR training apps that may be more appropriate, but a flight simulator can do it.

Now, for instrument procedures training, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. But that's not where you are, right?
 
Hi, thanks for the comment. It isn't where I am no but this debate has been raised and currently looking for ways to help my training. I have my text books and will fit in as many hours i possible could in a given month. I am currently hopeful that I will pick things up fairly quickly and progress smoothly through the course.

Thanks again.
 
I'm an X-plane guy. It is well worth the $, and you will find it to be the most realistic out of all there is available to the consumer market.

I can honestly say it saved me at least $1,000 (which is about 8 hours of wet rental time)

Now I use it for emergency training, and when I am flying to an airport that I have never flown to. When I'm not using it for that, I have an 11yr old that graduated ground school with me, and he just completed his first Solo Flight, as well as a "mini x-country". (Mini x-country = less than 50 miles)

We are a little unique down here as our closest public airport is 47 miles away, so it doesn't count for an official X-Country. Our next closest public airport is about 97 miles away, and it's all across shark waters :) No flying over land for us!!


Sent from my iPhone using An APP that doesn't pay me to advertise for them.
 
Have heard it could be a good investment and save noticeable amount of cost and time.
Where did you hear that, and what were the qualifications of the party from whom you heard it?

What are your views on this if i may ask and how realistic and how beneficial are they?
Minimal at best, and potentially negative. Primary training is mostly about physical control of the airplane, and the sort of flight simulation devices you can afford (unless you have millions to spend) don't help there. The devices are great for learning instrument flying and complex systems operation, but not primary flight training -- especially not if they are not type-specific. As for operating something like a G1000 system at the primary level, you can be taught as much off the PC simulator by a qualified instructor as you can off a $10K aviation training device.
 
That's odd, I learned to fly with PC-based sims and the skills came across nearly 1 for 1 when it came to my primary training. Left is left, right is right, up is up and down is down. The seat of the pants sensation is missing in the sim, but that's ok, it's just easier when you have it.

Yes, the amount of force you exert on the yoke is completely different between a C172 and a CH Yoke (PC), but then, the amount of force I exert in the Lancair is different than the force on my friend's Cherokee 140, which is different than the Dakota, the DA-40 and DA-20 that I used to fly. And yet, the brain adapts, within about a second, to each.

I think primary training is as much about situational awareness as it is stick and rudder skills.

As long as you approach the sim as its own unique make and model, I think there's tremendous benefit at all stages of training.

Need a data point? I've lost count of how many sim junkies went on to primary flight training, during which their instructors commented on what a massive head start they had.

The one negative item is a overly heavy reliance on instruments, rather than looking out the window, something that can be corrected quickly with one lesson of flying with the instruments covered up. Well worth the trade to arrive at your primary training with knowledge of radio work, airspace, ground operations, incursion avoidance, pattern work, pilotage, VOR navigation, ded reckoning...the list goes on forever. Even better, take what you learn from your real lessons and apply them to your sim practice at home. That way, you arrive at the next lesson (which might be a 1, 2, or 3 weeks later in some people's cases) fresh and ready.

I think a lot of people who are down on simulators might draw their opinion from archaic training devices that run at low frame rates, with awful flight models. You know, like half of the BATD's sitting in the back of flight schools that are gathering dust that are wheeled out when an instrument student comes along and asks if they can use it to save some cash.

Modern sims running on decent hardware with nice visuals can do amazing things. Can I point to a study? No. But, I do personally know more than 10 people who have done it (myself included), and have read about at least 30 more over the years.

The one thing I genuinely got no help with from the sim was steep turns, now that I think about it...but other than that, every other maneuver and thought process was replicated quite well in the sim. It's not surprising that steep turns are a bit dodgy in the sim, it's one of the few maneuvers where you it really helps to feel the G. You CAN do them in the sim, but they're not overly helpful, because the technique you'll use in the airplane is markedly different, so there's little point practicing them.

One caveat, if you treat it like a game, and not the airplane, then you're wasting your time. Lean the mixture, pull the prop back, work those lights. Do it every time and it'll be natural when you fly the airplane.
 
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Thinking about buying a flight simulator software to help with training. Have heard it could be a good investment and save noticeable amount of cost and time. What are your views on this if i may ask and how realistic and how beneficial are they?

Im a recently certified private pilot. I have been using Flight Simulator X long before I started flight traing. Stick and rudder skills don't translate very well from the home sims. BUT I was able to pass my checkride with 45 hours in my log book thanks to skills acquired from the sim.

Pros:
-Accurately represents what you see on your gauges. You can see what coming in too fast does to your landing. You can practice those engine RPM settings. You can see how the DG turns while turning your airplane. You can see what rudder does to the turn coordinator. Learn how to properly lean mixture. Learn the Garmin 430 GPS
-Online ATC communities do wonders for practicing radio comms. And they are free!
-very realistic physics. You can spin in the sim. Or better yet really experience how hard it is to get the C172 to spin. It will teach you that stalls are not something to be afraid of. You can see how cross winds affect landings. You can see how density altitude and over gross weight don't mix.
-it's a must for practicing IFR procedures. Just to give you that CRM or single pilot resource management practice
-you can set up situations you would never fly in real life. Go ahead and fly into a cloud to see how disorienting it can be.
-watch the VOR needles dance as you fly over the cone of confusion.

Cons
- stick and rudder skills don't translate well. You don't have that pressure on the yoke
- the planes may not be modeled with all the buttons and switches you have in your plane.
-money used does not go towards actual flying


Conclusion:
I had pilot friends tell me that flight SIM is negative training. But it's so much fun and cheaper than flying. I believe that yes It may be negative for stick and rudder skills but there is so much more to flying than that. You can learn almost everything else in the sim. It's worth it just to see how the avionics work and react to the conditions you throw at the plane. I would say buy the sim. You can see most of the benefits with the software program and a $30 joystick.
 
I'm personally a fan of flight sims. I do think I probably saved some money on rental fees and ground school by using FSX/X-Plane and companion information like the FSX for Pilots book...plus I just enjoy using them, so it's a win/win to me.
 
Plain and simple fact: If you talk to a CFI that's 40 or older (maybe 50 by now), they will tell you that Flight Sims are bad for you.

If you talk to a CFI that still has some useful years left in him, they'll encourage the use of flight simulators for some facets of learning, and won't trot out the "bad habits" line.

I recommend X-Plane, and the use of VATSIM through x-squawkbox to learn radio calls. Also, I recommend you read the AIM for communication strategies to implement, since not everyone follows the book.

(NOTE: I didn't read any responses above so that I can later claim that I wasn't calling anyone in specific out, but I know how these threads go: "Uuuurrrggh....my arthritis is kicking in, and you shouldn't use simulators! In my day we used a string as a TC and we liked it!")
 
Thinking about buying a flight simulator software to help with training. Have heard it could be a good investment and save noticeable amount of cost and time. What are your views on this if i may ask and how realistic and how beneficial are they?

Whenever my instructor suggested I go home and chair-fly a maneuver, I fired up the flight simulator.

Simulators have a long history:

19400208_Link_Trainer_Diploma.jpg
 
I've logged around 6,000-ish simulated hours on MS Flight Sim, having been at it since I was a pre-teenager and MSFS was in its infancy. I recently started "real world" flight training again after a 13 year hiatus (and 10.5 original hours logged) and I'd like to think that at least some of the upkeep of my flying skills can be attributed to using the sim - but it certainly helped me maintain a passion for flying all of those years I couldn't log "real" time.

Pilot Nick covered just about everything I'd say regarding the pros and cons. However, I would *definitely* second the mention of the online virtual ATC networks. In my time on the sim, I've logged in excess of a 1,500 hours on VATSIM and its predecessor, SATCO, not as only a pilot but also as a "virtual ATC". This has given me a huge opportunity to practice phraseology and even the understand and practice the regs - in fact, my CFI has commented on this numerous times. Last week, for instance, I got my first "real" taste of the Denver Bravo and it felt right at home - no anxiety, no trouble understanding what was going on, just fun - the way it should be! (cheap plug - video of that flight here).

Additionally, (also mentioned by Pilot Nick) the sim - and specifically add-ons like the Reality XP Garmin simulations (450/530) - have given me the opportunity to familiarize myself with the avionics in the trainer I'm flying without running the Hobbs. This has undoubtedly saved me time and frustration.

As far as which sim to use: X-Plane is the best as far as dynamics and physics go. MS Flight Sim is the more widely used platform and Prepar3d is emerging as a legitimate contender, too.
 
My experience with ms FSX was that during my initial training- not really valid for most everything. That being said the two/three hours I spent flying "IFR" between two airports I planned on flying after I got my ticket (1500-10000 cloud cover) did wonders for two things- my "scan" hoodwork (after getting back in a real plane) and my VOR/radio nav.

I was able to fly to a 98nm away airport in the sim with no visual reference to anything aside from the gauges. It was stressful, tough and fun at the same time. It was also very satisfying to break through the clouds and see the airport I was intending to go to. Did I follow IFR rules- no idea, not my objective at the time. Did I learn the "scan" absolutely. Did I learn VOR's- absolutely. I used three VOR's to make the sim flight- now having a PP ticket - and making that trip often, I use the same VOR's sometimes to get there. (God knows when I might really need them) Am I the greatest FS pilot (or real pilot) - absolutely not, but I strive to be the safest pilot I can be. FS's helped (and still occasionally helps) me with radio nav and the "hood work" scan. I'm sure it does more for some and much less for others.
 
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Thanks for comments. I think I will consider buying x-plane etc because it would be fun. I think that it would be good to hone skills on the controls and awareness especially. Some comments mention the fact that the feel of the plane is not comparative to the SIM which would be disappointing.
 
I think the jet guys have more knowledge of this but the type of simulator that is useful (realistic) for primary training, i.e. basic flight skills, isn't something that you're going to run on a PC and stick in your basement, even with full yoke and rudder controls. I do IFR currency approaches occasionally on a full commercial version X-Plane setup with controls. Flight dynamics just aren't quite like a real plane. That applies to IFR flight too, except that I think it's a valuable tool for instrument work since you're using most of the same skills and it's harder if anything in the simulator. VOR and ILS tracking? Great training tool. Unusual attitude recovery? Forget about it.
 
I'm personally a fan of flight sims.
so am I. I got several type ratings in sims without ever setting foot in the airplane. Part of that productivity may be due to concentrating on the training rather than wasting time playing with airplane video games on a personal computer.
 
Unusual attitude recovery? Forget about it.

My experience was different. The very first time we tried recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood during primary training, my instructor tried everything he knew. When we were done, he specifically said, "well, I guess that sim does help after all."
 
I'm an X-plane guy. It is well worth the $, and you will find it to be the most realistic out of all there is available to the consumer market.

I can honestly say it saved me at least $1,000 (which is about 8 hours of wet rental time)

Now I use it for emergency training, and when I am flying to an airport that I have never flown to. When I'm not using it for that, I have an 11yr old that graduated ground school with me, and he just completed his first Solo Flight, as well as a "mini x-country". (Mini x-country = less than 50 miles)

We are a little unique down here as our closest public airport is 47 miles away, so it doesn't count for an official X-Country. Our next closest public airport is about 97 miles away, and it's all across shark waters :) No flying over land for us!!

I didn't know an 11-yo could solo (legally)
:dunno:

(NOTE: I didn't read any responses above so that I can later claim that I wasn't calling anyone in specific out, but I know how these threads go: "Uuuurrrggh....my arthritis is kicking in, and you shouldn't use simulators! In my day we used a string as a TC and we liked it!")

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Good one Nick!
 
Pilot Nick covered just about everything I'd say regarding the pros and cons. However, I would *definitely* second the mention of the online virtual ATC networks.

Two things Nick failed to mention WRT pre-ppl "self-training" on a PC sim:

1) PC sims seem to generate pilots who tend to focus inside the cockpit more than outside and that can be a difficult habit to break. That said, it's possible this isn't a big issue with today's hardware/software which can provide a much more realistic external view. Of course, unless you have something really fancy with multiple projectors and big screens or the equivalent setup using several large displays you're not going to learn how to scan the sky.

2) When pilots train themselves they're likely to form some bad habits that will have to be overcome in the "real" world.
 
Both true. The first is fixable in one flight (at least it was with me). The second, well, it depends on how many mistakes they're making, I suppose.

I did find that I was able to get more focused in the sim once I started flight training. For example, once I started XC prep in real world, I was able to practice that in the sim, whereas prior to that point, I didn't have the knowledge I needed to do it.

In other words, I certainly didn't arrive on Day 1 knowing everything as a result of using sims, but I had a head start. Once my training started, it helped me practice techniques between lessons.
 
Two things Nick failed to mention WRT pre-ppl "self-training" on a PC sim:

1) PC sims seem to generate pilots who tend to focus inside the cockpit more than outside and that can be a difficult habit to break. That said, it's possible this isn't a big issue with today's hardware/software which can provide a much more realistic external view. Of course, unless you have something really fancy with multiple projectors and big screens or the equivalent setup using several large displays you're not going to learn how to scan the sky.

2) When pilots train themselves they're likely to form some bad habits that will have to be overcome in the "real" world.

#1 is easy to fix - cover the instruments. Problem solved.

As for #2 - I will simply say this: If someone can safely fly from point a to point b, navigate properly, fly the airplane with precision, and land/takeoff safely, then I believe the "bad habits" you refer to may actually be indicative of a broken system.

Like trying to "fix" someone who has a different scan pattern - if it works, it works, and everyone needs to just let it work.

I truly believe if we didn't pigeonhole everyone into the EXACT same processes, and instead allowed people to fly the way that fits best to them, we'd have mean time to license reduce, and you'd see more successfully completed students.
 
Nick, I think you haven't thought that through.

If you allow flight simmers to fly the way they "want" (and remember, I was once a heavy flight simmer myself), you'll have a lot more midairs and the fundamental rule of VFR will break. See and avoid requires looking out the window. You'll also have a lot of gear up landings. Not everyone flies fixed-gear. And sims don't have consequences to flying into turbulence over Vno, overspeeding the engine, or forgetting cowl flaps. Or even wheelbarrowing down the runway.

I'd also suggest reading up on hazardous attitudes. This one is "antiauthority."

What did I spend the bulk of my training time on? Getting the mechanics of landing down is #1. Spotting other aircraft and airports is #2 -- these are FAR too easy in a sim, and real airports in farm country look just like large industrial farms with runway markings that you can't see from a distance. #3 would be dealing with psychokinetic illusions. Sims have some, but they are vastly different. Pilotage just doesn't work in a sim, as the landmarks are totally different. #4 was ATC. There are some sims available for that, but quality is all over the map. Getting a 10 year old controller that doesn't know what "line up and wait" means is not helpful. Getting a veteran controller but only in LA airspace works best if you train in LA airspace, and doesn't help you with the really important local procedures you need otherwise. But good luck reporting over the cement plant for KSQL (as nearly every approach there does) when your sim doesn't have a cement plant.

What did the sim help? Basic VOR navigation was easy. More advanced is another story -- there is much more to it than tracking to a station. I knew what most of the instruments did, and I knew how to tune the radio (but not how to use it correctly), and got a few bad habits about the nav radio such as skipping the ident. Talking to FSS over a VOR is not done on a sim.

So, maybe it saved a few hours. But then there is the cost of the sim and undoing the bad habits. I still say it's a wash.

Now, sims can be fun, especially when you can't fly a real aircraft due to weather or expense. But it is a fundamentally different experience in very many ways.

And blaming this on age....jeez. That's the age-old complaint that them geezers don't know anything. Except when you get over 30, you start to realize that that equation was backwards....

I work with technology every day. I'm a systems engineer. That means I have to understand the limitations of the technology; a fanboy SE is a really bad SE.
 
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Nick, I think you haven't thought that through.

If you allow flight simmers to fly the way they "want" (and remember, I was once a heavy flight simmer myself), you'll have a lot more midairs and the fundamental rule of VFR will break. See and avoid requires looking out the window. You'll also have a lot of gear up landings. Not everyone flies fixed-gear. And sims don't have consequences to flying into turbulence over Vno, overspeeding the engine, or forgetting cowl flaps. Or even wheelbarrowing down the runway.

I'd also suggest reading up on hazardous attitudes. This one is "antiauthority."

What did I spend the bulk of my training time on? Getting the mechanics of landing down is #1. Spotting other aircraft and airports is #2 -- these are FAR too easy in a sim, and real airports in farm country look just like large industrial farms with runway markings that you can't see from a distance. #3 would be dealing with psychokinetic illusions. Sims have some, but they are vastly different. Pilotage just doesn't work in a sim, as the landmarks are totally different. #4 was ATC. There are some sims available for that, but quality is all over the map. Getting a 10 year old controller that doesn't know what "line up and wait" means is not helpful. Getting a veteran controller but only in LA airspace works best if you train in LA airspace, and doesn't help you with the really important local procedures you need otherwise. But good luck reporting over the cement plant for KSQL (as nearly every approach there does) when your sim doesn't have a cement plant.

What did the sim help? Basic VOR navigation was easy. More advanced is another story -- there is much more to it than tracking to a station. I knew what most of the instruments did, and I knew how to tune the radio (but not how to use it correctly), and got a few bad habits about the nav radio such as skipping the ident. Talking to FSS over a VOR is not done on a sim.

So, maybe it saved a few hours. But then there is the cost of the sim and undoing the bad habits. I still say it's a wash.

Now, sims can be fun, especially when you can't fly a real aircraft due to weather or expense. But it is a fundamentally different experience in very many ways.

And blaming this on age....jeez. That's the age-old complaint that them geezers don't know anything. Except when you get over 30, you start to realize that that equation was backwards....

I work with technology every day. I'm a systems engineer. That means I have to understand the limitations of the technology; a fanboy SE is a really bad SE.

Which authority am I "anti?" Certainly not CFIs, because they have no authority beyond the normal PIC authority.

I also think that learning to look out the window is definitely necessary - but any "bad habits" associated with how to fly, provided the flight is done safely, is not necessarily a "bad habit."

edit: Also, I'm over 30, and not necessarily a spring chicken anymore. I also recognize that as I get older and find the younger generation doing things differently, that its different, but not necessarily wrong.

Except they're lazy.
 
Which authority am I "anti?" Certainly not CFIs, because they have no authority beyond the normal PIC authority.

Huh? Say WHAT?

Can you repeat that with a straight face?

Your CFI decides when you are ready for your exams. Your CFI decides when and under what conditions you can solo. Your CFI decides what procedures are important in order to make those decisions.

Think, then type.

You also misunderstand what "antiauthority" means. It means disregarding rules (including rules of thumb) made by others with more experience, just because you think you know better.
 
And sims don't have consequences to flying into turbulence over Vno, overspeeding the engine, or forgetting cowl flaps. Or even wheelbarrowing down the runway.

Haven't tried wheelbarrowing, but MS Flight Simulator does simulate the effects of stress - on FSX there are check mark settings for "Aircraft stress causes damage" and "Engine stress damages engine". A net search shows some players are annoyed when they turn on turbulence and then find their airplanes breaking up in cruise!

Pilotage just doesn't work in a sim, as the landmarks are totally different.
Could you give a specific example? I have not found any discrepancies between what appears on at least the FAA sectionals I use for my local area and what appears on the screen while flying FSX (although I do have a scenery add-on for the pacific northwest that improves things beyond that which shipped with FSX.)

#4 was ATC. There are some sims available for that, but quality is all over the map. Getting a 10 year old controller that doesn't know what "line up and wait" means is not helpful. Getting a veteran controller but only in LA airspace works best if you train in LA airspace, and doesn't help you with the really important local procedures you need otherwise. But good luck reporting over the cement plant for KSQL (as nearly every approach there does) when your sim doesn't have a cement plant.
This looks like an argument against pilotedge.com ATC simulation because it can't be relied on to provide an environment conducive to rote memorization of all one's own local procedures. Applying the same reasoning to all the books and audio training aids that are sold that claim to help master radio communication pretty much leaves only the radio work done while the Hobbs meter is running.

And blaming this on age....jeez. That's the age-old complaint that them geezers don't know anything. Except when you get over 30, you start to realize that that equation was backwards....
I'm a young 57 year old who doesn't trust anyone over the age of 77. Or under 37. Oh heck - I might as well say I don't trust anyone.

I work with technology every day. I'm a systems engineer. That means I have to understand the limitations of the technology; a fanboy SE is a really bad SE.
I think I can one-up you in a small way regarding anti-tech fan-boyism: I don't even own a cell phone! However, I do have an undergraduate degree in fizziks, with and without using straws. Started writing computer programs in high school - in 1973. HP 2000. Teletypes. Stone knives and bearskins.

Seriously though - I don't know of any published studies that support some of the assertions being made regarding use of simulators. Mostly anecdotes and strong opinions. Sac Arrow has already posted links to past discussions on this and we seem to be repeating ourselves here. My post in one of those threads listed the few studies I could find that seemed partially relevant:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1169402&postcount=42
 
Two things Nick failed to mention WRT pre-ppl "self-training" on a PC sim:

1) PC sims seem to generate pilots who tend to focus inside the cockpit more than outside and that can be a difficult habit to break. That said, it's possible this isn't a big issue with today's hardware/software which can provide a much more realistic external view. Of course, unless you have something really fancy with multiple projectors and big screens or the equivalent setup using several large displays you're not going to learn how to scan the sky.
Yep - the potential is definitely there. Though, with advances in aircraft and scenery, my experience has been that most simmers no long fly with 2D, instrument only views of their panels. This has (fortunately) pushed one's viewpoint out the windows, through true VFR flying is somewhat less popular, with most people preferring to drill holes in the sky with their PMDG 737's. As far as the scenery goes, there's a couple of developers offering satellite-imagery based ground scenery which really helps make VFR flying in the sim believable. But, as I mentioned, I would agree that the world of flight sim remains a largely airliner flying, IFR-based environment.

2) When pilots train themselves they're likely to form some bad habits that will have to be overcome in the "real" world.
Bad habits, for a true student of aviation, should be curable when taken as feedback or advice - obviously not everyone is like that tough. I would add that it's not so much the formation of bad habits but rather a sense of "I know that already" where people can get in trouble bridging the FS -> RW gap. I definitely fell into that trap myself. After 20 years of flight sim I decided to (re)start my PPL earlier in the year and went into it feeling "I know a lot about flying, I can handle this." While that was true about many of the basic things and especially about communicating with ATC (mostly in an IFR environment, but also not everyone uses VATSIM/IVAO/PilotEdge though) I quickly realized how much of a knowledge gap I had and found myself learning what I felt I should have already known.

As a high-time sim pilot (6,000+ hrs) and a very low time "real" pilot (25.5 hours), I've discovered the following areas to which I really had little or no exposure:
  • With the sim there is no need to know the regs. The FAA does not exist and there obviously is no such thing as TOMATO FLAMES to worry about. My airplane was always airworthy in the sim.
  • My exposure to the environmental aspect of a flight was minimal (winds, DA, turbulence - even with real world weather programs were of little consequence)
  • Even basic knowledge of aerodynamics was not required
  • Aircraft systems are just code and pixels, not something that can fail or indicate erroneously.
  • Landings in the "real world" take skill and finesse that sim pilots can't properly develop and a go-around in the sim was pretty much unheard of.
  • Flight sim is just a whole lot easier.

But, is it a good way to develop a basic understanding, hone phraseology, learn the basic ins-and-outs of some avionics, and generate a passion for flying? For me it sure was. But - it's still a game. I don't pick up a copy of Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2012 and immediately think I can transition from that to wacking an 8-iron 195 yards on my way to a three under par round... FS should be taken with the same grain of salt IMHO. :yes:
 
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Haven't tried wheelbarrowing, but MS Flight Simulator does simulate the effects of stress - on FSX there are check mark settings for "Aircraft stress causes damage" and "Engine stress damages engine". A net search shows some players are annoyed when they turn on turbulence and then find their airplanes breaking up in cruise!
Yep, I've seen that. It's VERY rudimentary. But the really risky stuff -- pilot induced oscillations -- aren't there. I've never been able to make the airplane bounce more than once or twice in FSX. IRL, you can, and have to actively stop it.

Could you give a specific example? I have not found any discrepancies between what appears on at least the FAA sectionals I use for my local area and what appears on the screen while flying FSX (although I do have a scenery add-on for the pacific northwest that improves things beyond that which shipped with FSX.)
In FSX, at my home airport (KPAO), the missing reporting points are SLAC, Stanford Stadium, KGO radio towers, the Cement Plant, and Shoreline Amphitheater. That's most of them.
This looks like an argument against pilotedge.com ATC simulation because it can't be relied on to provide an environment conducive to rote memorization of all one's own local procedures. Applying the same reasoning to all the books and audio training aids that are sold that claim to help master radio communication pretty much leaves only the radio work done while the Hobbs meter is running.
That's right. No simulator substitutes for the real world in this regard.
 
#2 -- these are FAR too easy in a sim, and real airports in farm country look just like large industrial farms with runway markings that you can't see from a distance. #3 would be dealing with psychokinetic illusions. Sims have some, but they are vastly different. Pilotage just doesn't work in a sim, as the landmarks are totally different. #4 was ATC.

There are some sims available for that, but quality is all over the map. Getting a 10 year old controller that doesn't know what "line up and wait" means is not helpful. Getting a veteran controller but only in LA airspace works best if you train in LA airspace, and doesn't help you with the really important local procedures you need otherwise. But good luck reporting over the cement plant for KSQL (as nearly every approach there does) when your sim doesn't have a cement plant.

Airports in FSX are too easy to spot. They're more realistic in X-Plane, especially at night. For example, at night, you can basically only spot the beacon, unless you're pretty well aligned with the runways, at which point the runway lighting becomes visible. Not all sims are created equal, don't paint with too broad of a brush.

Regarding ATC, same deal. Yes, there are quality issues on some networks, which is why they have such a bad rap with the r/w pilot community, however, a payware ATC network exists specifically to counter that issue, so again, not all ATC simulations are created equal.

Pilotage is absolutely possible in X-Plane using sectional charts. Lakes, rivers, roads, train lines, and changes in topography are all there, providing you with most of what you need to get the job done? Specific landmarks might be missing, but the concept is there, and it ABSOLUTELY builds chart interpretation skills. Bends in roads, curves in lakes, they're all there.

Lastly. to imply that ATC communications aren't useful if they aren't local is off the mark, imo. I used to fly out of SQL, and I know they ask you to report the cement plant. If local references were the ONLY thing tripping up new students, then you'd be right, a simulation with local refs would be of limited use, but I think that premise is patently false. Students commonly have mic fright, completely lock up, have no idea what to say, in what order, and no idea, conceptually, how these transactions take place.

Pattern work? Flight following? Bravo transitions? Class D transitions? Lots of work to be done there, not much of which requires local references to practice those concepts.

Will they need to know local references at their local airports? Sure. But that doesn't meant you can't train without 'em.

A recurring theme with people who aren't fans of flight simulation is a lack of willingness to compromise. Just because something doesn't perfectly replicate all aspects of every single flight doesn't mean it isn't a useful training aid.

Think of the model planes on a stick that are used in ground schools, or any other visual aid. They all have their place. I think the sim is a great compromise when you pick and choose what to use it for. That, and I wouldn't write off entire areas of knowledge (pilotage, ATC, etc) just because there might be some differences. If there's negative transfer, then I agree, that needs to be acknowledged and minimized, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and realize that not all sims and sim-related services are identical.
 
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A recurring theme with people who aren't fans of flight simulation is a lack of willingness to compromise. Just because something doesn't perfectly replicate all aspects of every single flight doesn't mean it isn't a useful training aid.

A recurring theme with people who enjoy sims is to apply more usefulness than is actually there, to the point of giving atrocious advice.

I am a fan of flight simulation. It's a lot of fun. But I won't project that onto flight training. It has very limited use for primary training.

You can take each one of the missing pieces individually, and usually say it's minor. But there are a LOT of missing pieces.

I gave you a list of what I spent most of my time on in training, and the flight sim experience didn't help significantly. Most of the hard work was in stuff not simulated.

There is some use for flight simulation in training, but it is quite limited, and you're not doing people any service by being such a complete advocate. It is much more useful for instrument training.
 
I guess we'll have to disagree on what some of the missing pieces are. There are sims out there that support failures really nicely.

No disagreement on the IFR, that's traditionally been well matched. I just think it has the potential to be more useful for primary training than most people realize.
 
I would *definitely* second the mention of the online virtual ATC networks. In my time on the sim, I've logged in excess of a 1,500 hours on VATSIM and its predecessor, SATCO, not as only a pilot but also as a "virtual ATC". This has given me a huge opportunity to practice phraseology and even the understand and practice the regs - in fact, my CFI has commented on this numerous times.

Can you elaborate on this a little more and how one would go about getting their simulator setup for this? PM if you don't want me to drag the thread off topic:)
 
Spoke to my instructor about the impact of flight simulator and he was adamant that this will cause myself to pick up bad habits, that will not help when I fly the real thing. Well that's that then.
 
Spoke to my instructor about the impact of flight simulator and he was adamant that this will cause myself to pick up bad habits, that will not help when I fly the real thing. Well that's that then.

Please ask him to provide reputable proof to you so that you can distribute it more widely.
 
<-- Huge fan of flight sims (as mentioned previously), and I had been using them for many years before any flight training or, for that matter, ever sitting in a small airplane. I just checked my logbook and my hours to solo is listed as 7.8. Now that's just a single data point, and not actual data, but I certainly don't consider myself to be any sort of Bob Hoover, and this is with overcoming a fear of flying when I first went up.

I personally can't see how having some knowledge of general aviation aircraft prior to taking lessons can be construed as a negative. If I was concerned about learning something incorrectly, and having to re-learn it, I would just use a book like Microsoft Flight Simulator X for Pilots (which I did). All that said, if you don't have any personal interest in computers, simulations and technology then maybe it's not worth messing with. For me, I really just enjoy PC sims in general, so there was less of a decision for me to make.

At the end of the day, flying is supposed to be an enjoyable endeavor, so I just want to wish you much success in your adventures in becoming a Private Pilot. I know that it has been a wonderful experience for me, and I wish you the same joy and success as you move forward.
 
I have found home sim time (with the cheaper Saitek yoke and throttle quadrant and Pilotedge) quite helpful in practicing IFR in IMC, both for approaches and cross countries. My IR instructor has encouraged me to continue using the sim, and has said that he sees marked improvement between lessons when I spend time practicing approaches etc.

Having said that, I find the sim complete crap for taxiing and landing, not to mention stabilizing in a climb, descent, or at altitude. The sim and controls are simply far touchier than a real aircraft. I am sure I can tweak it to be better, but since I'm basically approaching the sim like it is a real time math problem requiring split focus, the flyability of the sim itself doesn't concern me much.

For the record, I'm using XPlane 10 on a newer Mac mini with this:

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/yoke.html

Since I'm flying in a modified 172SP sim (with flip flop radios - the stock 172 kinda sucks), I use the prop control as rudder and didn't bother with the expense of adding rudder pedals.
 
Sims are great for IFR work, so so for VFR.

I use FSX with the third party nav updates for IFR brush up work.

Check craigslist for the CH yoke and pedals, of a set on their for $75ish


FYI those redbirds everyone is SOO crazy about, they run FSX or lockheeds P3D (basically a tweaked FSX)
 
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