on my Jabiru 3-4 knots
Flight school implementing some pretty harsh new rules
- Thread starter FLYGUYRY
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flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, but it turns out the breakers Cessna uses are rated for as many cycles as the switches by the same manufacturer. So, dunno where that pile o' BS came from.
denverpilot
Tied Down
FAA. There's even a SAFO on it. Go ask them, I didn't write it. They at least couched it and said, "If the manufacturer approves..." Cessna however... "Doesn't approve." Thank their lawyers. ;-)
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you want that 50 hour wonder's first grass landing to be the time the engine stops? Do you want them to try to stretch it to a paved stretch of road where they're more likely to end up in power lines and hurting other people, or do you want them to be comfortable putting it down in a nice wide open field?
For me, I specifically trained at an FBO that allowed non-paved fields for those exact reasons... And if I had a flight school, I'd want the same thing. In fact, I would mandate that my students be given instruction at an unpaved field, and a few other things too (like how to fuel an airplane from a self-serve pump so they don't try stretching the tanks late at night...)
Sometimes, in the name of "safety", we actually make things less safe.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Klixon approves.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Also, I didn't mean to insinuate that you were making anything up... I mean that Cessna's restriction on pulling breakers is BS.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
He didn't say he was instrument rated, he said he's getting close. Two other things (GI Bill and 190-hour commercial) imply that he's using a Part 141 school. I don't know how quickly you can possibly do the IR in 141 these days, but I believe it was MTSU worked with the FAA to do a combined PP-ASEL-IA course that some students were able to complete both ratings in 65 hours.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Agree with you there, but the insurance companies rule that game for the most part. I haven't found a club anywhere in the metro here that's pushed back on that nor has any coverage once the wheels don't roll on "improved surfaces".
Privately owned, the insurer limiting that didn't even come up and isn't a limitation on ours. So at the end of the day, a new owner just needs to grab a CFI who's done it and go do it in their own ship for practice the first time.
It's a cycle. Can't do it because of insurance worrying that they have more losses, so nobody does it and there's no practice, so when someone does it the insurer has more losses...
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I call BS! Our club's insurance merely states that landings must be at an airport recognized by the FAA or the authority of the country it's in. Paved or not, public or not, matters not.
I would love one of our flight school owners like @Z06_Mir to post the part of their insurance policy that forbids off-paved landings. Insurance is frequently used as an excuse... But things get interesting when you ask to see the policy. I have literally never seen a policy that requires landings to be at a paved airport. I don't believe it exists.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I have seen worse - There is a place near me that requires *any* pilot going on *any* cross country flight to have their flight plan approved by a CFI. Also, when you're instrument rated, they don't allow you to shoot approaches! You're allowed to punch up through a deck, cruise in the clear, and descend through a deck but the bases have to be at least 3000 feet AGL! Finally, if you have the plane for 4 hours, you have to pay for at least 3 hours of flight time.
So, I voted with my wallet and went elsewhere, and I hope you do the same. Places with policies like this are killing GA.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Well as a newbie CFI somewhat shopping the local clubs to figure out what I can train people in, I'll be demanding to see actual insurance policies as part of that process. I'll let y'all know what I find out. Seeing those will not be optional.
Unless of course they make me pinky swear to not say anything or something. LOL. In such case, I'll just call you and tell you in person. Haha.
Ultimately it's the discretion of the owner. If he doesn't want to rent you, you're not taking the plane. Find another place that will let you rent for extended periods of time.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
FWIW, getting a bit OT here - Don't expect much. You'll likely need your own instructor policy. Our club covers our members as named insured, but the policy excludes them if they're giving instruction. I've gone back and forth with the insurance company about this - Wouldn't it be better if our members were being instructed by people who actually know these airplanes?!? - but they're adamant that there's no way we can cover instruction, even though the instructor is otherwise covered as a pilot and even though they're likely the best instructors because of that. They either need to bill through the FBO and be covered by the FBO's insurance, or they need their own policy.
Whether there is training on a grass runway given or not, most people's first off airport landing will be in an emergency. I don't personally think landing on a nice, groomed grass runway is terribly representative of what it is like to land on a road or in a field of some sort.
If a flight school has instructors they trust I would definitely advocate landing on grass during training, or maybe even off airport. What I wouldn't be enthused about is having renter pilots taking my airplane wherever they feel like without prior discussion and maybe some pilot evaluation. Having an open insurance policy and no rental rules restricting such use is almost a guarantee that you're going to be picking your airplane up from out of a remote airport or repairing unwanted damage at some point. Just like rental cars, rental planes get abused and it won't be long until you get a renter who will do everything, safe or unsafe, that is not listed as forbidden in the rental agreement. Abuses like these are exactly how some of the restrictive rental rules come about.
SbestCFII
Line Up and Wait
Doesn't seem either of these incidents would contribute to a distance limit on flights. That would be like congress requiring all airline pilots to have 1500 hours as a response to an accident where both pilots already had well above 1500 hours. They'd NEVER do that...right?
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Good for you, some times you just don't have it that easy. It must be nice for all you folks that live in driving distance of 9318309481209 FBOs to just pick and choose your aircraft. For those of us that don't, we either deal with the rules or we don't fly. Or..we buy our own plane.
Its great if you can be picky, but the schools around here have plenty of suckers to pay full price or more for mediocre planes. Just because some people demand more doesn't mean they are gonna get it.
I've grounded myself until I can afford my own plane basically. I tried the rental route for a year and it sucks...no thanks.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
No... But it'll hopefully give them enough confidence to not automatically go for pavement. Roads are a terrible place to land in an emergency - Power lines, signs, etc and people! Not to mention, most paved airport runways are at least 50 feet wide, while even an interstate highway is only about 36 feet including shoulders unless it's >2 lanes.
And that's perfectly reasonable, and it'll allow your renter pilots to increase their skill level and make good use of GA.
FTFY.
As stated by others above, that's part of what you accept by being in the business, and if you give your renters crap for making good decisions when they encounter bad weather or a mechanical, you're not doing yourself or anyone else a favor.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Definitely not expecting much.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
Normally I have always seen a clause in the rental agreement that the renter is responsible to cover the expense of retrieving the aircraft. If mechanical and repaired at the FBO expense, I'd make arrangements to fly it back. I'm paying anyway.
My insurance company does not prohibit grass runways. I prohibit my renters from utilizing them. All of my rentals, except the 182RG, have wheel pants. The grass runways here are not used often, and are not often mowed well to see ruts, and you could pretty easily rip off a wheel pant if you're not careful. I'm definitely not putting someone in my 182 on grass without training them there first. But that's my right as an owner, and I've lost 0 renters to the "no grass" policy. Seriously, unless there's a monster crosswind every airport around here has pavement that's a lot nicer than their grass.
Think about it this way... You own an airplane. You really like your airplane. Would you let someone that you met 1 time an flew with for 1 hour take it across the country, or onto grass, or take it without telling you the plan? Or would you want to know what he/she is going to do, and how safe they're going to be doing it in the airplane you love, fly, insure and otherwise pay for. I treat all 5 of my airplanes as if they are my first airplane (the 182RG). I get compliments daily about how nice and well kept my fleet is. That isn't an accident, that's doing my homework (rental checkouts) and enforcing reasonable policies.
MAKG1
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It could be possible in a part 141 school. Not easy, though. Miminums are 35 hours each for private and instrument rating, with no XC requirement.
I believe ERAU also has a combined private/instrument program.
Might also be non-US.
MAKG1
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It's not a coincidence that both my recent searches have been in the Lake Tahoe area and have involved nasty winds and weak aircraft (one was a 182, the other a Socatta TB-20, roughly equivalent to a 172).
Ravioli
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I'm not sure if it is part of the BS alarm, since it's only my experience, but at KFWS (Spinks) they have a [gasp] grass runway right next to a paved runway. When I was a student I was encouraged to use the grass with trainer aircraft because it was good experience AND shorter taxi to the barn.
I really doubt the insurance company comes into play on this.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
1800wxbrief online is your friend. Activate with your smart phone before takeoff and cancel before takeoff. Rule completed.
MAKG1
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Doesn't work unless your flight is under 30 minutes.
It's pretty easy just to cancel at the destination with that feature.
The issue is what do I file when I just want to fly 25-50 miles away, do some lazy sightseeing and return at my leisure when I have a plane with 5 hrs of fuel onboard? Like I said, I fly for fun, not go get from point A to point B and back to point A. Tough to follow their rules in that situation, but I do my best.
MAKG1
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No one says you have to follow your filed route of flight when VFR. It defeats the purpose of a VFR flight plan, but meets the rules, right?
Not to me. The first place had 3000' and I forget the visibility limit. No distance limit, just 3 hrs / day min; so if gone for 4 days and you flew 10 hrs, you got charged for 12.
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FLYGUYRY
Pre-takeoff checklist
He didn't say he was instrument rated, he said he's getting close. Two other things (GI Bill and 190-hour commercial) imply that he's using a Part 141 school. I don't know how quickly you can possibly do the IR in 141 these days, but I believe it was MTSU worked with the FAA to do a combined PP-ASEL-IA course that some students were able to complete both ratings in 65 hours.
Wow this thread really blew up! Yes I am in a part 141 University program and I work my butt off. I'll have about 90-95 once I'm ready to go for my check-ride at the end of the month.
As for the minimums, you have to have 37.9 at the school I'm at to go for your instrument ride. I actually could have done it sooner than where I am but I had to cancel my PP checkride 6 times so, I have some extra hours in my total time just practicing and keeping sharp for that. I was pretty much ready for my private ride at 42ish hours but didn't get it done till I had about 57.
starglider
Pre-Flight
Sigh. This is so classic GA "business owner." Here we've (presumably) got a flight school owner referring to an inexperienced pilot as a "50 hour wonder." You'll all say I'm overreacting and that it was just a term, but it is precisely the attitude that I've seen at flight school after flight school: arrogant owner-operators who treat their students with open contempt and care more about petting their precious airplanes (i.e. decrepit, barely airworthy single-engine trainers) than they do customer service.
That "50 hour wonder" you're so quick to dismiss is a new pilot. That's cool! He (or she) is someone who spent ten grand to learn how to fly and is, literally, the future of GA. That person probably has excelled at some seriously impressive things in life to be able to afford flight training and to have the personality to undertake it. The fact that he wants to go to a grass strip is cool! The fact that he wants to expand his experience is cool!
Instead of being excited to show that new pilot all of the great aspects of aviation (and grass strips are a seriously great aspect of GA), we sneer at the guy. You're a nobody until you've got a (ATP/Commercial/CFI/x thousand hours)---or basically whatever ticket/experience the person making the judgment has. Instead of thinking that here is a person who can learn tons of cool things at your school, you condescend to him and insult his lack of experience as if it's his fault that he's only got fifty hours.
The flight school gene pool is in serious need of some chlorination.
Just file a flight plan and put "Sightseeing around area A and area B" put the time for the longest anticipated time you'd be gone. It's just a guide to help someone come find you should you need finding.
According to your signature you're not a CFI, is that correct? If you are a CFI, are you an active CFI?
My favorite renter came to me with 80 hours. That's not a whole lot different than 50, so I'll use him as an example. He's polite, respectful, pays on time and although he's not the best pilot I've ever flown with he is safe and knows his own limitations. I like him and I very much enjoy having him as a customer despite his low time. If he asked to go to a grass strip with my airplanes with wheel pants I would still say no and offer him a lesson in something that doesn't have wheel pants. His personality is what distinguishes him from other renters, with much more experience.
Some of the scariest flights I've had are people with thousands of hours and all the ratings. Do you know how terrifying an Airbus pilot is when he steps into a 172 for the first time in 20 years? It's not pretty. Even worse though are B1 pilots... nothing like doing a touch and go with full flaps on takeoff and landing because he "forgot" that we slow down on the runway. But hey, after a couple laps around the pattern they get it figured out and they go on to enjoy GA very much. I appreciate those guys too, even though they have scared the crap out of me.
The 50 hour pilot doesn't know what he or she doesn't know yet. That's okay. And although I'm happy to let them learn and expand on their limits in my aircraft it will NOT be at the expense of my airplanes. Why should I give every renter the ability to go rip wheel pants off in unfamiliar, possibly unmanicured grass because someone on the internet said it would be valuable? If they want grass experience they get instruction in an appropriate aircraft for that. My argument is only against MY AIRPLANES on grass, not against my airplanes being rented by 50 hour pilots.But a 50 hour pilot often can't tell the difference between their skill level and what someone on the internet says they can do (aka land in grass no problem without training or knowing the strip).
And for the record, my generation is the future of GA and I'm incredibly passionate about that. I went to an airport GA meeting and I was asked what the average age of my students are, about 35. The other instructors were in the 50's for averages. I'm 26 years old. There is a reason that the younger people, the future, are coming to my facility.
KyleT
Pre-takeoff checklist
He didn't say he was instrument rated, he said he's getting close. Two other things (GI Bill and 190-hour commercial) imply that he's using a Part 141 school. I don't know how quickly you can possibly do the IR in 141 these days, but I believe it was MTSU worked with the FAA to do a combined PP-ASEL-IA course that some students were able to complete both ratings in 65 hours.
Likely this.
And if OP is training part 141 those limitations may be from the approved 141 course syllabus and TCO. The school I instruct at has similar limitations depending On the program the student is in. I'm shocked at 800' ceilings for an instrument rated student though. That's good that it's low. I've seen much higher typically.
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