Flight school implementing some pretty harsh new rules

[denverpilot]

On long vfr trips I would get all the sectionals out and tape them together in groups based on heading. Then I would cut them so the entire trip was on 1' wide map sections and roll them up. I would end up with little map scrolls that had my whole trip right down the center of the roll. Easy to use and keep organized. It was a lot of work in prep but when you're actually flying across the country vfr it was handy.

Hahaha that IS a lot of work! I think most of us just learned how to unfold and refold in the cockpit without mummifying ourselves!

 

[eman1200]

is "being afraid of long xc's" a thing?

 

[Ravioli]

The rulez make sense because it makes it more likely for the plane to be back and ready for the next student/renter.

Longer block times and longer flights allow more weather changes to occur and becomes a potential problem for the next person on the schedule.

So, as others have said, train with them but use someone else for when doing renting.

Sorry you can't do an AZBB style 1500nm x-country yet.

 

[azblackbird]

On long vfr trips I would get all the sectionals out and tape them together in groups based on heading. Then I would cut them so the entire trip was on 1' wide map sections and roll them up. I would end up with little map scrolls that had my whole trip right down the center of the roll. Easy to use and keep organized. It was a lot of work in prep but when you're actually flying across the country vfr it was handy.

@Tarheelpilot LOL... I did the very same thing. It's called a roll chart. We used them for motorcycle enduro racing. I never cut the sectionals up, but would mark down distances, times, landmarks, headings, frequencies, alternates etc. and roll it along as I progressed in flight. It was basically like have a GPS before GPS's were invented.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

So, my flight school just implemented a bunch of new rules which I think are pretty ridiculous but I wanted to get everyone else's opinion before I start looking elsewhere. I am a private pilot just about finished with my instrument rating. The new rental rules say that as a private pilot I can only travel a maximum distance of 100nm away (wtf) and can only fly a XC if the ceiling is at least 4000 feet and visibility is 8nm (wtf2). As an instrument rated pilot I can fly a whopping (gasp) 150nm with a minimum ceiling of 800 feet.

Now, I am still a young 83 hour TT pilot and there are plenty of flights I would not yet attempt, that being said I feel like being limited to 100nm is really excessive and it's making me think I should look elsewhere. Is this normal? Do any of you guys see these types of limitations? I feel like I am a student pilot again or something

That seems pretty ridiculous to me. But then again I think flight schools restricting you to only paved runways is absolutely absurd too, and I think almost all do that.

Ownership definitely seems better than renting and playing by silly rules.

 

[jordane93]

The rules may seem silly but it's the owners' discretion. If I ran a flight school I'd probably have pretty conservative rental policy. The school I flight instruct at has a relatively strict rental policy and limitations. We want to encourage more flight training and less rentals.

 

[JimNtexas]

If you want to use a GA airplane for reliable travel outside the local area then renting is almost useless. Daily minimums, constantly changing leaseback airplanes, not knowing what equipment will work on a given day, airplanes trashed by the previous renter all add up to a really unpleasant experience.

I you can't justify the full cost of owning your own airplane, then a multiple owner entity of some kind gives you a quantum leap in airplane usability and affordably compared to almost all FBO/Flight School rentals.

 

[Skywalker]

is "being afraid of long xc's" a thing?

Obviously not true for you as everyone can see in your signature map... But yes, I think many pilots are afraid to leave their well known traffic patterns...

 

[Mtns2Skies]

is "being afraid of long xc's" a thing?

Im only afraid of the $cost$ associated with long XC's

 

[Tarheelpilot]

is "being afraid of long xc's" a thing?

Unfortunately it is for some as I'm sure you already know.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I have seen this before.... it not new and I would assume we're going to see more of this in the future. My recommendation would be to talk to the owner/manager to see what they would require to give you and maybe some other pilots a waiver from the new rules...

Where I saw this, they wanted to see your flight plan for the 100 mile plus trip... after going through the drill a couple of times and working with the Chief Pilot of the flying school on an IPC I was good to go without the additional dispatch gymnastics

 

[ejensen]

When I was renting the wouldn't rent there trainers, 172, 152, 150. But they had a 177rg and a 182 that didn't rent much. I took them on several multi-weeks tripso with no daily mimimum.

 

[weilke]

...an idiot who does not want to deal with the hassle of renting planes too far from his base when crap goes wrong...which it will.

My comment was about the fact that he would give a renter who made a safety landing a hard time. When I had a mechanical issue away from base, the FBO owner sent someone to retrieve me and called the local shop to look at the stranded plane.

 

[weilke]

I was looking into schools up here for my brother-in-law who's looking to learn, and I looked up the owner in the airmen database: PP-ASEL. Someone who has never flown to go places and lacks even an instrument rating simply cannot have the experience to run a flight operation well.

Running a flight school is about
- marketing
- marketing
- organization
- recruitment
- marketing
- leadership
- maintenance management
- marketing
- finances / bookkeeping

None of these things are taught during an instrument or commercial rating.

 

[weilke]

Where I saw this, they wanted to see your flight plan for the 100 mile plus trip... after going through the drill a couple of times and working with the Chief Pilot of the flying school on an IPC I was good to go without the additional dispatch gymnastics

That sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course you don't want your trainers stuck in weather for days. Having your chief CFI go over a novice renters plans until they are confident that they know what they are doing makes sense.

 

[Z06_Mir]

It could be insurance mandated. Perhaps the insurance company said "hey if you don't do this we won't insure you or your rates will go insane" or "we'll give you a big discount if you do this"

Most flight schools make far more money from instruction than rental. That $50/hr you're paying for instruction? The CFI gets about $15 of it. The rest is pure margin. Flight schools can't screw aircraft owners (the schools rarely own the aircraft) as badly, so the margins are much narrower. As a consequence, they HATE it when a renter has a plane that could've been booked for instruction. A lot of flight schools have rules like this to discourage rentals. It has noting to do with safety, except perhaps preventing the owner from having a heart attack because a renter got stranded somewhere due to weather for a day.

Another common one is "oh, the insurance company requires 15 hours of dual in that 182 before you can rent it." Call their insurer sometime and ask about that. The real reason is that the owner wants to line his pockets with 15 hours of dual before letting you "waste" the plane for solo flights.

I think these days most schools are paying out $20-25/hr for instructors, the lowest I've paid any of mine is $20/hr but they're all above that now. So let me tell you where the other $30 goes... it's not "pure profit" -- That money goes towards INSURANCE including general liability, workman's comp, and of course instructional liability. Then there's OVERHEAD, keeping the lights on, updating computers, scheduling software, the hourly employees at the front desk, the fixed instructor salaries for full time instructors, benefits for those instructors, snacks/water for students/instructors.

Personally, I LOVE it when I get renters. Once they're checked out it's easy money. Renter takes airplane, renter pays bill. I profit without doing any work. When people rent they typically go for 1.2-2.5 hours at a time. I actually have my aircraft priced to make money. I make more on rentals than I do on instruction and again... no work. Less overhead for just renters. I don't have to stay in the office -- here's the key and let me know hobbs in. I can be at home enjoying time with my family rather than out in the sun instructing. There is a reason several flight schools in the country specialize in time building... it's profitable and requires less overhead per hour. If the company is smart they have airplanes geared more towards rentals and airplanes geared more towards training. I encourage renters to get checked out in certain airplanes because they're more available, aka less students are using them for training typically. Plus we utilize block rates to encourage people to rent more! I want my airplanes in the air, whether or not I'm in them.

Feel free to call my insurer about my rental policies for my 182RG. It absolutely says 10 hours in the INSURED aircraft. Plus 150TT and 25 complex. Even outside of insurance requirements, my airplane, my rules. But the pricing on the aircraft usually dictates who wants to rent it, so I don't have a lot of issues.

 

[TRocket]

I'm surprised to hear all these rules, where I rent, you pretty much take the planes wherever the hell you want

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm surprised to hear all these rules, where I rent, you pretty much take the planes wherever the hell you want

Same here, although one of the rental operations I use does require me to fill out a form if I'm planning to fly out of state.

 

[kkoran]

FAR 61.93. It's the FAA, not the school.

Bob

Bob...the OP already has his PPL and is working on his instrument rating and building hours for his commercial.

 

[TRocket]

Same here, although one of the rental operations I use does require me to fill out a form if I'm planning to fly out of state.

Where I'm at you can be "out of state" in about a 12 minute flight...so that's not a thing around here either haha

 

[G-force]

My rental place requires a flight plan to be filed and activated/closed on any flights over 25 miles away. Pain in the rear when 90% of my flying is putting around the local area and $100 burger runs within an 50 miles.

I'm surprised to hear all these rules, where I rent, you pretty much take the planes wherever the hell you want

 

[Palmpilot]

Where I'm at you can be "out of state" in about a 12 minute flight...so that's not a thing around here either haha

I can too, but it would involve flying out to sea!

 

[mtnflyr]

im on the border of CA/NV next to lake tahoe, and when i solo (pre ppl still) i just have to enter my route and stops.. im even allowed to cross the sierra nevadas to tour around lake tahoe. it would be kind of annoying to not be able to cross state lines, and have to file a flight plan with anything over 25nm which of course i dont go over because im still a student.. once i get my ppl flight following will likely be all i use.

 

[Ghery]

My flight school has a rule for student pilots stay within 25 nm of the home base for ppl. No idea about instrument. Think that 25 nm is pretty standard. And they require u to have flight following and active flight plan on your xc. For renting, someone just took my favorite bird to Seattle for a week

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25 nm rules out any XC flights. Student pilots aren't going to be able to complete the requirements before the check ride with that rule.

Our club requires a flight plan for any flight exceeding 100 nm from OLM or crossing the Cascades. That sort of requirement doesn't surprise me. I get FF if I'm not going IFR.

12 hours dual before soloing a 182? Who are they kidding? Again, no such requirement in our club, insurance or otherwise. When we had an Arrow the insurance required 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual if you didn't have time in type. I hit 100 hours dual and 10 hours dual in the Arrow at the same time years ago. Dumb luck. No longer an issue, we sold the Arrow a while back.

 

[ifly4fun]

Where I'm at you can be "out of state" in about a 12 minute flight...so that's not a thing around here either haha

Same Here, I'm practically in NC on an extended downwind.

 

[jsstevens]

25 nm rules out any XC flights. Student pilots aren't going to be able to complete the requirements before the check ride with that rule.

Our club requires a flight plan for any flight exceeding 100 nm from OLM or crossing the Cascades. That sort of requirement doesn't surprise me. I get FF if I'm not going IFR.

12 hours dual before soloing a 182? Who are they kidding? Again, no such requirement in our club, insurance or otherwise. When we had an Arrow the insurance required 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual if you didn't have time in type. I hit 100 hours dual and 10 hours dual in the Arrow at the same time years ago. Dumb luck. No longer an issue, we sold the Arrow a while back.

25nm unless signed off for a particular cross county flight is how the actual regulation is worded. What his flight school does I do not know.

 

[Caramon13]

It's a flight school first, airplane rental second probably. They want their planes around to achieve their primary business objective. If you are off flying three states away they can't do flight instruction in it. Plus with low time pilots, they don't want anyone bending metal or getting into bad situations.

Like others have said, if you are done training, go find a place that is an airplane rental first (aka club) and flight school second. You'll probably find they have a bit less strict rules about cross country flights and conditions.

You have to put stupid rules in place because stupid people don't know any better. It's a flight school for cripes sake. Would you let a toddler go wander around the road to learn how to walk? No, you'd put restrictions in place so they can only go so far and you'd watch them like a hawk.

Flight students are toddlers. You have to fence them in and give them a safe, happy environment so they can do as little damage as possible.

As another alternative, BUY your own plane. Then you can make decisions about when you fly instead of adhering to what you think are overly restrictive rules.

 

[Ghery]

25nm unless signed off for a particular cross county flight is how the actual regulation is worded. What his flight school does I do not know.

Exactly. But the poster didn't say anything other than the flight school said that student pilots couldn't fly more than 25 nm from the home drome. So I have to assume that the school takes the more conservative approach, which would make it very difficult for a student to finish.

 

[jsstevens]

Exactly. But the poster didn't say anything other than the flight school said that student pilots couldn't fly more than 25 nm from the home drome. So I have to assume that the school takes the more conservative approach, which would make it very difficult for a student to finish.

Which is why I said "What his flight school does, I do not know."

It does seem safe to assume they have a way of letting students finish...

 

[Palmpilot]

Exactly. But the poster didn't say anything other than the flight school said that student pilots couldn't fly more than 25 nm from the home drome. So I have to assume that the school takes the more conservative approach, which would make it very difficult for a student to finish.

Wouldn't that completely prohibit anyone from getting a pilot certificate through that school? That would lead me to conclude that he wasn't completely spelling out the details of the policy.

 

[Tantalum]

I would find a different place to rent from. 100nm for an airplane is extremely restrictive, especially if you are a certificated pilot. Part of the joy and appeal of flying is the ability to easily cover and discover new areas. In 2.5 hrs you can be a world away, even in a 100knot renter. Chances are the owner doesn't want his plane getting stranded far from home... but I mean, if you run a business renting planes that's part of the risk, like someone else said. If instead safety is your concern I have no problem with having renters show evidence of a flight plan, weight balance, etc.

and the new rules wouldn't have stopped that from happening.

Often times rules are made that don't necessarily provide a meaningful measure of preventing future similar incidents... they're more there as a kneejerk CYA... "look we made a new rule!"

**Reminds me of the "make GA great again" thread. Kind of saps the fun out of it for many people who can't afford to own their own plane if they can't really fly anywhere once they have their license... otherwise you're just burning money flying around a 25nm radius of the home airport

 

[bobmrg]

That seems pretty ridiculous to me. But then again I think flight schools restricting you to only paved runways is absolutely absurd too, and I think almost all do that.

Ownership definitely seems better than renting and playing by silly rules.

Flight schools do what their insurance carriers tell them to do when buying coverage.

Bob

 

[Z06_Mir]

Flight schools do what their insurance carriers tell them to do when buying coverage.

Bob

100% this.

And I don't allow my aircraft with wheel pants anywhere except pavement. And do I really want the 50 hour wonder experiencing his first grass runway in my airplane without an instructor? No, I probably don't.

 

[MIFlyer]

25 nm rules out any XC flights. Student pilots aren't going to be able to complete the requirements before the check ride with that rule.

Our club requires a flight plan for any flight exceeding 100 nm from OLM or crossing the Cascades. That sort of requirement doesn't surprise me. I get FF if I'm not going IFR.

12 hours dual before soloing a 182? Who are they kidding? Again, no such requirement in our club, insurance or otherwise. When we had an Arrow the insurance required 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual if you didn't have time in type. I hit 100 hours dual and 10 hours dual in the Arrow at the same time years ago. Dumb luck. No longer an issue, we sold the Arrow a while back.

Our club requires flight plan filed if over 100nm. 5 hours dual to use 182. 2x per year light flight review.

No flights greater than 100nm into Canada without prior permission from the board.

Good club, easy rules, but enough to help keep everyone proficient and safe


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mkosmo]

100% this.

And I don't allow my aircraft with wheel pants anywhere except pavement. And do I really want the 50 hour wonder experiencing his first grass runway in my airplane without an instructor? No, I probably don't.

It really shouldn't be a big deal... It's just grass. Since when did people get scared of dirt and wind up eating it?

 

[denverpilot]

It really shouldn't be a big deal... It's just grass. Since when did people get scared of dirt and wind up eating it?

Think he's more concerned about damage to the pants. Laying up fiberglass to fix them and repainting it is kinda a pain.

 

[mkosmo]

Think he's more concerned about damage to the pants. Laying up fiberglass to fix them and repainting it is kinda a pain.

With pants, sure, keep it limited to well manicured grass... but I would think the renters would have a vested interest in not having a huge repair bill to deal with. My comment was more tailored to the second statement which seemed to be more generic than pants-on.

P.S. pants off is the only way to live, both in the world and on my landing gear! The joys of working from home.

 

[Palmpilot]

How much difference do pants make in airspeed?

 

[bbchien]

83 ht TT and instrument rated? How did you do that?

 

[citizen5000]

im on the border of CA/NV next to lake tahoe, and when i solo (pre ppl still) i just have to enter my route and stops.. im even allowed to cross the sierra nevadas to tour around lake tahoe. it would be kind of annoying to not be able to cross state lines, and have to file a flight plan with anything over 25nm which of course i dont go over because im still a student.. once i get my ppl flight following will likely be all i use.

Minden is at the foot of the Sierras and S. Lake Tahoe. The area is considered local to that part of Nevada. As a student I would be cautious about climbing and crossing those mountains when you are alone. The rotor and mountain wave winds along that ridge are serious and you can get into real trouble very fast. Also, the air traffic over Lake Tahoe can get congested in the summer and if you are not monitoring or talking to Norcal you may run into trouble.

You may want to consider flying North toward Carson and East toward Silver Spring then North again toward Pyramid practice area and back again. A longer cross country would find you along with many students in that area flying to Hawthorne and landing then back again. Or flying up to Reno to practice controlled airspace radio over to Stead and back again.

Once you get your ticket you will get flight following if flying into CA or down the middle of Nevada toward Vegas. Norcal and Oakland center.