Flight plan using radial/distance

the400kid

the400kid

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I was recently given for the first time a flight plan using an FRD of CTY073015. My old navigator won't accept a fix like that but I am stymied on how to respond to it when given. When departing from an airport with a tower, do I say unable CTY073015, or should I ask to have it changed by the controller once airborne?
 
Busflyer said:
Just dial it into your VOR and use that.
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Not too practical when flying on a 300 mile journey and the autopilot is taking its cues from GPS Steering, which is executing the entered flight plan.
 
the400kid said:
My old navigator won't accept a fix like
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Newer ones can (you probably already knew that).
the400kid said:
When departing from an airport with a tower, do I say unable CTY073015, or should I ask to have it changed by the controller once airborne?
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That's a pretty literal example of "unable". I'd say it as soon as practical.
 
I need a little more detail. Are they giving you direct to that location from a random point in space as opposed to, say, via a VOR radial? If so, then you do need RNAV capability. In that case, the question is, what is the navigator? I know it's doable in the Garmins since the GNS. I even have a video showing it in a GNS 430/530, GTN and IFD.
 
You can put those fixes into Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight and find a bearing to it that way, but I’m not sure if that’s technically legal.

CD499D5D-EDF7-4B4D-9A5D-BA069362080B.jpeg
 
How about converting the fix to a lat/long ?
 
Ask ATC for a vector to the first fix then tell them when you’re able to go direct to another fix. Or just don’t accept the clearance.
 
the400kid said:
Not too practical when flying on a 300 mile journey and the autopilot is taking its cues from GPS Steering, which is executing the entered flight plan.
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What model of GPS?
 
the400kid said:
I was recently given for the first time a flight plan using an FRD of CTY073015. My old navigator won't accept a fix like that but I am stymied on how to respond to it when given. When departing from an airport with a tower, do I say unable CTY073015, or should I ask to have it changed by the controller once airborne?
Click to expand...

Do it on the Ground. It would be rude to spring it on the Departure Controller who might be kinda busy. And it could be considered a FAR violation. Accepting and flying a Clearance for which you do not have suitable Navigation equipment.
 
the400kid said:
I was recently given for the first time a flight plan using an FRD of CTY073015. My old navigator won't accept a fix like that but I am stymied on how to respond to it when given. When departing from an airport with a tower, do I say unable CTY073015, or should I ask to have it changed by the controller once airborne?
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What was the fix they gave you before CTY073015?

This type of problem was the bane of AF pilot training students. The “fix-to-fix”. Studs were required to navigate to PBDs in training and on their checkride. I always said it was illegal for our /A airplanes. Finally the AF got some sense and stopped requiring it.
 
If your GPS will connect with a Flightstream, Foreflight and the Flightstream will eat those up and send the coordinates to your GPS. Piece O' Cake.
 
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there's a gps fix at the same spot as the DME fix. ATC has a pretty ancient computer program that generates some very strange clearances sometimes. I had the same thing happen to me going through the NYC area and had the same challenges of how to program it, given the rest of the plan was all GPS based. Once I finished the flight, looked at the clearance and there was a gps fix in the exact same spot. It ended up all being moot as I got a direct-to about 10 miles after crossing JFK that eliminated a routing that had me crossing Long Island Sound three times to get to GON.
 
I threw it into skyvector just to see where the fix was. It's basically out in the middle of nowhere, over a swamp. Boston Kreme doughnuts are good.

Sure, you can click "nav log" here and get the lat long, but if they reroute you dynamically to somewhere else, you need to know how to enter this or update your flight plan equipment to say you can't. Maybe a comment that your equipment cannot accept vor radial distances?

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Hang 4 said:
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there's a gps fix at the same spot as the DME fix. ATC has a pretty ancient computer program that generates some very strange clearances sometimes. I had the same thing happen to me going through the NYC area and had the same challenges of how to program it, given the rest of the plan was all GPS based. Once I finished the flight, looked at the clearance and there was a gps fix in the exact same spot. It ended up all being moot as I got a direct-to about 10 miles after crossing JFK that eliminated a routing that had me crossing Long Island Sound three times to get to GON.
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Do I get a dollar or some donuts? Unless he misstated the radial distance, the green arrow is pointing to the CTY073015
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midlifeflyer said:
Do I get a dollar or some donuts? Unless he misstated the radial distance, the green arrow is pointing to the CTY073015
View attachment 94953
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You're right, I'm wrong - Does anyone say that on the internet? I watched your video on how to deal on a GTN, very helpful. So much capability in those units. I've had mine for 2+ years and still learning new things. BTW - I did the same thing on Skyvector....
 
midlifeflyer said:
Do I get a dollar or some donuts? Unless he misstated the radial distance, the green arrow is pointing to the CTY073015
View attachment 94953
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Yeah, I actually looked at various approaches to the local airports as well to see if any of the fixes corresponded. No dice. The closest I found was NITDI on the RNAV GPS-B. That’s CTY056015.
 
Hang 4 said:
You're right, I'm wrong - Does anyone say that on the internet? I watched your video on how to deal on a GTN, very helpful. So much capability in those units. I've had mine for 2+ years and still learning new things.
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Thanks for the kind words.

Hopefully the learning wont stop or worse, you'll think there's nothing else. I use things like that - capabilities I figure pilots don't know - on checkouts and IPCs. And I still get to learn something new from others.
 
the400kid said:
Not too practical when flying on a 300 mile journey and the autopilot is taking its cues from GPS Steering, which is executing the entered flight plan.
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You do know that you can hand fly the airplane, yes?

Would also like to know what the full clearance is.
 
What's the issue? That you can't put it in the autopilot?

Directions like this are used quite often when departing instrument from Santa Monica.. actually radials are surprisingly often used in the LAX area

As others have said though if there's some reason you can't navigate based on a radial there's nothing that requires you to accept the clearance
 
the400kid said:
Not too practical when flying on a 300 mile journey and the autopilot is taking its cues from GPS Steering, which is executing the entered flight plan.
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Hand fly? Use heading mode and make adjustments?
 
He's got a GTN750 in the panel looking at previous posts.
 
The400Kid never identified the GPS or navigator that he had installed. Most all GPS allow for entering user waypoints based on a fix, radial, and distance. The KLN90B only allowed latitude-longitude, but the KLN89B and after supported fix-radial-distance. All the Garmin GPS going back to the GPS150 allow entry of a user waypoint with a fix-radial-distance. The GNS430 family also supported specifying the intersection of two radials. So if the the400Kid would just answer the question posed several times in this thread, but never answered, he could likely be given an answer as how to accomplish this with his "old navigator won't accept a fix like that", especially if he just doesn't know how to do this. My KNS80 from the 1980's can do this as well.
 
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