Flight Following Question

Indiana_Pilot

Indiana_Pilot

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Flying "B"
I am planning on a 140 mile trip in the coming weeks and have a question about flight following.

I have attached the sectional screenshot of the trip. If I fly direct it takes me through Class B and C Airspace.

If I am under flight following I understand that I still need clearance to enter these airspace and flying over and under is not really an option. So what do you guys prefer to do ?

1)Request clearance through? (How likely are they to grant this?)
2)Fly on the outside of it? (How do I tell approach this when I near? Just that I will be staying just outside the Class B/C ?
3) Just totally stay away and fly a course that keeps me well outside? (How do I tell Approach this is what I am doing? Will they expect me to fly literally direct if I tell them I am direct to a destination ?)

This will be the first time flying to the Central KY area.. Anything else I should be aware of? Or any neat placed to stop at?

Thanks!
 

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Sorry, no screen shot in evidence. Why can't you fly under the shelf of a Bravo or a Charlie? Against your religion?
 
Firefighter_324 said:
1)Request clearance through? (How likely are they to grant this?)
2)Fly on the outside of it? (How do I tell approach this when I near? Just that I will be staying just outside the Class B/C ?
3) Just totally stay away and fly a course that keeps me well outside? (How do I tell Approach this is what I am doing? Will they expect me to fly literally direct if I tell them I am direct to a destination ?)
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It's unlikely you'll need to request clearance. Because you're on with FF, Center will switch you to Approach, and approach will handle clearance.
Depending on your cruise altitude, area you're transiting, and density of traffic, you'll either get

(a)"Cleared into the Bravo, maintain altitude at or (below)(above) XXXX, fly heading of YYY°", or

(b) "Descend and maintain altitude of XXXX, remain clear of Class Bravo Airspace". Meaning, "we got too much traffic going on, I need you to stay out of the Bravo shelf above you" but.

Once you are out the other side of the B or C space and traffic, you'll be given clearance to resume own navigation and VFR climb to your cruise altitude.

No need to bother with options 2 and 3. ATC will handle the coordination and separation. Just be ready to follow their instructions for turns or changes of altitude.

You'll do fine.

And post back the results of your trip.
 
No clearance required for Class C. It's also not hard to overfly; usually they top out at ~4000 AGL. Stay away from extended centerlines of runways to the extent possible. Transitions directly over midfield are often easiest.

For the B, you'll need clearance, and that availability varies. Flying under the shelf is usually possible, but requires a transponder.
 
Thanks for the replies.. I have attached the chart now..

I guess I could fly under the shelf but I guess I was more interested in if I would be easily give clearance through..

Good explanation AggieMike88.... I have used Flight Following numerous times but never really through a Class B before.. Thanks!
 
I don't see a sectional attached, so I'm not sure where you're flying but here's how I'd do it:

1) You don't need to be cleared intro/through Class C airspace. Establishing two way radio communication is all that is required (provided you have an altitude-encoding transponder). And, presumably, you'll be talking to the appropriate Approach controller so unless you hear "Remain clear of the Class Charlie" you can head right through however you'd like. (Be aware, however, that you may get vectored to more appropriate altitudes and/or headings so as to not interfere with traffic. When given a heading or altitude to fly, fly it.)

2) Depending on the Class B airspace, you might be cleared through it or told to remain clear. (It looks like you're close to ORD, so if that's the Class B you're talking about I'd expect to be told to remain clear.) If you're cleared through, it's just like Class C operations, except you'll almost certainly get vectors to avoid traffic (turn/climb/descend as instructed).

Edit: Now I see the sectional and also the mention of KY. For some reason, I couldn't see that when I started typing my response.
 
Thanks.. Great advice.. It is actually through CVG.. They stay pretty busy it seems with UPS traffic. (Or Maybe Fed Ex)
 
Firefighter_324 said:
If I am under flight following I understand that I still need clearance to enter these airspace and flying over and under is not really an option.
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Not exactly.

For the C-space, if you are receiving flight following, you are in two-way radio comm with the controller who owns the airspace, and need no further clearance or special permission to continue through the C-space. If the controller wants you to do something else, it's up to them to tell you.

For the B-space, it's a very nasty controller who'd intentionally let you fly into the B-space without saying something if you were headed in there while receiving flight following. You might get a late call advising you that you need to turn, but more likely the controller will discuss this with you far enough ahead that if you won't be cleared in, you'll have time to work out an alternative (over, under, or around). Of course, if you see it coming, you'd be prudent to ask about this on initial contact with Savannah Approach.

Finally, there is no problem with staying under the shelves or over the top of B- or C-space without obtaining anyone's permission as long as your transponder is operating in Mode C and you stay above the appropriate 91.119 minimum altitude. This is a non-event if you're getting flight following.

So what do you guys prefer to do ?
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I'm plan a straight-line flight, and expect to work things out for passage through the B/C-spaces with the appropriate controller as I got there.
 
Great ! I am probably over thinking this but just wanted to be prepared on my first cross country with my PPL. I appreciate the replies..
 
Ron Levy said:
more likely the controller will discuss this with you far enough ahead that if you won't be cleared in, you'll have time to work out an alternative (over, under, or around).
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Not my experience.

Center won't discuss Class B clearance.

Approach may or may not. But I generally get my clearances barely far enough to turn away if it didn't come. Sometimes I have to call Approach and tell them I'm circling awaiting clearance. Usually, I'll bug them earlier unless I can't get a word in edgewise.

The controller handling the clearance and B transition may be different from the one handling the airspace outside the B.

The lesson is to know where the boundary is, and have an alternative PREplanned.
 
MAKG1 said:
Center won't discuss Class B clearance.
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They can't -- it's not their airspace. But if your flight path will take you into B-space, you won't be talking to Center when you get there.

Approach may or may not. But I generally get my clearances barely far enough to turn away if it didn't come. Sometimes I have to call Approach and tell them I'm circling awaiting clearance. Usually, I'll bug them earlier unless I can't get a word in edgewise.
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Sometimes that happens, and it is your responsibility to make sure. But 90% of the time, they're ahead of you in this game, including NY, Philly, and Potomac -- which are about as busy as any TRACONs around.

The controller handling the clearance and B transition may be different from the one handling the airspace outside the B.
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I've never seen the sector boundary coincident with the B-space boundary. My feeling is that's deliberate, as it would create too many coordination problems.

The lesson is to know where the boundary is, and have an alternative PREplanned.
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Agreed.
 
I did an XC a few months ago with video rolling that took me through Denver B and Colorado Springs C airspace - you might take a look and see how painless it was. I'd certainly not plan to avoid them unless you're told to do so by ATC. :)

Anyhow, for my flight, I departed a remote southeastern Colorado airport and picked up FF from center. Along the way, I checked in with Springs Approach (video link) - painless and established radio contact while confirming the direction I was headed (basically over the airport) was OK with ATC. After that, I was handed to Denver Approach and since I was headed toward the Denver Bravo without those magic words, I queried and got a "cleared into the bravo" (video link). Had he of given me a "remain clear" I still had 10 minutes to drop down and stay out of it.
 
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Leaving KCMA and getting Mugu departure I get Mugu asking me "how do you plan on transiting Brovo?". I get this at least 25 miles away. If they don't ask you then I would ask them.
 
V1-Vr-V2 said:
I did an XC a few months ago with video rolling that took me through Denver B and Colorado Springs C airspace - you might take a look and see how painless it was. I'd certainly not plan to avoid them unless you're told to do so by ATC. :)



Anyhow, for my flight, I departed a remote southeastern Colorado airport and picked up FF from center. Along the way, I checked in with Springs Approach (video link) - painless and established radio contact while confirming the direction I was headed (basically over the airport) was OK with ATC. After that, I was handed to Denver Approach and since I was headed toward the Denver Bravo without those magic words, I queried and got a "cleared into the bravo" (video link). Had he of given me a "remain clear" I still had 10 minutes to drop down and stay out of it.
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Trim-A-Dad! Well, the sex change place moved so I guess that joke is dated now... Haha.

I got a chuckle out of the yoke being full left during the downwind taxi and then staying full left for takeoff. ;)

I noticed he cleared you into the Bravo but said he'd have to descend you shortly on the West side. That's usually a sign they have airliners descending like a bat outta hell off the mountains to the West of the VFR corridor up the West side and I had an interesting one with that area once...

I was cleared into the Bravo southbound from well north of Metro (BJC) wandering my way down to APA and a Southwest jet crossing west to east decided he'd play chicken with me and probably saw me on the "fish finder". TRACON comes on about the time SWA stops his screaming descent all on his own (the hint that he saw me or got a TCAS alert) and crosses over me probably with exactly 1000' of clearance. I was on a VFR altitude, so I know it's not what he was cleared down to. It definitely wasn't 1500' of separation.

The controller has that high pitched "holy crap I'm going to get a deal and everyone's gonna die" voice telling SWA to stop their descent. The controller was working SWA on a different radio and transmitting on multiple frequencies at the same time so I never got to hear if SWA was chuckling or annoyed.

Heh. It was "fun" to watch from the cockpit because it was VMC and I saw the big orange thing headed for me, and I was ready to push and chop the throttle, big time. I got a nice view of the greasy side of a 737 painted up like a bowling shoe as he gracefully went overhead right to left. Controller then gave him another descent clearance.

Just about put us both in the same chunk of VMC sky. Closest I've been to a 737 in flight.

There's just too much crap going on over on the West side and almost zero options for an engine-out. Over the years I've learned I like the options of the east way around better... Or...

Way low under the inner shelf on the West side. And you might think, "That's nuts! Why in there?"

Well, it was another pilot ferrying an aircraft who showed me this...

If you get east of Downtown Denver down below that portion of the Bravo shelf, there's a line of golf courses all the way from APA almost to BJC, ending at the railroad tracks near Commerce City. You actually have a line of emergency landing options all the way across town.

Check it out on Google Maps sometime... Or just do the standard transition West of Downtown VFR and look over there to the East. Golf course, golf course, golf course, golf course...

Heh. Something you won't find on the Sectional! :)
 
jordane93 said:
CVG is pretty benign. I'm sure you'll get a Bravo transition no problem
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Agreed with Jordan. Use to go into CVG to do touch and goes and they never had a problem with it. Nice to see a fellow Hoosier on here! Have fun on the trip!
 
I fly in the Memphis area. Our controllers here are great. Clearance into Bravo is usually a non-event. Take off, get FF, then keep a listening watch for your call sign. When you are handed off to Approach, they will probably clear you into Bravo. If not, ask if you are cleared. If they clear you, be sure (at least I do) you repeat "Cleared into Bravo" to be sure you didn't misunderstand.

Have a great time! Once in awhile, you get a short tempered controller (who may be having a bad day for some reason) but most of the time controllers are really nice and helpful.
 
denverpilot said:
Trim-A-Dad! Well, the sex change place moved so I guess that joke is dated now... Haha.

I got a chuckle out of the yoke being full left during the downwind taxi and then staying full left for takeoff. ;)

I was cleared into the Bravo southbound from well north of Metro (BJC) wandering my way down to APA and a Southwest jet crossing west to east decided he'd play chicken with me and probably saw me on the "fish finder". TRACON comes on about the time SWA stops his screaming descent all on his own (the hint that he saw me or got a TCAS alert) and crosses over me probably with exactly 1000' of clearance. I was on a VFR altitude, so I know it's not what he was cleared down to. It definitely wasn't 1500' of separation.

VFR to IFR separation in the Bravo is 1.5 miles or 500 feet of altitude :wink2:

Looks like you had IFR/IFR separation, however with the way they treat TCAS RA's anymore, I wouldn't fault the controller for being antsy.
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Firefighter_324 said:
I am planning on a 140 mile trip in the coming weeks and have a question about flight following.

I have attached the sectional screenshot of the trip. If I fly direct it takes me through Class B and C Airspace.

If I am under flight following I understand that I still need clearance to enter these airspace and flying over and under is not really an option. So what do you guys prefer to do ?

1)Request clearance through? (How likely are they to grant this?)
2)Fly on the outside of it? (How do I tell approach this when I near? Just that I will be staying just outside the Class B/C ?
3) Just totally stay away and fly a course that keeps me well outside? (How do I tell Approach this is what I am doing? Will they expect me to fly literally direct if I tell them I am direct to a destination ?)

This will be the first time flying to the Central KY area.. Anything else I should be aware of? Or any neat placed to stop at?

Thanks!
Click to expand...


As a class B controller, your flight path looks good for a place like CVG. We're a similar dead bravo. Just make sure you get clearance and don't be annoyed if you get 10 or 20 left/right for 10 miles. You're essentially half IFR when VFR in the B. Have an out to descend below, but don't be twitchy about it. If you tell me on call up that you need a transition and cannot possibly decend because your charts magically disappeared I can and will work with you.

Just don't be that guy who waits until he's four feet from the bravo before asking for clearance.

Any chance you can make it further south and see Glacier Girl?
 
I'm often flying an LSA in and around the Memphis Bravo and when on the way in on FF after getting handed off to approach I'll often get cleared into the Bravo 20 miles out from the closest shelf, which at my speeds and the right winds can take a while. Don't sweat it.
 
Well completed my trip to Kentucky through the Class B and C airspace.. It was very simple and was cleared 25 miles out.. Awesome time ! Thanks!
 
Yep I do ! Can you remind me of the site I used to make that ? I cannot remember and didn't bookmark it. :)
 
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