Flight Following Question

Don Brown and Kevin Garrison really "made" AvWeb for a long time. Both of them leaving has left a hole in the quality level of the articles there. Still good stuff, but not nearly the "Oh, a new article is out, I must go read it!" way I felt back when they were writing for them.

Some of the video podcasts are starting to feel that way, but it's just not the same as a really good writer that's polished and re-worked an article until it sparkles and makes you laugh.
 
Clark1961 said:
Did you read all of my initial post or did you just fly off the handle on the first line?
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Yes, no.

There was the line with unable and student pilot and no endorsement. Somehow I just imagine that would explain everything necessary to the otherwise ignorant controller.
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Your assumption is incorrect.

Perhaps it wouldn't if said controller was pretending to be a lawyer and nitpicker like you. Maybe you should go play with Ron so you can both be happy nitpicking and lawyering up. Maybe not, it's just a suggestion and I'm sure you'll find something to be nitpicky and obtuse about.
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Picking nits? I just asked a simple question. What do you feel I'm being obtuse about?
 
Ron Levy said:
In over 40 years of flying, roncachamp is the first controller I've ever heard say that there's no "magic" to announcing that you're a Student Pilot, so as long as you stay away from Green Bay, you should be fine with that announcement.
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What "magic" do you feel is in those words?
 
"Magic words" is a figure of speech. I suggest not taking them literally.
 
chucky said:
I think he's just pointing out that controllers won't necessarily know that student pilots can't enter class B airspace unless they are specifically endorsed, which is germane to the discussion. I don't think he's implying that self-identifying as a student pilot isn't a good thing to do.
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Bingo. I hear "student pilot" and I make an effort to slow down my speech rate a bit and overpronounce.

I imagine this also means that controllers might not know that student pilots can't accept land-and-hold-short clearances?
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The LAHSO order says solo student pilots will not conduct LAHSO, but to my knowledge there's no publication directed at pilots that prohibits students from participating in LAHSO. I don't believe it's mentioned in the FARs and the AIM just says student pilots should not participate.
 
chucky said:
It's a minor point, but I've heard from more than one source that it's helpful if you make it clear you're a VFR aircraft they don't know about - saves them that moment of looking for the strip. You can say "Approach, Cessna 12345, VFR request" or "Approach, Cessna 12345, request flight following" or something like that. Maybe roncachamp or someone else who knows what it's like on the other side of the mic can comment on whether or not it really matters.
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Appending "VFR request" to a call out of the blue doesn't really convey any information. If you're not VFR the controller should already know about you, and pilots generally don't call ATC just to chat so it's pretty much understood they have a request of some kind. If the request is short and simple just spit it out on the first call; "Metropolis approach, Staggerwing 1234A, twenty southwest landing Metro with whiskey."
 
AuntPeggy said:
Magic words indeed. Somehow they make all the communications slow down to audible and seem to add an encouraging smile to an otherwise official voice.
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Sure, but they say nothing about pilot limitations.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
They're probably looking for the 4-character code to punch into the computer - C177 or C77R, as appropriate. The Cardinal is a great plane, but there aren't a whole lot of them and only the most die-hard enthusiast controllers are going to remember the 4-character code for them.
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The computer isn't that fussy. Two, three, or four alphanumeric characters, as long as the first one is a letter the computer is happy. A lot of controllers aren't that fussy either, call yourself just "Cessna" and they punch "CSNA" into the computer.
 
denverpilot said:
They also often need to know your equipment which isn't conveyed in my usual "Skylane" either. If quizzed I always revert to "Cessna One Eight Two Slant Alpha" which is what they're looking for to type into their strip.
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If the pilot does not state the equipment suffix I just use /U. A suffix that indicates a transponder is present is needed or the computer won't assign a beacon code.
 
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roncachamp said:
The computer isn't that fussy. Two, three, or four alphanumeric characters, as long as the first one is a letter the computer is happy. A lot of controllers aren't that fussy either, call yourself just "Cessna" and they punch "CSNA" into the computer.
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This question is more for my idle curiosity than anything else and to see what other people do. I know you don't speak for all controllers, but how specific do you normally like the aircraft make and/or model to be when the pilot uses the radio?

The AIM says:
3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix "N" is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.
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"Type, model or manufacturer's name" gives a pilot a lot of leeway. Using the Cardinal example that someone gave in this thread, a pilot could call it a "Cessna" or a "Cardinal". I suppose in some sense it's nice to know whether an airplane is a Cessna 150 or a Cessna 210 and calling a 210 "Centurion" might clear up some of that ambiguity. I've never heard a 150 called anything other than a "Cessna" though. On the other hand, some model names are pretty obscure, especially if not many of them were produced. I've had controllers start calling the airplane by the model name even though I initiated the call with the manufacturer's name, or at least I wasn't so specific as to give the model name. For example, I always called the C320 "Twin Cessna XXX" but I've had controllers (very) occasionally come back with "Skynight XXX". It's the same with the C680 which I call "Citation XXX" but not too long ago a controller started calling it "Sovereign XXX". The embarrassing part was that I wasn't sure what he was saying for a second. I always figured that was because they wanted to show they actually knew what specific type of airplane it was but maybe some prefer it that way. :dunno:

Of course this is just mindless Saturday morning rambling...
 
roncachamp said:
The computer isn't that fussy. Two, three, or four alphanumeric characters, as long as the first one is a letter the computer is happy. A lot of controllers aren't that fussy either, call yourself just "Cessna" and they punch "CSNA" into the computer.
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What would I tell them if I were to ever talk to some one and it came up?

Experimental, amateur built, LSA (Merlin GT).
 
Everskyward said:
This question is more for my idle curiosity than anything else and to see what other people do. I know you don't speak for all controllers, but how specific do you normally like the aircraft make and/or model to be when the pilot uses the radio?
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I like to be as specific as possible. Operationally, it makes a difference when calling traffic and when LAHSO is in effect. I've been an airplane nut since kindergarten so I'm pretty familiar with even the more obscure types. We've got a Skylark on the field, Cessna model 175. Few controllers are familiar with it so the operator calls it "Skyhawk" to save having to explain. But I call it "Skylark" anyway and enter the type as C175
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What would I tell them if I were to ever talk to some one and it came up?

Experimental, amateur built, LSA (Merlin GT).
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MAME is the type designator for Macair Merlin. If you feel that's not a good fit the type designator for homebuilts with a cruising speed of 100 KIAS or less that are not assigned a specific designator is HXA.
 
roncachamp said:
Effective for what?
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In the case of the words "student pilot," I'm satisfied with the AIM entry on the subject:
4−2−4. Aircraft Call Signs...


c. Student Pilots Radio Identification.​

1. The FAA desires to help student pilots in acquiring sufficient practical experience in the environment in which they will be required to operate. To receive additional assistance while operating in areas of concentrated air traffic, student pilots need only identify themselves as a student pilot during their initial call to an FAA radio facility.

EXAMPLE−
Dayton tower, Fleetwing One Two Three Four, student pilot.​

2. This special identification will alert FAA ATC personnel and enable them to provide student pilots with such extra assistance and consideration as they may need. It is recommended that student pilots identify themselves as such, on initial contact with each clearance delivery prior to taxiing, ground control, tower, approach and departure control frequency, or FSS contact.​



​
 
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Palmpilot said:
In the case of the words "student pilot," I'm satisfied with the AIM entry on the subject:
4−2−4. Aircraft Call Signs...


c. Student Pilots Radio Identification.​

1. The FAA desires to help student pilots in acquiring sufficient practical experience in the environment in which they will be required to operate. To receive additional assistance while operating in areas of concentrated air traffic, student pilots need only identify themselves as a student pilot during their initial call to an FAA radio facility.

EXAMPLE−
Dayton tower, Fleetwing One Two Three Four, student pilot.​

2. This special identification will alert FAA ATC personnel and enable them to provide student pilots with such extra assistance and consideration as they may need. It is recommended that student pilots identify themselves as such, on initial contact with each clearance delivery prior to taxiing, ground control, tower, approach and departure control frequency, or FSS contact.​



​
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No mention of Class B airspace there.
 
roncachamp said:
The computer isn't that fussy. Two, three, or four alphanumeric characters, as long as the first one is a letter the computer is happy. A lot of controllers aren't that fussy either, call yourself just "Cessna" and they punch "CSNA" into the computer.
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And that's probably what I'd do if I were a controller, though I'd probably put in the correct code if I was handing the plane off.

There's also a ton of rookie controllers now who seem to do everything by the letter. You can tell when you get one - They're the ones that still say "tree" and "fife." ;)
 
Just wanted to update this post everything went great I actually received my Class B endorsment before doing the cross country... In fact today I completed my Long Cross Country solo..... Thanks for all the information...
 
denverpilot said:
Don Brown and Kevin Garrison really "made" AvWeb for a long time. Both of them leaving has left a hole in the quality level of the articles there. Still good stuff, but not nearly the "Oh, a new article is out, I must go read it!" way I felt back when they were writing for them.

Some of the video podcasts are starting to feel that way, but it's just not the same as a really good writer that's polished and re-worked an article until it sparkles and makes you laugh.
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Last time I talked to Don he was one year away from retirement and looking forward to it. He is not a pilot, so I don't think that we will be hearing from him again.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Last time I talked to Don he was one year away from retirement and looking forward to it. He is not a pilot, so I don't think that we will be hearing from him again.
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Must have been a while ago, I think he's been retired for over 2 years now. Had a nice chat with him at Oshkosh in '08.
 
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