Flight Following and Entering Class B

T

The Hard Way

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Early in my flying life and still quite a novice pilot, I flew my 172SP into KPDK in Atlanta from the southwest. I used flight following the entire way and cruised there VFR at 9,500ft. The handoffs were smooth, I worked the VORs, the trip was great and I thought how super my new flight skills were - that is until I got to Atlanta.

This was my first time there. I guess I was thinking I would be able to go in direct (right over Hartsfield). Bad idea. Instead, when ATC passed me off to Atlanta Control, I got immediately challenged and reprimanded. I had already entered Class B when I was handed over and thought that because I was on flight following and was already in Class B, I had been cleared. NOT! The Atlanta controller corrected me rather abruptly. I replied sorry, that I thought I had been cleared by the last controller and immediately asked for vectors.
Much to my relief, they gave them to me and I proceeded around to the west and in without further incident.

Lessons learned - its better to do some up front research into common routes into busy airspace as well as to always confirm clearance when entering. For newer pilots, discuss/check your planned route in with your CFI, other pilots who fly the route regularly, the local FBO, AOPA, or other on-line routing resources. Don't assume you can just fly where you want. Studying IFR arrival routes is another great resource to consider. And always stay ahead of the plane. Think at least 2 steps ahead. Happy flying.
 
If I'm getting close to class B I always double check with them nicely using something like "hulk smash is requesting verification of class B clearance" if they don't say I have it then it's a perfect time t request it. If they won't give it to me then I usually descend or fly around. But you gotta know where you are at. Class B is where you don't wanna mess up
 
When flying out of PDK with a southbound destination, we ALWAYS get vectored over ATL at 5,000. I'm sure they like to keep that route clear for IFR traffic. I've never done it VFR. Checkout the Atlanta FLY chart for recommended routes around ATL.

It's better to confirm than to assume. You lived and you learned. Life will go on. I would file a NASA report for the class B bust.
 
If I am VFR, I always include the Class B clearance in my readback.
 
You must hear the words, "Cleared into Class Bravo". Doesn't matter if you're on Flight Following or just called them to request it.

I was cleared through the DEN Bravo on both ends of the most recent trip.

On the way back in the controllers did a shift change and halfway thru the corner of the Bravo I got, "Descend and maintain at or below 8000, remain clear of Class Bravo" from the new controller.

She apparently wasn't interested in me being there. Wasn't any traffic for miles. Just her way of doing it vs the guy who went on break.

No biggie either way.

Side note, the floor of the Bravo is at 8000 there so her phraseology sucks. *AT* or below wasn't accurate for "clear" of the Bravo.
 
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It seems to depend on the area. Up here around Chicago, unless it is 3:00 am you will never get any clearance into the Bravo. Even on an IFR flight plane they route you as far away as possible.

Other areas are different. I was on flight following on my way to an airport on the other side of the ST. Louis Bravo. I was fully expecting to be told to remain clear.

Instead I was given a hard altitude and a heading by St. Louis Approach. The headings were going to take me into the class B, but I had not received a clearance in.

I waited a few minutes, making sure I had time to stay clear, and I asked for verification that I was cleared into the Bravo airspace. She came back on and said in a very irritated tone, I gave you an assigned heading and altitude that will take you into the Class B. I wasn't going to back down, and said yes you did please verify I am cleared into the Class B. She did come back on and gave me the words I was looking for and I said thank you.

Obviously to her, what she did was acceptable. I didn't agree, but I heard a number of other planes get the same type of assignments going into the same area, and I was the only one that questioned it.
 
I get cleared through the Denver Bravo about 90% of the time. I think if you sound like you have a plan, they seem very open to letting you in and through the Bravo. I wish more people would use flight following. It is simply safer.

Carl
 
SportPilotCO said:
I get cleared through the Denver Bravo about 90% of the time. I think if you sound like you have a plan, they seem very open to letting you in and through the Bravo. I wish more people would use flight following. It is simply safer.

Carl
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I would agree. I have never had an issue getting a clearance through the Denver Bravo.

Dallas I have tried a couple of times and was told no. I don't think I tried in LA, as they have the corridors through the class B.

Before I had my instrument, I would try to use flight following as much as possible. However it is a real pain to deal with in the Chicago area. But was something that was great in the rest of the country.

Now I file IFR everywhere I go, and most of the time I am routed through any class B, with the exception of Ohare.
 
The Hard Way said:
Early in my flying life and still quite a novice pilot, I flew my 172SP into KPDK in Atlanta from the southwest. I used flight following the entire way and cruised there VFR at 9,500ft. The handoffs were smooth, I worked the VORs, the trip was great and I thought how super my new flight skills were - that is until I got to Atlanta.

This was my first time there. I guess I was thinking I would be able to go in direct (right over Hartsfield). Bad idea. Instead, when ATC passed me off to Atlanta Control, I got immediately challenged and reprimanded. I had already entered Class B when I was handed over and thought that because I was on flight following and was already in Class B, I had been cleared. NOT! The Atlanta controller corrected me rather abruptly. I replied sorry, that I thought I had been cleared by the last controller and immediately asked for vectors.
Much to my relief, they gave them to me and I proceeded around to the west and in without further incident.

Lessons learned - its better to do some up front research into common routes into busy airspace as well as to always confirm clearance when entering. For newer pilots, discuss/check your planned route in with your CFI, other pilots who fly the route regularly, the local FBO, AOPA, or other on-line routing resources. Don't assume you can just fly where you want. Studying IFR arrival routes is another great resource to consider. And always stay ahead of the plane. Think at least 2 steps ahead. Happy flying.
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No, the real lesson to be learned is that you need to know the rules.
 
I've heard similar stories, but the rules are clear.

VFR flight following does not equal clearance to enter Class B. They are two completely different and separate things.
 
denverpilot said:
You must hear the words, "Cleared into Class Bravo". Doesn't matter if you're on Flight Following or just called them to request it.
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Yep. Just because you have FF doesn't mean you are cleared into Class B. Especially in the ATL area I would double check when you're near the Bravo.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I get cleared through the Denver Bravo about 90% of the time. I think if you sound like you have a plan, they seem very open to letting you in and through the Bravo.
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Agreed. I've never been denied a VFR transition through NY Bravo. The NY guys are professional and always help out if workload and time permits.
 
denverpilot said:
You must hear the words, "Cleared into Class Bravo". Doesn't matter if you're on Flight Following or just called them to request it.
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^This. Once a controller said me I didn't need clearance to transit the LAX Bravo via the Mini-Route.

I came back with "one more time for the tapes, you're telling me N345 is cleared on my present route but don't need clearance for the Bravo?"

Explicit Bravo clearance came back shortly thereafter.;)
 
SportPilotCO said:
I get cleared through the Denver Bravo about 90% of the time. I think if you sound like you have a plan, they seem very open to letting you in and through the Bravo. I wish more people would use flight following. It is simply safer.

Carl
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Denver is pretty good about giving clearances when they can. At 5 or 6 in the morning it's pretty easy. During pushes it's sorta tough if you're crossing the arrival/departure routes. I wish Denver and COS would pass data on their hand-offs...
 
While it is your responsibility to ensure that you don't enter class B without an explicit clearance, the class B controller is also responsible for not vectoring you directly into class B without issuing you a clearance.

During flight following, I have always noticed that the controller vectors me around Class B. When in doubt, I query them, but they always seem to be on top of things.
 
denverpilot said:
You must hear the words, "Cleared into Class Bravo". Doesn't matter if you're on Flight Following or just called them to request it.
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Just yesterday, I got a clearance "Maintain 3500 remain west and south of 101 through Class B."

"Please confirm cleared into Class B."

The controller complied immediately.

I think anyone listening to the tape would infer a clearance, but I'd rather be explicit. Been bit by ambiguous clearances before.

I think there was some confusion at NorCal yesterday, as I got some 4-5 handoffs between Palo Alto and San Francisco. The norm is two if avoiding San Carlos (I did), and three if transitioning through it. Oh, and on the return, NorCal directed an A380 under us, leaving SFO 28R. My son was suitably impressed by the "soooper jumbo" (controller's words) 1000 feet below. Got an odd instruction to climb to 3700 (I was at 3500). Zoomed up. A380 must have been a tad high.
 
MAKG1 said:
Just yesterday, I got a clearance "Maintain 3500 remain west and south of 101 through Class B."

"Please confirm cleared into Class B."

The controller complied immediately.

I think anyone listening to the tape would infer a clearance, but I'd rather be explicit. Been bit by ambiguous clearances before.
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I feel and do exactly the same as you.

Favorite example. I'm on the missed approach during a practice session under VFR. The altitude to climb to on the missed takes one into the Class B. Reporting in on the frequency, I get

ATC: Proceed direct [IAF]; hold as published.
Me: Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo.
ATC: Oh yeah, I do have to say that. Cleared into the Class Bravo.

OTOH, I've had the experience of being cleared into Class B by a controller and when speaking to a different controller later on the same flight gotten, "What are you doing in the Class Bravo?" Nice to know the explicit clearance and not my guesswork proper inferences is on the tape.
 
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Airspace busts are common and I know plenty of people who've experienced them including myself. The gist is the circumstances; whether or not a violation will ensue. I've busted a B on flight following with a student. I was purposely flying below their airspace but my student happened to pop into it while I was distracted. It happens so fast, but I quickly realized it and corrected the situation. The controllers were friendly and in a good mood too, always helps
 
Hey, what a surprise. Another day, another pilot on FD(flight directing, not flight following) getting in trouble.

Vectors please!

You want a lesson? Turn your comm off, squawk 1200 and do it yourself. Oh, maybe you were landing at Hartsfield? lol, sure...
 
warthog1984 said:
^This. Once a controller said me I didn't need clearance to transit the LAX Bravo via the Mini-Route.

I came back with "one more time for the tapes, you're telling me N345 is cleared on my present route but don't need clearance for the Bravo?"

Explicit Bravo clearance came back shortly thereafter.;)
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The SoCal controllers are typically very good at asking you how you plan to transition the LAX Bravo well before you reach it. Case in point -- flying back south from the Santa Ynez wine country this past weekend, I was asked that same question by three sequential controllers.
 
docmirror said:
Hey, what a surprise. Another day, another pilot on FD(flight directing, not flight following) getting in trouble.

Vectors please!

You want a lesson? Turn your comm off, squawk 1200 and do it yourself. Oh, maybe you were landing at Hartsfield? lol, sure...
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You self clear into Class B?

That one ought to be amusing on the 44709 ride.

The people you talk to for flight following and for Class B clearance are the same. The difference is, on flight following, they might have known you were coming further off and are less likely to give you the dreaded "remain clear of Class B."

While you might not need a Class B clearance (or you MIGHT -- dodging SFO Class B is real hard with marine layer over the Golden Gate), it can be both convenient and fun for passengers.
 
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MAKG1 said:
You self clear into Class B?

That one ought to be amusing on the 44709 ride.

The people you talk to for flight following and for Class B clearance are the same. The difference is, on flight following, they might have known you were coming further off and are less likely to give you the dreaded "remain clear of Class B."

While you might not need a Class B clearance (or you MIGHT -- dodging SFO Class B is real hard with marine layer over the Golden Gate), it can be both convenient and fun for passengers.
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I think you got something backwards there space cadet. The OP didn't need to be in the class B, but he went in without a clearance and got busted. I - on the other hand want nothing to do with the class B unless I'm landing at the major airport. If you gotta go in then you gotta ask permission first.

So, I leave the radio off FF, and don't go in unless required. No muss, no fuss, no bust.

QED.
 
docmirror said:
Hey, what a surprise. Another day, another pilot on FD(flight directing, not flight following) getting in trouble.

Vectors please!

You want a lesson? Turn your comm off, squawk 1200 and do it yourself. Oh, maybe you were landing at Hartsfield? lol, sure...
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If you are saying, "just remain clear of the the Class B and don't ask for Flight Following," that's fine if that's what you prefer doing. I've done it myself many times when I just didn't feel like talking to anyone..

But why do you feel there is some valuable "lesson" in avoiding ATC communications and the benefits of Flight Following? The rules are simple, the navigation is simple, the communication is simple.
 
docmirror said:
I - on the other hand want nothing to do with the class B unless I'm landing at the major airport.
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Well, there are other reasons to go into B.

Trying to get around San Francisco with a buttload of jet traffic to the East and marine layer along the coast (Friday afternoon in summer) means you're either IFR (which requires a radio and talking to Approach) or you're flying in the clouds or in Class B illegally.

I suppose you could fly well offshore below the B, but that water is COLD and if there is marine layer, no one will see you ditch if your engine goes bad.

Your approach to the radio is extremely limiting. To say one shouldn't go flying on an otherwise nice summer afternoon is silly. Learn how to do it, and how to do it correctly. Not doing it at all is a cop out.

Flight following can save your butt in high traffic or performance limited areas (high altitude), even if it isn't required. Some airplanes have terrible rear visibility.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, there are other reasons to go into B.
.
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Then call them, get a code and go in! I already said that days ago!

Is this so hard to understand? Can you be busted for a instruction you didn't follow because you didn't get it because your radio was on 121.5?

If you play the game, and want ATC to direct you, then follow instructions. If you don't want to play the game, then don't call ATC, and don't get a bust.

Geez, you would think that logic would enter into it at some point. Pilots blithely flying along, thinking they don't have to follow ATC instructions unless they are in a B or C. Yes! you do have to follow instructions, if you take the squawk.

jeezalou, there are some anal retentives in this forum.
 
ATC doesn't direct you unless you're in B/C/D. They advise. Big difference.

If you did happen to get an instruction, you would have to follow it or ask for another.

The only true instructions I've ever gotten in Class E are "remain clear of XXX," which you would have gotten anyway if you tried to contact them. "Traffic 12 o'clock 1 mile altitude indicates 2000" is not an instruction, even if it contains an advisory heading.

It's beyond easy. If you don't like instructions in B/C/D, you can ask for another or even refuse them entirely if unsafe (BTDT). It's much harder to coordinate the radio while avoiding flight following in complex airspace, and it's virtually identical (including the radio traffic) in simple airspace.

You're not teaching anyone anything by encouraging radio avoidance. Quite the contrary. A second set of eyes that can reach much further than yours can, can be very valuable.
 
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docmirror said:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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Maybe if you actually used the service, you would know how it works.

You can't be busted for failure to follow an advisory, though a 91.13 bust might be possible if something really bad happened cause you flew straight ahead with a traffic advisory at 12 o'clock at your altitude.
 
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I've flown from upstate NY and on my way back I'll come down the Hudson River corridor with FF and I've never even had to ask.. They've always came on and cleared me into the Bravo before I ask..
 
MAKG1 said:
ATC doesn't direct you unless you're in B/C/D. They advise. Big difference.

If you did happen to get an instruction, you would have to follow it or ask for another.

The only true instructions I've ever gotten in Class E are "remain clear of XXX," which you would have gotten anyway if you tried to contact them. "Traffic 12 o'clock 1 mile altitude indicates 2000" is not an instruction, even if it contains an advisory heading.

It's beyond easy. If you don't like instructions in B/C/D, you can ask for another or even refuse them entirely if unsafe (BTDT). It's much harder to coordinate the radio while avoiding flight following in complex airspace, and it's virtually identical (including the radio traffic) in simple airspace.

You're not teaching anyone anything by encouraging radio avoidance. Quite the contrary. A second set of eyes that can reach much further than yours can, can be very valuable.
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The subject of ATC instructions to VFR aircraft in class E airspace has been discussed extensively here and elsewhere.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60082
 
I fly around DFW all the time. My base is inside the Mode C and the Bravo shelf is 4000ft. Surface area is about 10 miles east. (Guess the airport for extra credit)

Anyway, I'm on flight following or just advisories 80% of the time in the air and yes... memorize this... if you don't hear and then say "Cleared into Class Bravo" then stay the heck out.

Recently I was coming back from ACT (Waco) on following and they were being very nice and cleared me in without decent. That usually means they have a light load. To my surprise I heard THREE pilots being asked to read back a phone number to call when landing because they had busted the Bravo.

Don't be that guy/gal!
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think MAKG's two-sentence summary of the rule was accurate. No need to rehash an "extensive" thread.
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I count a lot more than two sentences. Which two did you mean?

I think the earlier threads have entertainment value, if nothing else. :wink2:
 
Palmpilot said:
I count a lot more than two sentences. Which two did you mean?

I think the earlier threads have entertainment value, if nothing else. :wink2:
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You are right. Both, uh, paragraphs :)

I meant two short paragraphs. Maybe with the phrase "in general" in front of the very first sentence.

In general ATC doesn't direct you unless you're in B/C/D. They advise. Big difference.

If you did happen to get an instruction, you would have to follow it or ask for another.
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