Flaps Up on T & G

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evapilotaz

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Whats the worst that can happen if I forget to put flaps up during a T & G flying a C172n? The airplane wont climb, barely climb, or kiss the ground. I know it depends on how loaded the plane is and other factors. What if I lift off with full flaps? Should the recovery be retract flaps at 10 degrees to build up speed, Establish climb speed and retract the rest in 10 degree intervals? I know I shouldn't just put the flaps up all at once.

Has anyone actually have this happened. :dunno:
 
lethargic climb. So worst case depends on how long the runway is and whats at the end of it.

In an older one w/ 40 degree it might be really lethargic
And I believe the retract 10 degrees at a time just like in a go around is the solution.
 
The worst?

You can strike an obstruction or stall/spin because of your failure to climb and die.

I'm going to be real blunt here 'cause your life may depend on it. Do not do a T&G until you get the balked landing checklist down. In a 172N, it's not 10 deg. It's 20 immediately, then 10 and then zero, each with positive rate of climb. You only do this if you don't have the runway ahead to land.

If you have runway ahead, land, clean up, then park because an oversight that bad is a sign that you really shouldn't be flying at that moment.

This is a huge mistake, and it kills people occasionally. If there is any doubt whatsoever, do not do a T&G. Period.
 
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Okay you forget to put the flaps up....not good but not looking at disaster, the airplane will want to fly, it will fly and climb out albeit slowly, watch your airspeed and angle of attack, keep the climb as shallow as obstacles will allow, once you have established a reasonable climb step out the flaps 10 degree a time, don't rush it, watch that airspeed and angle of attack.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
lethargic climb. So worst case depends on how long the runway is and whats at the end of it.

In an older one w/ 40 degree it might be really lethargic
And I believe the retract 10 degrees at a time just like in a go around is the solution.
Click to expand...

On a hot summer day in Texas loaded to max gross, the climb will be negative. You won't be able to leave ground effect.

An N model does have 40 deg flaps.
 
If you can't handle touch and goes in a 172 you arnt ready to solo yet.
 
IMHO you are negating the purpose of a touch-and-go, which is to save time by not taxiing back for another takeoff. In real life (non-training), you are not going to be sitting at the end of the runway with full flaps extended ready to push the throttle forward.

The "touch" portion of a touch-and-go ends when you have the plane configured for the "go" portion. If you can't accomplish that in the runway length available, don't "go" but taxi off at the first available turnoff and taxi back.

A lot of learning opportunity is lost when saving time becomes the goal....and you need not have a CFI in the right seat in order to have new experiences.

Bob Gardner
 
Being able to reconfigure and get out of there quickly is a good skill, more touch and goes help.
 
Wow kind of harsh Mak. I simply asked the question and you told me to ground myself. I practice touch and goes every other flight. On average I do 6 in a row. I'm very proficient in it. I question the 20 degree statement. I have done plenty of go around practice and with full flaps Down I was taught full power and increment 10 degrees.
 
I've done it once by mistake (though I do TnG with only 20 deg flaps). Basically you get off the runway and into the ground effect much earlier than anticipated, and then the climb-out is lethargic. Just keep your cool and do the first 10 degrees when you have a positive rate of climb and the little dip will not drop you into an obstruction. If you're alone in the plane and it's not too damn hot, it flies just fine with 20 or even 30 deg flaps.
 
evapilotaz said:
Wow kind of harsh Mak. I simply asked the question and you told me to ground myself. I practice touch and goes every other flight. On average I do 6 in a row. I'm very proficient in it. I question the 20 degree statement. I have done plenty of go around practice and with full flaps Down I was taught full power and increment 10 degrees.
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MAKG1 is right about the flaps cleanup procedure. If your CFI taught you differently, it's probably just because the CFI doesn't know. Mine didn't, and I considered her a good instructor. I read the POH and changed my procedure not too terribly long before my checkride. On the 40* flaps Cessnas, you cleanup immediately to 20*, then 10 and 10.

He's also right about it occasionally killing people. Didn't we just have a 150 go down recently, with failure to retract flaps as the potential cause?
 
asechrest said:
MAKG1 is right about the flaps cleanup procedure. If your CFI taught you differently, it's probably just because the CFI doesn't know. Mine didn't, and I considered her a good instructor. I read the POH and changed my procedure not too terribly long before my checkride. On the 40* flaps Cessnas, you cleanup immediately to 20*, then 10 and 10.

He's also right about it occasionally killing people. Didn't we just have a 150 go down recently, with failure to retract flaps as the potential cause?
Click to expand...

Exactly. The POH spells it out: 20° immediately.

The 150 has a rather anemic climb rate even with flaps up, and since its flaps are proportionately larger than a 172's, there's an unaffordable pile of drag there for a go-around or T&G with full flap. There have been a few people complain of flaps intermittently not retracting (bad switches or relays or whatever) and flying a defective airplane like that is asking for an accident, eventually.

Dan
 
James331 said:
Being able to reconfigure and get out of there quickly is a good skill, more touch and goes help.
Click to expand...
Humbug. T&G's are a necessary evil driven by fact that we pay for flight training by the hour and want to maximize the amount of training for the dollars spent. Listen to Bob -- you land, get the plane under control, reconfigure, and then add power to go. There is no way on this earth you should be cobbing the power until you have the airplane completely configured for takeoff again. A balked landing while the plane is still flying is one thing, but trying to do it Navy carrier bolter style (a technique necessitated by the limited landing deck length available, and one which has resulted in quite a bit of death and destruction when something goes wrong) on an intentional touch and go is downright foolish in a light single. Take your time and get it right.
 
evapilotaz said:
Wow kind of harsh Mak. I simply asked the question and you told me to ground myself. I practice touch and goes every other flight. On average I do 6 in a row. I'm very proficient in it. I question the 20 degree statement. I have done plenty of go around practice and with full flaps Down I was taught full power and increment 10 degrees.
Click to expand...

I didn't say to ground yourself, but rather to get the balked landing checklist down or do full stops. Or if you actually make the mistake at hand to take a break. 'Cause it's a big one.

You live in Arizona, and there are quite a number of fields around there where you will not be able to climb out of ground effect with full flap in a 172N for at least part of the year.

I learned this the sort-of-hard-way as a student. Long runway, trying to go around with 40 deg flaps in a 172N on a painfully hot day. I was just learning go-arounds at the time, and I figured out the flaps before my instructor took over (but I doubt very much before it).

If you blast down a runway at full power and can't climb, you would be blunt with people who say it's no big deal, too. It IS a big deal. Had I been solo and perhaps had a bit of gusty wind or a runway less than 6000 feet long, that might have ended badly.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Humbug., get the plane under control, reconfigure, and then add power to go. There is no way on this earth you should be cobbing the power until you have the airplane completely configured for takeoff again. A balked landing while the plane is still flying is one thing, but trying to do it Navy carrier bolter style (a technique necessitated by the limited landing deck length available, and one which has resulted in quite a bit of death and destruction when something goes wrong) on an intentional touch and go is downright foolish in a light single. Take your time and get it right.
Click to expand...

If you don't have the plane under control you already failed, regardless of your position on the field.

If reconfiguring on the go in a simple 172 causes a student to not be in control they are not ready to solo / act as PIC.

"Taking your time" is great, so is "being safe" but when it's used as an excuse for not being able to preform under pressure, its counter productive.

You should already have your flows down cold, muscle memory, touching down your wheels, flaps up, power up, climb out etc. If you can't execute that everytime, bang, bang, bang, you are way to far behind the aircraft.
 
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I appreciate the comments. I really never go 40 degrees downon the Cessna. So going immediately retract 20% seems excessive. Could a full flap takeoff happen to me even its possible. Just like the guy landed with gear up because he simply forgot to put them down.
 
I don't do touch & go's solo. I do them all the time with my instructor. I have taken off with full flaps once doing a t & g, I cleaned them up one notch at a time and it reinforced to not do them solo.
 
James331 said:
If you don't have the plane under control you already failed, regardless of your position on the field.

If reconfiguring on the go in a simple 172 causes a student to not be in control they are not ready to solo / act as PIC.

"Taking your time" is great, so is "being safe" but when it's used as an excuse for not being able to preform under pressure, its counter productive.

You should already have your flows down cold, muscle memory, touching down your wheels, flaps up, power up, climb out etc. If you can't execute that everytime, bang, bang, bang, you are way to far behind the aircraft.
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I disagree. There is no reason for a Part 91 piston pilot to "perform under pressure." I'm sure that Cap'n Ron could come up with many military scenarios in which speed of action is essential, but not Joe Sixpack in his 172.

"Cleared for takeoff or hold short." Hold short. Don't do anything in a hurry. Haste makes bent aluminum/composite. When you graduate to turbines the consequences of making a mistake go up astronomically and taking one's time pays off.

As I say in my multiengine book, "Don't just do something, sit there."

Bob
 
evapilotaz said:
I appreciate the comments. I really never go 40 degrees downon the Cessna. So going immediately retract 20% seems excessive. Could a full flap takeoff happen to me even its possible. Just like the guy landed with gear up because he simply forgot to put them down.
Click to expand...

Beyond a certain point it's not lift just extra drag, going to the max lift right off the bat makes sense, otherwise you're trying to put more air over that wing while dragging...well drag, for no good reason.


bobmrg said:
I disagree. There is no reason for a Part 91 piston pilot to "perform under pressure." I'm sure that Cap'n Ron could come up with many military scenarios in which speed of action is essential, but not Joe Sixpack in his 172.

"Cleared for takeoff or hold short." Hold short. Don't do anything in a hurry. Haste makes bent aluminum/composite. When you graduate to turbines the consequences of making a mistake go up astronomically and taking one's time pays off.

As I say in my multiengine book, "Don't just do something, sit there."

Bob
Click to expand...

I understand where you're coming from.

It's just not how I instruct, I've found when crap gets real it doesn't much care if your pt91, 135 or military, being able to act quickly and precisely is essential in this business, even if you aren't doing it professionally.


Compared to some things that can occur in the cockpit, simple touch and goes are rather mundane and not asking that much of a competent pilot, my sub 15hr per solo students could execute them well consistently. Heck my per solo guys I instructed in the Grumman could do them, reconfiguring and all, without ever letting that nose wheel touch.


All the turbines I've flown, our check airman expects speed and precision :dunno: If ya can't do T&Gs in that 172 best stay away from faster and more complex planes IMO
 
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FWIW, From the Airbus 318/319/320/321 FCTM discussing Touch and Goes to give some an idea of how it's accomplished in much more complex aircraft.


5. Touch and Go
Touch and go are used to reduce the amount of training time wasted in taxying the
aircraft back to the holding point and awaiting take-off clearance. In order to maintain
a high level of safety they must be conducted in a properly disciplined manner.

The following technique is to be used :
· Prior to EVERY touch and go, the instructor will confirm with the trainee that :
- the spoilers will not be armed
- reverse thrust will not be used
- brakes (auto or manual) will not be used
· The trainee will :
- land the nosewheel after main gear touchdown (which also allows pitch trim reset)
- track the runway centreline using rudder pedal inputs only
· advance the thrust levers approximately 2" (5 cm) forward (to prevent engines
reducing to ground idle).
· The instructor will :
- call "stand up"
- move the flap handle to the position two detent and confirm the flaps are running
- reset the rudder trim if necessary
- monitor the forward movement of the pitch trim
- place one hand behind the thrust levers ensuring they are advanced
approximately 2" (5 cm)
- reset the FDs and crossbars as necessary
- call "GO".
· The trainee will :
- advance the thrust levers to the TOGA detent
- maintain the runway centreline.
· The instructor will :
- monitor engine acceleration
- check FMA announciation (when appropriate)
- check GA thrust obtained and call "POWER SET"
- call "ROTATE" at VAPP
- maintain his hand behind the thrust levers to ensure no inadvertent reduction of
power or unwanted stop
· The trainee will :
- rotate the aircraft to the pitch attitude commanded by the SRS or 15° if no FD is
available.
· Following gear retraction the instructor will call for CLB thrust.
· The trainee will move the thrust levers to the CLB detent (the FMA will read CLB
SRS GA TRK).
At acceleration altitude or ALT*, which ever occurs first, and F speed : select FLAP 1.
Approach may be activated at this stage, or as soon as the required flaps
configuration for the following circuit is reached (configuration other than 1).
 
evapilotaz said:
I appreciate the comments. I really never go 40 degrees downon the Cessna. So going immediately retract 20% seems excessive. Could a full flap takeoff happen to me even its possible. Just like the guy landed with gear up because he simply forgot to put them down.
Click to expand...

You cannot execute a (correct) short field landing without using full flap. See the checklist.

The extra drag is quite helpful in steepening the approach for an accurate spot landing.

With a few exceptions, touching down with full flaps and idle power is how you do it in a 172.. Note that does not necessarily mean a power off approach.
 
evapilotaz said:
I appreciate the comments. I really never go 40 degrees downon the Cessna. So going immediately retract 20% seems excessive. Could a full flap takeoff happen to me even its possible. Just like the guy landed with gear up because he simply forgot to put them down.
Click to expand...

In the 150/152/172, going from 30->40 degrees is almost all drag, no lift. Thus there is no sink if you go from 40->30. You can therefore immediately go one notch beyond the "all drag" regime to flaps 20 and let the airspeed and positive climb build.
 
Ok I was taught differently. I was never taught to use 40 degrees during a short field landing. I always used 30 degrees. If the situation warrant it to use 40 degrees I would.
 
What situation warrants 40 if not a short field landing?
 
David,

Take these responses with a grain of salt. Some are spot on and some I'd disagree with. The problem with the Internet is that we are not sitting next to you.

Ask your instructor about using full flaps, ICW the POH/AFM to short and soft field landings. Ask your instructor to demonstrate a go around while failing to retract the flaps. It will show you why you need to remember to bring them up. Ask your instructor to demonstrate and then supervise you while you do landings at all available flap settings. If your instructor doesn't feel comfortable doing this, seek out another instructor.
 
Why not just go up to altitude and try flying with different flap settings? I fly a 150 and at 40 you will sink no matter what, 30 will pretty much hold, 20 will start to climb (ymmv). I wouldn't expect to get off the ground at 30 or 40 and 20 would be trimming the trees. Try taking off with too much flaps and you will know about and want them up asap.
 
aggie06 said:
What situation warrants 40 if not a short field landing?
Click to expand...


I land full flaps for every landing minus heavy crosswinds, touching down slow is a good thing
 
jonnyjetprop said:
David,

Take these responses with a grain of salt. Some are spot on and some I'd disagree with. The problem with the Internet is that we are not sitting next to you.

Ask your instructor about using full flaps, ICW the POH/AFM to short and soft field landings. Ask your instructor to demonstrate a go around while failing to retract the flaps. It will show you why you need to remember to bring them up. Ask your instructor to demonstrate and then supervise you while you do landings at all available flap settings. If your instructor doesn't feel comfortable doing this, seek out another instructor.
Click to expand...

I'm not a student Pilot so no instructor. :dunno:
 
Any time I do a T&G, my palm is pushing in the throttle while my finger is pushing up the flap switch. And every time, I verbalize "Full power, flaps comin' up, airspeed's alive." Making this a habit now makes it muscle memory.

I suggest you practice go arounds too. You need to step the flaps up 20-10-0 for that too. I do the same verbalization, talking to myself: "Full power, flaps up one." Then it's "Climbing flaps up some more." And finally I tell myself "ok flaps up" once it's safe and clear.

Some people think you're crazy if you talk to yourself. But I find talking to myself works wonders. And I never disagree with myself either, so it's a pleasant conversation.
 
Pedals your not crazy. I have done the same and still do.

So this thread really took a twist. I'm still wondering if anyone accidently took off with full flaps and what did they do to correct the situation.
 
evapilotaz said:
Pedals your not crazy. I have done the same and still do.

So this thread really took a twist. I'm still wondering if anyone accidently took off with full flaps and what did they do to correct the situation.
Click to expand...

David, I did it two weeks ago, in a 12g15 cross wind. As soon as the wheels left the ground, my instructor calmly told me the flaps were down and to continue to climb and raise them one notch at a time. It was a non event, but I still am not going to do touch and go's solo.
 
A few months ago, a Cessna 152 took off with full flaps. The student and CFI were killed when whomever fully retracted the flaps rather than stepping them up 20-10-0. The plane will fall out from under you. If you don't have sufficient altitude to recover, or you panic and pull back on the stick, it's over. Just like a departure stall.
 
I trained in a 150 and I rarely used full 40 degree flaps. One day I was coming in for a landing while training. CFI was on board..Full flaps out set up nicely on final. Just as the wheels were about to touch he yells go around..I jammed the throttle in and wouldn't you know the nose pitched up like mad! It took everything I had to push the nose forward. I had to lock my elbows so I would go nose high. I said at that point I wont use full 40 degree flaps. That's just me.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
A few months ago, a Cessna 152 took off with full flaps. The student and CFI were killed when whomever fully retracted the flaps rather than stepping them up 20-10-0. The plane will fall out from under you. If you don't have sufficient altitude to recover, or you panic and pull back on the stick, it's over. Just like a departure stall.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I did that once in a 172, except for the dying part. Made it over the fence, just barely, puckered the traffic driving past the end of the runway, took a while to extract the seat cushion. A graphic lesson in what not to do.
 
asechrest said:
MAKG1 is right about the flaps cleanup procedure. If your CFI taught you differently, it's probably just because the CFI doesn't know. Mine didn't, and I considered her a good instructor. I read the POH and changed my procedure not too terribly long before my checkride. On the 40* flaps Cessnas, you cleanup immediately to 20*, then 10 and 10.

He's also right about it occasionally killing people. Didn't we just have a 150 go down recently, with failure to retract flaps as the potential cause?
Click to expand...
At my home airport, KLRO. Took off with full flaps. 2 dead. I've done go arounds with 40 degrees of flaps while in the flare. Just have to be on your toes while cleaning up and it's no problem.
 
simtech said:
I said at that point I wont use full 40 degree flaps. That's just me.
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40° flaps is a tool Cessna thought a pilot could use to their advantage. I did, and many do. It's how all my students were taught.

Your choice, of course not to use them.

Cessna kind of agreed with you by later limiting them to 30°.

I felt like I lost a performance option, all to save inept pilots from themselves.

NOT implying you are inept. Cessna was probably wise, from a liability standpoint, to eliminate a feature that was getting pilots in trouble.

But there you gave it!
 
FastEddieB said:
40° flaps is a tool Cessna thought a pilot could use to their advantage. I did, and many do. It's how all my students were taught.

Your choice, of course not to use them.

Cessna kind of agreed with you by later limiting them to 30°.

I felt like I lost a performance option, all to save inept pilots from themselves.

NOT implying you are inept. Cessna was probably wise, from a liability standpoint, to eliminate a feature that was getting pilots in trouble.

But there you gave it!
Click to expand...

You calling me inept!!!! oh wait no you weren't:D

My Cherokee has 40 degree flaps and I use them all the time for every landing.. Heck just last weekend I had 40 degree flaps and I was slipping:hairraise:! The Cessna flaps are barn doors compared to piper. I know they have there place but in the 150 be ready because its gonna pitch up.
 
aggie06 said:
What situation warrants 40 if not a short field landing?
Click to expand...
Short field with a high obstacle close on the approach end. About all 40 vs 30 does for you in a light Cessna single is allow a steeper approach without building airspeed. It's pretty seldom IMO that 40* is beneficial.
 
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