Flap retraction on landing

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ted6357

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On light singles [e.g. C152/C172 etc.] and perhaps light twin engine aircrafts, do you think it is good practice to retract the flaps soon after touchdown on landing as an aid to dump/kill the lift? [the equivalent of raising the spoilers on larger aircraft].
 
Yes during short field ops. Otherwise get them on your after landing flow once you have exited the runway.
 
FAA Flight Training Handbook:

After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure may be gradually relaxed to place normal weight on the nosewheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane should be allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.
 
ted6357 said:
On light singles [e.g. C152/C172 etc.] and perhaps light twin engine aircrafts, do you think it is good practice to retract the flaps soon after touchdown on landing as an aid to dump/kill the lift? [the equivalent of raising the spoilers on larger aircraft].
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On some airplanes such as the Beech BE23 series it's recommended to lift the flaps to increase wheel braking. The BE23 will easily wheel lock on touchdown with flaps.

I haven't seen that recommendation on other singles. As far as light twins I don't consider it a good idea to move the flaps until exiting the runway for the simple reason of diverting your attention, you wouldn't want to accidentally raise the gear.

As far as the comparison of raising spoilers on a large aircraft being similar to dumping flaps on a light airplane, there is no comparison.
 
I've done it for heavy cross winds, float ops, and a few other occasions.

It's a tool to use, just know how and when to use it.

Also works best with manual flaps.
 
In 152/172's i retract during the rollout. It aids in braking by shifting the weight from toward the front to back on the mains and reduces skidding. (This is the way i was taught anyway)
 
If it's a short field I'll do it. Otherwise, I don't play with anything until I exit the runway.
 
It's my SOP. I can reach the flap switch while holding the throttle to idle, but have to let go and reach up for the gear knob.
 
Yes, I do it. Kills lift for more effective braking and makes the airplane less susceptible to wind gusts. Maybe not a good idea with a retractable but not likely to mistake the johnson bar flap handle for the gear switch in a Cessna 170 ;)
 
In a 152/172 with electric flaps it's of little effect. By the time the mains touch and the nose wheel drops the AOA has decreased to a point where there is no need to be concerned about lift generated from the flaps. In fact, initially all you are going to do is reduce the drag they provide at full deployment.

I know some people do it regardless but you are not going to find any verifiable statistic to indicate that doing it will increase landing performance in any way.
 
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I lift the flaps as soon as the wheels are on the ground.

I flew 7000+ hours on gravel strips, most under 2500 feet. I did this in the C-206/7, 208 Caravan, Piper Navajo and Chieftain, and Beech 99. This helps reduce damage to the flaps and tail.

As mentioned earlier, lifting the flaps on touch down is a tool, use it as needed.
 
Zeldman said:
I lift the flaps as soon as the wheels are on the ground.

I flew 7000+ hours on gravel strips, most under 2500 feet. I did this in the C-206/7, 208 Caravan, Piper Navajo and Chieftain, and Beech 99. This helps reduce damage to the flaps and tail.

As mentioned earlier, lifting the flaps on touch down is a tool, use it as needed.
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I do the same in the 'van as well. But for teaching purposes I teach flaps after exit runway.
 
Flaps after clear of the runway,don't want to hit the wrong switch while on runway.
 
In general, I try to fly in the same manner as I teach.

And I try to teach to FAA standards.

So, it has become my habit to leave the flaps alone right after landing, and that habit has served me well for the kind of flying I do.

I understand there may be special cases where it's a valid technique.

Alex Wolf is an experienced Cirrus instructor. He recently posted a simulated engine out in a Cirrus to a 2,100' strip:

http://youtu.be/Lew__usHLCE

You can fast forward to about 3:25 for the flaps part.

It looks to me like he raises the flaps just prior to landing, and it seems to work. Not criticizing - in an emergency you do what you need to do and are skilled enough to pull off. Still, it's not a technique I ever recall being taught or teaching.
 
yup....flaps and everything stays fixed till we turn off the runway. If I can't have a secondary confirm that what I'm touching is a flap lever....it stays. Once, turned off we do a visual and verbal confirm before changing flap position....and opening cowl flaps.

But, if I flew a Cherokee or a Skyhawk....ya, I'd dump flaps on landing.
 
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I always dump the flaps immediately after touchdown. The Archer will take back off with minimal back preasure otherwise.
 
Depends. The da20s I've flown feel better once on the ground after the flaps are retracted. (Then again, tie a rope on the front of one and with a decent wind and you have a kite..)

Now in the old Bo, nothing gets touched on the panel until Im stopped on the taxi way. Remember, a gear retraction totals my oldie. (The good news is the Bo is quite draggy with the flaps hanging out- way more stable in gusts than the da20.)
 
I like to save my brakes. I retract flaps. I have a FG aiplane and my hand knows where the handle is located. It's idiot proof.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
But, if I flew a Cherokee or a Skyhawk....ya, I'd dump flaps on landing.
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Even in a plane with a Johnson Bar flap handle like the PA-28 or PA-32, it is still all situations. Landing on the Alton Bay Ice Runway, dumping flaps will improve braking from zero to nil. Flaps down for max aerodynamic braking. Below flying speed, elevator full up.

-Skip
 
In my CTSW I land with the stick full aft and 30 degrees of flaps. I retract to negative flaps on roll out. The difference is huge, reflex flaps definitely keep me planted where more flaps and a big gust could get me airborne and or drifting / skidding.

I don't plan on flying retracts in the future cause I'm old and poor.
 
FastEddieB said:
In general, I try to fly in the same manner as I teach.

And I try to teach to FAA standards.

So, it has become my habit to leave the flaps alone right after landing, and that habit has served me well for the kind of flying I do.
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One of the FAA standards is checklist use.

Though it really doesn't seem to make much difference, that means flap retraction in Cessnas with short field technique.
 
My Beech Sierra has a placard to retract flaps upon landing to increase braking effectiveness.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
For heavy cross winds in a PA-28, dumping the flaps, if you landed with flaps, gets weight on the mains to prevent drifting sideways. Yoke forward after nose wheel is down also compresses the strut, reduces AOA and puts weight on the mains. Regular practice - leave flaps in for aerodynamic braking and seldom use the brakes.
 
Unit74 said:
I always dump the flaps immediately after touchdown.
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As do I, especially in a cross wind. It's a non-issue since I have a johnson bar and fixed gear. I wouldn't do this though if I had a retract with two levers close to each other, but I don't and that's not in my future either so I don't worry about it.
 
ted6357 said:
On light singles [e.g. C152/C172 etc.] and perhaps light twin engine aircrafts, do you think it is good practice to retract the flaps soon after touchdown on landing as an aid to dump/kill the lift? [the equivalent of raising the spoilers on larger aircraft].
Click to expand...

No, I land at stall speed by or on the numbers. I never need to be in that big of a hurry to clean up the flaps, I also don't typically do touch and goes. Collect your thoughts, control the plane, notice what is going on. If you have full flaps in, they provide more drag than lift. That period of dumping electric flaps will take you through the phase of increasing lift and decreasing drag when you are at greatest risk. Manual flaps that's not an issue.
 
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This is one of those questions where you will get plenty of different answers. I usually do retract them about 2 seconds after I touchdown. Once I am certain I have the plane under control and decelerating. In a retract I am more hesitant to do it at higher speeds and usually wait until I can look down and verify that it is in fact the flap handle I am reaching for and not the gear. If I need to get on the brakes quick I will definitely retract the flaps soon, but normal ops, I do it when I feel I'm not task saturated. When I fly for work it is procedure that the flaps/slats and spoilers will not be touched until I clear the runway.
 
I fly either PA28's or C177RG. On both I lift the flaps on touchdown, every time. I can tell the difference.

If I were flying a retract where there was danger of lever confusion I wouldn't do that.
 
MAKG1 said:
One of the FAA standards is checklist use.

Though it really doesn't seem to make much difference, that means flap retraction in Cessnas with short field technique.
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In general, I would say the a manufacturer's recommended procedures trump broad FAA recommendations in their publications.

To all the pilots saying they retract flaps immediately after landing as a normal procedure, I'm curious if you were taught that way originally or started doing it on your own, either independently or under the tutelage of another instructor.
 
FastEddieB said:
In general, I would say the a manufacturer's recommended procedures trump broad FAA recommendations in their publications.

To all the pilots saying they retract flaps immediately after landing as a normal procedure, I'm curious if you were taught that way originally or started doing it on your own, either independently or under the tutelage of another instructor.
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My first plane had full span flaperons that retracted with about 10 full turns of an overhead crank. There was no point given all those turns. Later in my Skyhawk I used the common practice taught here for fixed gear Cessnas and retracted the flaps on roll out to deal with the not uncommon wind shear that can take a fully stalled high wing with light loading flying or skidding sideways.
 
FastEddieB said:
In general, I would say the a manufacturer's recommended procedures trump broad FAA recommendations in their publications.

To all the pilots saying they retract flaps immediately after landing as a normal procedure, I'm curious if you were taught that way originally or started doing it on your own, either independently or under the tutelage of another instructor.
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I was taught to do that to try to minimize damage to the flaps from gravel runways. Plus since I am going to use short gravel strips I needed to be able to stop in the distance allowed. I flew at the extreme edge of the envelope. Its called knowing my limitations and how to use them.

On the long paved runways I fly to now, on a calm day, I will wait and do my after landing flow while on the roll out. Flaps are a tool and I will do what I need to do to ensure a safe and soft touch down and rollout. And sometimes that means throwing the book out the window.

I fly for a living so this is a no brainer for me. Sometimes I land with a 60 degree, 40 knot crosswind, something most private pilots would (should) not do. I would not recommend lifting flaps at touchdown to someone that does not fly every day and could confuse the flap handle for the ejection seat handle....:wink2:

If a person thinks they may confuse a round handle with a flat handle, I suggest sitting in the plane blind folded and learning where each switch and handle is at.

Fly wise, fly safe. If you are uncomfortable, don't do it.
 
I may not be as qualified as some of the older members here to answer, but personally I always retract flaps at touchdown, as well as go full aft on the yoke or stick as soon as I'm far enough under flying speed that there's no danger of a gust getting me airborne again (to be fair, the second may just be a habit that carries over from tailwheel flying).

This goes for both retract and FG aircraft. However, the retracts I fly really have no chance of confusing the flaps and gear. If I thought there was a chance, I would probably leave them. I feel like it helps the braking and controllability a lot, especially in airplanes prone to floating, like the Diamonds.

One other technique I use with mechanical flaps is to slowly retract flaps a few inches off the ground. This is probably not a great practice, to be fair, but in my dad's STOL kit equipped 172B, it will not settle on the ground with flaps in until under 40MPH, and doesn't grip the ground until almost 30. Easing the flaps out on that last few inches makes it much more stable at touchdown. However, that airplane is one I've spent a lot of time in, and it's very quirky. I wouldn't recommend trying it, and I'll probably be railed for admitting to it ;)


Bottom line, as the poster above me said, do what you're comfortable with, do what you've learned. It's okay to develop your own technique, but only after you know the airplane and have reached a high level of comfort with it.
 
FastEddieB said:
FAA Flight Training Handbook:

After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure may be gradually relaxed to place normal weight on the nosewheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane should be allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.
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:yeahthat:

And there are very, very few light planes where the takeoff roll is shorter than landing roll with flaps left extended, so there is almost never anything to be gained by retracting the flaps on landing unless you are planning to have the plane trucked out of the landing site. If you have two pilots so one can focus on controlling the aircraft on rollout while the other cleans up the plane, that's fine, but for single pilot ops in light aircraft, history tells us the potential bad results outweigh the potential gains. Sure, you can't retract the gear on rollout on a Grumman Tiger, but the habits you develop in simple singles will follow you to more complex aircraft, and that's when you'll get bit.
 
In the real world more comes into play on the benifits of dumping the flaps.

Touch and goes in the Grumman AA1 I tought in, wheels down, flap switch up, power up and go. A good presolo student could do touch and goes with the nose wheel never touching the ground, while manipulating flaps, power, and maintaining directional control. That's pre solo....

I do it often in my 185 amphib, which is a retract, with two safe and two unsafe positions, landing its wheels down or up, flaps out, hold the nose wheels off or nose up, touch the nose wheels or let the nose come down, cowl flaps and mixture for ground.

On more complex planes like say a PC12, the flaps and gear are in competly different places, completely different knobs, I don't know how you could screw that one up.

Crosswinds it's a good option, unimproved strips etc.

Like I said early on, it's a tool, know why and when to use it.
 
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James331 said:
Like I said early on, it's a tool, know why and when to use it.
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Please explain the conditions where there is a quantifiable, demonstrable advantage to be gained by dumping flaps on touchdown in a light single, and what that advantage is. I can tell for absolute certain that there is no quantifiable advantage to be gained in an AA-1-series Grumman in terms of shortening the landing roll, since the takeoff roll is roughly twice the landing roll even with flaps left down.
 
For a Grumman guru, to should know you don't take off with full flaps :D

On a cross wind having the plane STOP flying as much as possible on wheels down is an advantage.

On a gravel strip getting more weight on the wheels and less surface for rocks to chew up is an advantage.

That's just off the cuff.
 
James331 said:
On a cross wind having the plane STOP flying as much as possible on wheels down is an advantage.
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That's neither quantifiable nor demonstrable in an AA-1 -- you can handle just as much crosswind either way thanks to the minimal difference between flaps up and flaps down stall speed. I've landed one with full flaps in a 35-knot crosswind, and if you think you want to land one in more than that, I'd have to question your judgment.

On a gravel strip getting more weight on the wheels and less surface for rocks to chew up is an advantage.
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I don't see how additional weight on the wheels will reduce the number of rocks thrown up, but I do see your point about getting the flaps out of the path of rocks thrown up by the main wheels. However, given the number of landing accidents involving loss of control after landing, and the paucity of cases of gravel damage to flaps, I don't see that as making it worth doing even on a gravel strip.
 
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