Fixed gear ditching

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JOhnH

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Similar to the Forced Landing thread,

Is there any technique for ditching a fixed gear small plane in water without tumbling?
 
Save for ideal circumstances (Like flying in a strong headwind with next to no groundspeed into the front of a swell) Chances are you're going over.

I seem to recall the ditching procedure in several fixed gear AFMs stating that the occupants should shield their faces with blankets, jackets or anything to avoid getting blasted with plexiglass and water.

Either way, the flip is probably survivable, the key is to get out before you drown... pop the doors first.
 
That woman who put that PA-32 down in the Hudson about six months ago, Denise De Priester, pulled it off. I think she dragged the tail and got as slow as she could.
 
It seem to me that as long as their is any forward motion when the gear catches the water, over you go.
It's survivable, I have a friend in Daytona who did.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Depends on the layout, go watch the videos of amphobs landing with gear down on water, there over before they know it.
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Invalid comparison. Floats move the CG away from the fuselage, and you have a huge moment arm.
 
Most likely you are going to tumble, (don't go flaming the hell out this statement, I said MOST likely) survivability depends on water temperature, distance from rescue services or shore, and flotation devices. Since that ditching on the Hudson last year, whenever we are planning to fly over any expanse of water, the inflatable life vests are on in the plane. I now carry three of them on board.
 
JOhnH said:
Similar to the Forced Landing thread,

Is there any technique for ditching a fixed gear small plane in water without tumbling?
Click to expand...

Same technique as a soft field landing, if I was ditching your plane I would trim it full nose up and lock the brakes on. Orientation to the waves depends on their height. Contrary to popular misconception, the plane will typically not go inverted.
 
If you're wearing them they're survival equipment. If you're carrying them on the plane they're camping equipment.

DutchessFlier said:
Most likely you are going to tumble, (don't go flaming the hell out this statement, I said MOST likely) survivability depends on water temperature, distance from rescue services or shore, and flotation devices. Since that ditching on the Hudson last year, whenever we are planning to fly over any expanse of water, the inflatable life vests are on in the plane. I now carry three of them on board.
Click to expand...
 
Well if you could manage to go in inverted, wouldn't you then end up right side up?
 
I've only witnessed one ditching. A fixed gear high wing cessna. They seemed to do everying textbook perfect. Touched down with full flaps at low speed. Stayed upright. Plane floated for several minutes. 2 never got out. We circled overhead and watched the other 2 tire and drown. I firmly believe most pilots are far too dismissive of water. I'd rather go into trees than water, at least if i survive the crash i can remain alive conscious or not while waiting for help.
 
This is a timely thread, since we live on an island. Our planned engine out scenario, presuming that we're high enough to make the beach, but not high enough to make the "impossible turn" back to the runway, is to ditch just off shore.

If it's during the off-season, we would likely try for the wet sand on the shore, avoiding the water altogether -- but this option would not be available during the summer, when tens of thousands flock to our beaches. Mowing down a hundred tourists in a forced landing would be bad form.

Luckily, the water is quite shallow -- but a flip-over is a huge area of concern for us. I can see that it would be quite possible to drown in 4' of water in the -8, if the canopy jammed on impact.

Perhaps this is one time when the RV-8A's somewhat sketchy nose gear would be an asset? :lol:
 
Better if you made it into a retract. One of the reasons the AgCat is the preferred type for doing rice work is that if you go into the paddy, the top wing keeps you out of the water.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
It seem to me that as long as their is any forward motion when the gear catches the water, over you go.
It's survivable, I have a friend in Daytona who did.
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That's the "common" belief but from what I've read (never tried an actual ditching in an airplane) and experienced landing a kite or hang glider in water I'd expect that as long as you touched tail first or nearly so, you'd remain upright until the plane started to sink.

Amphib floatplanes tend to flip at a fairly high airspeed when landed (watered?) on water with the gear out but that's because the floats submarine. A catamaran sailboat with capped hulls does the same thing if you catch a hull on a wave on a beam reach at speed yet the same catamaran remains right side up (at least longitudinally) as long as you keep the sterns lower than the bows.

And flipping a floatplane is often fatal, but most light plane ditchings leave the occupants conscious enough to escape the cabin if they keep their wits about them.
 
gismo said:
...most light plane ditchings leave the occupants conscious enough to escape the cabin if they keep their wits about them.
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that's a big IF. The first time I did the dunk & roll class it was in a pool with clear water and the lights were on. We had briefed it and I knew what was supposed to happen. I still managed to get disoriented in the upside-down submerged fuselage. I did get out of the cockpit into the cabin but I couldn't figure out what to do next between being disoriented and running out of breath. The diver had to save me. Now take someone who never took the class and make their first time in murky water, maybe in the dark, with all the loose items from the airplane floating around in there with you. I don't think keeping your wits is an assumption I'd be willing to make.
 
JHW said:
that's a big IF. The first time I did the dunk & roll class it was in a pool with clear water and the lights were on. We had briefed it and I knew what was supposed to happen. I still managed to get disoriented in the upside-down submerged fuselage. I did get out of the cockpit into the cabin but I couldn't figure out what to do next between being disoriented and running out of breath. The diver had to save me. Now take someone who never took the class and make their first time in murky water, maybe in the dark, with all the loose items from the airplane floating around in there with you. I don't think keeping your wits is an assumption I'd be willing to make.
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Water survival is a hell of a class ain't it? Lol I love the dunker, That's the one cert I look forward to renewing every 5 years, that and firefighting. I never got mixed up in it, but I'm a wreck/tech diver that was trained to save myself before I ever got in the dunker.
 
gismo said:
And flipping a floatplane is often fatal, but most light plane ditchings leave the occupants conscious enough to escape the cabin if they keep their wits about them.
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Nope, flipping a amphib tends to result in a bruised pilot sitting ontop of a float rather embarrassed
 
Is there a reason you don't just land on the beach, Jay? I assume because of people but don't know.
 
DutchessFlier said:
Most likely you are going to tumble, (don't go flaming the hell out this statement, I said MOST likely) survivability depends on water temperature, distance from rescue services or shore, and flotation devices.
Click to expand...
Most likely to tumble?? The stats tell a far different story.
 
wabower said:
If you're wearing them they're survival equipment. If you're carrying them on the plane they're camping equipment.
Click to expand...


"the inflatable life vests are on in the plane"

Agreed, that's why I wrote the statement as I did above...they are being worn in the plane.
 
JHW said:
that's a big IF. The first time I did the dunk & roll class it was in a pool with clear water and the lights were on. We had briefed it and I knew what was supposed to happen. I still managed to get disoriented in the upside-down submerged fuselage. I did get out of the cockpit into the cabin but I couldn't figure out what to do next between being disoriented and running out of breath. The diver had to save me. Now take someone who never took the class and make their first time in murky water, maybe in the dark, with all the loose items from the airplane floating around in there with you. I don't think keeping your wits is an assumption I'd be willing to make.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Having some experience diving in murky water and strong currents I know how easy it is to get disoriented. Fortunately, in many cases the cockpit remains intact and right side up and even inverted there will be a fair amount of air trapped long enough to orient yourself if you're willing to accept that the airplane is upside down without being able to see outside.
 
DutchessFlier said:
"the inflatable life vests are on in the plane"

Agreed, that's why I wrote the statement as I did above...they are being worn in the plane.
Click to expand...
I've never insisted my pax wear life vests while cruising over water. From any rational water crossing altitude you will have at least a few minutes to don them prior to splashdown. If they can't manage that, they're probably not going to make it out of the cabin either.
 
gismo said:
I've never insisted my pax wear life vests while cruising over water. From any rational water crossing altitude you will have at least a few minutes to don them prior to splashdown. If they can't manage that, they're probably not going to make it out of the cabin either.
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:yes::eek::rolleyes:
 
JHW said:
...I'd rather go into trees than water, at least if i survive the crash i can remain alive conscious or not while waiting for help.
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After seeing that GoPro video of the guy going into the tree behind Fast Eddie's I kind of agree. I don't think he even got scratched. But the water is deceptively luring, I guess because it's flat and nothing appears to be hidden.
 
Silvaire said:
After seeing that GoPro video of the guy going into the tree behind Fast Eddie's I kind of agree. I don't think he even got scratched. But the water is deceptively luring, I guess because it's flat and nothing appears to be hidden.
Click to expand...


And............... Water does not burn...:no::nonod:
 
> I seem to recall the ditching procedure in several fixed gear AFMs stating that the
> occupants should shield their faces with blankets, jackets or anything to avoid
> getting blasted with plexiglass and water.

USCG teaches that occupants should:

- cross their arms

- grab their shoulder harness high and tight such that the chin rest on:in the
V formed by the forearms. This prevents the neck from hyper-extending at impact.

- If there are no shoulder harness; the occupants should grab their shoulders; in
the same area where a shoulder harness would lay.
 
> I've never insisted my pax wear life vests while cruising over water

Do you have pax demo that they are both knowledgeable and capable of donning PFDs
while seated & belted (before you depart)?
 
Flotation is a two edged sword.
We lost one of two folks on a boat when their pilot house boat rolled over when it was hit broadside by a rogue wave. They were wearing auto inflating gear. Which automatically inflated in the rapidly filling underwater cabin trapping them. One managed to roll/claw out the cabin door and then push off the side of the cockpit and pop to the surface.. The other drowned.
So that is the argument for manual control of inflation - which is a two edged sword.
In a plane:
If you are dazed or unconscious you won't pull it in time.
If it is auto inflating you may be trapped in the cabin.
 
denverpilot said:
Is there a reason you don't just land on the beach, Jay? I assume because of people but don't know.
Click to expand...

From my post, upstream a few posts:

"If it's during the off-season, we would likely try for the wet sand on the shore, avoiding the water altogether -- but this option would not be available during the summer, when tens of thousands flock to our beaches. Mowing down a hundred tourists in a forced landing would be bad form."
 
rainsux said:
> I've never insisted my pax wear life vests while cruising over water

Do you have pax demo that they are both knowledgeable and capable of donning PFDs
while seated & belted (before you depart)?
Click to expand...
If it's not my usual crew (wife and daughter) who already know how, yes.
 
JOhnH said:
No, but then trees don't often have sharks or alligators looking for a tasty treat.
:eek:
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm...

Name the last time a plane crash victim was eaten by a Alligator or Shark...:rolleyes:....

I am guessing... NEVER...:no::nonod:
 
JOhnH said:
No, but then trees don't often have sharks or alligators looking for a tasty treat.
:eek:
Click to expand...

Lol, I love flying low over the Everglades at night with the landing lights on and seeing all the glowing dots.:rofl::eek::rofl:
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmmm...

Name the last time a plane crash victim was eaten by a Alligator or Shark...:rolleyes:....

I am guessing... NEVER...:no::nonod:
Click to expand...

Alligators and sharks do not speak English, how would you know?

Retractable low wing are the best for ditching.

When ditching choose your rescue wisely

José
 

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N801BH said:
Hmmmmm...

Name the last time a plane crash victim was eaten by a Alligator or Shark...:rolleyes:....

I am guessing... NEVER...:no::nonod:
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Mmmmm, I'm betting the remains of the two airliners that went into the glades made for some snacking.
 
Henning said:
Mmmmm, I'm betting the remains of the two airliners that went into the glades made for some snacking.
Click to expand...

Eastern Fl 301 had no victims consumed or even chewed on.....

Value Jet did offer some bite sized appitizers for the gators though.:eek:
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmmm...

Name the last time a plane crash victim was eaten by a Alligator or Shark...:rolleyes:....

I am guessing... NEVER...:no::nonod:
Click to expand...
I am sure it won't happen in Wyoming. But if you go feet wet in S Florida direct to KEYW and look down you might not be so confident.
 
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