Five flight service stations to close

flyingcheesehead said:
Probably because they'd have to change all the charts and other printed materials.
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Sectionals change every six months. IFR charts and the A/FD change every eight weeks. I don't see a problem.

Or maybe just so that they know roughly where you're calling from.
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When you call and say, "Green Bay Radio, Airmaster 83289, receiving Janesville VOR", they know you're near Janesville. When you call and say, "Green Bay Radio, Airmaster 83289, receiving Mackinac Island RCO", they know you're near Mackinac Island.

If you're near Janesville or Mackinac Island, and the guy you're calling is in eastern Virginia, why should "Green Bay" be part of the callup?
 
jmaynard said:
This is one I don't get...Why, when I'm asking for a standard VFR route briefing, do they always (or nearly so) tell me that the glideslope on the KFRM ILS 31 is not usable for coupled approaches below 1480 MSL?
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Because the man in training school last week said to. Probably for "liability purposes."
 
roncachamp said:
Sectionals change every six months. IFR charts and the A/FD change every eight weeks. I don't see a problem.
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This is government. Changes to anything are a problem, unless politics dictates that it should happen RIGHT NOW. It's probably still in committee. :rolleyes:

Actually, I'm guessing maybe the real reason is that the radio calls go to random hubs. :dunno:

When you call and say, "Green Bay Radio, Airmaster 83289, receiving Janesville VOR", they know you're near Janesville. When you call and say, "Green Bay Radio, Airmaster 83289, receiving Mackinac Island RCO", they know you're near Mackinac Island.
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Yeah, but if you're in Virginia and you're trying to cover half the country, you may not even have a clue where Janesville or Mackinac Island is.

Reminds me of one of my L-M briefings. I got a "Wisconsin" briefer, and it seemed to me right off the bat that they were a newbie, so I asked "Are you familiar with Wisconsin, or do you want the identifiers?" The answer was "Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with Wisconsin."

"Okay then, I'd like a standard briefing for a VFR flight departing Madison at..."

"Waitwaitwait, what's the identifier for Madison?" :rolleyes:

So, I just gave identifiers of all of them. To say you're "familiar" with a state and you don't even know the identifier for one of the three largest airports in that state... Bogus.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This is government. Changes to anything are a problem, unless politics dictates that it should happen RIGHT NOW. It's probably still in committee.
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The point is they're being changed anyway.

Yeah, but if you're in Virginia and you're trying to cover half the country, you may not even have a clue where Janesville or Mackinac Island is.
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Just as you may not even have a clue where Green Bay is.
 
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roncachamp said:
The point is they're being changed anyway.
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Interesting. Any idea on the time frame of that? Hasn't happened here yet. :dunno:

Yeah, but if you're in Virginia and you're trying to cover half the country, you may not even have a clue where Janesville or Mackinac Island is.
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Just as you may not even have a clue where Green Bay is.
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True, but it's much easier to memorize a list of a couple dozen closed FSS names and what areas they covered than it is to memorize half the VOR's, RCO's, etc. in the country. Calling "Green Bay Radio" would at least let them know it's in WI or the UP, and then they could have a short list to look at to see where you really were.

It was just an idea.

BTW, do you work in ATC at GRB, or were you in the FSS?
 
TMetzinger said:
DUATS is official as well. But only DUAT and FSS are "official" providers.
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Tim not sure what you mean there .I use DUATS on AOPA RTFP and of course on Golden Eagle which is the DUATS product. I always thought that breifeings from either Were perfectly acceptable.
 
AdamZ said:
Tim not sure what you mean there .I use DUATS on AOPA RTFP and of course on Golden Eagle which is the DUATS product. I always thought that breifeings from either Were perfectly acceptable.
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Briefings from DUAT(S) are acceptable, no matter what product you use to obtain that briefing provided, I presume, that you have access to the full text of the briefing. They can interpret it for you, but you have to be able to see what was downloaded, which you can with either Golden Eagle or AOPA RTFP.

How AOPA RTFP will change in the upcoming version, I don't know.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Interesting. Any idea on the time frame of that? Hasn't happened here yet.
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I was referring to the publications.

True, but it's much easier to memorize a list of a couple dozen closed FSS names and what areas they covered than it is to memorize half the VOR's, RCO's, etc. in the country. Calling "Green Bay Radio" would at least let them know it's in WI or the UP, and then they could have a short list to look at to see where you really were.
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When FSSs were consolidated in the early '80s from some 300 or so to 61 they didn't retain the names of the defunct stations.

BTW, do you work in ATC at GRB, or were you in the FSS?
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ATC.
 
AdamZ said:
Tim not sure what you mean there .I use DUATS on AOPA RTFP and of course on Golden Eagle which is the DUATS product. I always thought that breifeings from either Were perfectly acceptable.
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As noted elsewhere, as long as you are getting your information from DUAT (regardless of if there's an AOPA or other wrapper around it), you've gotten a briefing.

Getting your weather from the weather channel, or Accuweather, or some of the terminals in pilot rooms doesn't qualify.
 
roncachamp said:
I was referring to the publications.
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So was I - Sectionals, etc. still say Green Bay. I didn't know they were actually going to switch that, you said they were, I thought maybe you knew when too. It's been almost exactly a year and a half since GRB FSS closed (4-22-07, I just looked in my logbook - I flew up there to visit them one last time the night before :( ) and there's been several editions of all the publications since then.

When FSSs were consolidated in the early '80s from some 300 or so to 61 they didn't retain the names of the defunct stations.
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True, but the guys who moved from EAU to GRB, for example, probably already knew most of the VOR's and airport identifiers for the area GRB covered after the consolidation (WI and UP MI). The same can't be said for the people this time around who are trying to cover a couple dozen states.

ATC.
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Cool. I'll have to warn you next time I fly up that way. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
So was I - Sectionals, etc. still say Green Bay. I didn't know they were actually going to switch that, you said they were, I thought maybe you knew when too. It's been almost exactly a year and a half since GRB FSS closed (4-22-07, I just looked in my logbook - I flew up there to visit them one last time the night before :( ) and there's been several editions of all the publications since then.
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You said it was probable that the FSS's name is "Green Bay" even though it's located in Ashburn, Virginia, because they'd have to change all the charts and other printed materials. I pointed out that the charts and other printed materials are changed at regular intervals anyway.

True, but the guys who moved from EAU to GRB, for example, probably already knew most of the VOR's and airport identifiers for the area GRB covered after the consolidation (WI and UP MI). The same can't be said for the people this time around who are trying to cover a couple dozen states.
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Whether the FSS specialist is located in Green Bay or Ashburn he still selects the communications outlet with which to respond to the pilot based on what the pilot says he's receiving, not on how the FSS is addressed.

Learning these names isn't that big of a deal. Spend some time working high altitude ATC and you learn every H VORTAC in the country.
 
roncachamp said:
You said it was probable that the FSS's name is "Green Bay" even though it's located in Ashburn, Virginia, because they'd have to change all the charts and other printed materials. I pointed out that the charts and other printed materials are changed at regular intervals anyway.
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Ah. I see. What I meant is that they'd have to make the effort to actually change what's on the charts, not just shoot a new set to the printer.

Whether the FSS specialist is located in Green Bay or Ashburn he still selects the communications outlet with which to respond to the pilot based on what the pilot says he's receiving, not on how the FSS is addressed.
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Right - But from the visits I did make to FSS, even when they're only covering a state and a half they said it was MUCH easier to find the right button on their end if the pilot said *both* the name of the facility and the frequency. I can't find a pic of their "audio panel" right now unfortunately.

Learning these names isn't that big of a deal. Spend some time working high altitude ATC and you learn every H VORTAC in the country.
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I'm sure - But when you add in the low and terminal VOR's, that's a LOT. None of the new folks are there yet...
 
What happens when the DUAT contract extension expires? Isn't LM suppose to take over the on-line services?
 
ejensen said:
What happens when the DUAT contract extension expires? Isn't LM suppose to take over the on-line services?
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Yeah, but the contracts for DUAT and DUATS were extended in the wake of the LM fiascos. Somebody at the FAA had a brain. :thumbsup:
 
mikea said:
Yeah, but the contracts for DUAT and DUATS were extended in the wake of the LM fiascos. Somebody at the FAA had a brain. :thumbsup:
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Yep, that's why I said 'when the extentions expire'. I don't recall if it was one or two years while LM stands up their replacement web system. I'll miss duat. They still have dial-up service I use once or twice a years. When I first used it that's all there was, no web.
 
ejensen said:
Yep, that's why I said 'when the extentions expire'. I don't recall if it was one or two years while LM stands up their replacement web system. I'll miss duat. They still have dial-up service I use once or twice a years. When I first used it that's all there was, no web.
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So is DUATS going away eventually? What will replace it?
 
Anthony said:
So is DUATS going away eventually? What will replace it?
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Lockheed will have a system that doesn't work as well but will *real soon now* with more funding.

It'll be a continuation of the whole outsource in the first place. The FSSs, which hadn't gotten funding in 20 years, had 1960s green screen mainframe terminals. LM made the impressive demonstration that there were things called PCs with color screens and weather maps and everything that communicated with something called TCP/IP.. You know. Like we all were using at home. It impressed the whee out of AOPA.

They're supposed to be able to share the screens with us during a briefing. That will give us the chance to explain to them where the local airports, navaids, and hazards are. :mad2:

LM will make that "next generation" technology available to us for $nn million more.

In the end they'll still have to use the mainframe back end because that is the FAA ATC backbone.
 
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Anthony said:
So is DUATS going away eventually? What will replace it?
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I'm not totally sure. Hope someone has heard more. LM contract give the the right to provide those services and I'm sure they want the additional income. I recall that LM is planning a web app that would allow you to see what the briefer sees and also do self-briefs, store flight plans and aircraft, etc. I don't think they had a product when the extended the two DUAT contracts.
 
I'm still puzzled why FSS I still see "Montgomery County" and "San Angelo" on the sectionals. In either location as well as many more, you're still talking to the same location... in Fort Worth.

In the end, we'll still have a local station in Texas. That is. if you consider covering a state 800 miles across "local"?
 
mikea said:
They're supposed to be able to share the screens with us during a breifing. That will give us the chance to explain to them where the local airports, navaids, and hazards are. :mad2:

LM will make that "next generation" technology available to us for $nn million more.
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Trapper John
 
jmaynard said:
I still call FSS for a briefing for every cross-country flight. I want a second opinion on the weather.
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I don't. They're not there to give opinions, just read the weather to you. Plus, the times they've volunteered opinions its most often been B.S. I'd rather see my weather on the computer. Between DUATS, ADDS and Golden Eagle I haven't talked to anyone in quite some time.
 
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