First Trip With Passengers

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
Well I finally made my first trip with passengers. Flew about 170nm so not that far. The passengers were my 10yr old daughter and her friend :) Lots learned on this trip.
  1. Even though together they weight only 150lbs, I underestimated the weight of all the stuff their Mom's made them bring (food, drinks, shoes, books, etc). Put another way, that take off caught me by surprise as the nose just wanted to lift off. It was almost like a softfield takeoff. I caught the airspeed drop under 70(mph) and nosed the Skylane right back down towards ground effect. Probably didn't help that our normally 1000msl airport had a DA of 3500! And the landing was interesting as well. Didn't need to flare much as the nose just wanted to be high. So got a good lesson at tail heavy landing. On the way back, I made sure the back was about 30lbs lighter but still noticed being tail heavy.
  2. With such important cargo (my kid and keeping her friend safe too) I made sure to use FF. I realized just how poor the coverage is up in our neck of the woods. They lost me about 40miles to my destination at 6500msl (5500agl). Heck the destination airport doesn't even list any departure/approach frequencies. On the way back I flew at 7500msl thinking I would get it earlier. I used the last frequency where they lost me. They gave me a squawk code but flew almost 30 miles before hearing "Radar Contact". That was kind of a long, wondering what's happening kind of silence.
  3. Also related to FF, the girls hated it. Non-stop chatter, especially once we were on the main MPLS Center frequency. They were trying to watch a movie. One had earbuds under our most cushy DC's and she couldn't turn the headset volume down enough. And her friend was using my daughter's kid headset with dedicated audio input. But she couldn't turn hers down enough either. I almost pulled their receive plugs but I knew better in case there was an emergency. So I need to figure out a inline adapter or something? Ideas anyone??
  4. Kids do slow things down a lot. It takes me about 30 minutes to pre-flight, load all the gadgets, pull out the plane, put the car in the hangar and close the door. Somehow with kids that time bumped out to 1hr. On the return I drove my dad's truck to airport 30min early. When grandma arrived they hit the bathroom and in the plane. Its definitely nice if you can preflight well in advance of the passengers arriving (unless they want to see that part). It also helped that there was a slight tailwind and I was showing 168mph over the ground so the turn flight was like 1hr 8min :)
  5. Getting more comfortable with summer weather up here. The return day was feeling iffy as it started raining but wasn't forecast. But I was looking at all wx sources and the evening indicated it would all start dissipating at my destination as I took off. I called the briefer 2hrs out, they confirmed what I was seeing. So I took a 1hr nap - damn that was awesome. No worrying. Got up, checked radar and no surprises so made the decision to go. I had two really good alternates selected and my wife was aware of them in case she had to pick us up. It went great. When I could get ADS-B wx I could see it dissipating at my destination.
  6. ADS-B wx (especially winds, ceilings and that radar) is awesome....when you get it. I had it on my departure which was so reassuring watching that storm at the destination. And then I lost it :eek: and didn't get it back until about 60 miles from arrival. Our course I could also see out the window :)
  7. On the off day I flew my brother out over the Tamarac Wildlife Refuge (where we used to snowmobile) and up to the Itasca area - wow, beautiful down there....and absolutely no were to land except an occasional road...which are usually not straight. He wondered about being lower and I was like "Bro I am staying at least 4000ft above all that...I want 4 minutes to figure out the problem, not 60sec." He mega enjoyed the flight. At one point (up even higher) I think we saw Fargo and Leech Lake at the same time - it was so clear.
  8. So I am up to 6 passengers so far. I find I really learn a lot when taking up passengers! My goal is at least 10 by the end of summer.
...I have video of my brothers flight and he also has video so once I get his clips I'll upload a 3-4min YouTube video and link it here. His lake shots are awesome and he also got a great clip of the landing with the plane's shadow as we come in right over the road.

This is what its all about :D
 
Sinistar said:
Also related to FF, the girls hated it. Non-stop chatter, especially once we were on the main MPLS Center frequency. They were trying to watch a movie. One had earbuds under our most cushy DC's and she couldn't turn the headset volume down enough. And her friend was using my daughter's kid headset with dedicated audio input. But she couldn't turn hers down enough either. I almost pulled their receive plugs but I knew better in case there was an emergency. So I need to figure out a inline adapter or something? Ideas anyone??
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Just unplug their headsets. Honestly, if you really need to talk to them they’ll hear ya. It’s great to take your kids. Mine are older now but I still enjoy taking them up.
 
Busflyer said:
Just unplug their headsets. Honestly, if you really need to talk to them they’ll hear ya. It’s great to take your kids. Mine are older now but I still enjoy taking them up.
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My daughter knows how to plug in her headset but her friend didn't have a clue. I probably should have unplugged them. Way cheaper than a $3,238,234 Bluetooth adapter :)
 
All in all it sounds like a good learning experience and an enjoyable flight for all.

A couple of tips that I’ll suggest:

As for your payload and W&B (pax, cargo, etc.) always be on the conservative side, especially with fuel. If the book value says 8 gallons per hour, round to 10gph. Kid weighs 100lbs, budget 125lbs etc. Unless you’re really pushing max gross, I’m surprised shoes really made a difference (?) or maybe that was some sort of nuance.

When it comes to the passengers volume, you should have volume control on your audio panel. Control volume for the passengers there, rather than the little dials on the headsets.

Having passengers is A LOT of fun, but it comes with a A LOT of responsibility. Continue to build your confidence s l o w y.

Fly safe!
 
rk911 said:
shoes???
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These are daughter's and their moms packed. Water shoes, tennis shoes, heavy sole sandals and flip flops....each! I have this small roller bag. I never take more than can fit...and half the time its their stuff :mad:
 
Good for you, getting out there and learning what it's like to deal with all the little passenger issues. It's just one part of being a pilot. Not to be a nit picker, but MPLS is MSP.
 
I just took pax up for the first time this weekend too. I was pretty nervous. Of course I was confident in my skills, but you know the pax are critiquing all your moves in their determination if they'll ever fly with you again. Things went great though, so thankful for that.
 
Ryanb said:
All in all it sounds like a good learning experience and an enjoyable flight for all.

A couple of tips that I’ll suggest:

As for your payload and W&B (pax, cargo, etc.) always be on the conservative side, especially with fuel. If the book value says 8 gallons per hour, round to 10gph. Kid weighs 100lbs, budget 125lbs etc. Unless you’re really pushing max gross, I’m surprised shoes really made a difference (?) or maybe that was some sort of nuance.

When it comes to the passengers volume, you should have volume control on your audio panel. Control volume for the passengers there, rather than the little dials on the headsets.

Having passengers is A LOT of fun, but it comes with a A LOT of responsibility. Continue to build your confidence s l o w y.

Fly safe!
Click to expand...
Yeah I planned for 160lbs for both of them. Even that is weight behind me I am not used to! The one mom put two pairs of shoes...in a heavy backpack. And then put her lifejacket (was probably still wet) in another backpack. Then a huge duffle bag, completely full and this really heavy lap board writing thing. I give credit to my daughter, she normally keeps it to her small roller bag and then stuff what doesn't fit into mine! But we were also carrying one grocery bag full of heavy food (cans, fruit, etc). And medium sized cooler. I would guess in the end, counting a 30lb tote of tools and oil (I've weighed it) and ladder we were probably pushing 140lbs total back there.

I actually did have the audio turned down quite a bit but that meant mine was kinda cranked to be able to hear app/dep/center. Our audio panel isn't quite as advanced as the newer stuff where passengers can be adjusted/fed independently.

Thanks for the advice!
 
Sinistar said:
These are daughter's and their moms packed. Water shoes, tennis shoes, heavy sole sandals and flip flops....each! I have this small roller bag. I never take more than can fit...and half the time its their stuff :mad:
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water shoes??? sooo, mom was a fan of Gilligan's Island and packed accordingly for a 3-hr tour, huh? :)
 
ScottinIowa said:
I just took pax up for the first time this weekend too. I was pretty nervous. Of course I was confident in my skills, but you know the pax are critiquing all your moves in their determination if they'll ever fly with you again. Things went great though, so thankful for that.
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Do you also feel like your are learning again when you take up passengers?

I always ask for a critique afterwards. I am always mega worried what they will think about the landing!!!
 
champ driver said:
Good for you, getting out there and learning what it's like to deal with all the little passenger issues. It's just one part of being a pilot. Not to be a nit picker, but MPLS is MSP.
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My bad...duh!
 
rk911 said:
water shoes??? sooo, mom was a fan of Gilligan's Island and packed accordingly for a 3-hr tour, huh? :)
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Okay, I'm not making this up....they watched Gilligan's Island episodes on the flight up :)

My daughter has loved them since she was about 5yrs old. So we have every episode on a 6000mah battery pack which is also a wi-fi point with a SD card to serve audio and movies.
 
Glad you enjoyed your flight,it’s always fun to take kids up.
 
Sinistar said:
The one mom put two pairs of shoes...in a heavy backpack. And then put her lifejacket (was probably still wet) in another backpack. Then a huge duffle bag, completely full and this really heavy lap board writing thing.
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One thing you need to be well aware of is that you’re PIC, so there will be times when you will need to exercise those privileges and jurisdict what comes on board the airplane and what doesn’t. If the mother feels the need to pack the girls closet, than so be it, but it may not be flying with her. Most people don’t realize that little airplanes cannot carry anything and everything.

Never be a push over.

There was one time a couple of months ago where I took two babes for an airplane ride and I unfortunately had to turn the third babe away due to available useful load. It sucks...big time, but sometimes you have to do it. Luckily she let me make it up to her at a later point. :)
 
Sinistar said:
Okay, I'm not making this up....they watched Gilligan's Island episodes on the flight up :)

My daughter has loved them since she was about 5yrs old. So we have every episode on a 6000mah battery pack which is also a wi-fi point with a SD card to serve audio and movies.
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LMAO!
 
LoLPilot said:
That's a great story! Is it weird feeling to fly with passengers?
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First couple of times it is...

You get hit with a reality shock that says, ‘their lives are in my hands’. Then your training kicks in and you fly the airplane just like you did solo or with a CFI. Then you do it more and more and it just becomes old hat.
 
LoLPilot said:
That's a great story! Is it weird feeling to fly with passengers?
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Not all...but I'm only at six total so the vets will have to chime in.

I will say, so far having just one passenger (co-pilot) seat and local flying has been the most enjoyable. They can fly, we can take time and if we go away from the Bravo you can have peace and quiet and not worry about busting a altitude or heading order or missing a radio call to us. I took one passenger across the Bravo but did not feel comfortable letting him fly and we couldn't chat much as I was so worried about calls from app/dep/center. But he found the view especially memorable and said he'd love to go again.

The other nice thing about just one passenger is if they want to fly. Things can get a little wonky as they learn to fly such as sudden adjustments or overcorrections. And there isn't someone being yaw'd and G'd around in the back, starting to get sick well before the people up front.
 
eman1200 said:
so was it just you and the two kids?
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Yep. My wife (and pilot) was too busy to go. And the other kid's parents were celebrating their anniversary. Frankly, I was more worried about them out on the lake!
 
What model intercom do you have? I have a Garmin GMA 340 and the volume knobs on it only affect intercom volume, not radio volume. But the isolate button selects which isolation mode I want, one of which is Pilot and works like this: The pilot is completely isolated from the remaining intercom channels. He does not hear the passengers talk, they do not hear him talk, the pilot hears and talks on the radios, and the passengers do not hear the radios at all. Add Bluetooth or 1/8” audio input to the passenger headsets (or on the audio panel) and your passengers can use their headsets for everything including talking to each other, and tap you on the shoulder if they need to talk to you so you can turn off the isolation. And if you need to talk to them, you just turn off isolation and they will hear you. No need to get their attention or adjust volumes.
 
Sinistar said:
Yep. My wife (and pilot) was too busy to go. And the other kid's parents were celebrating their anniversary. Frankly, I was more worried about them out on the lake!
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ok, so I'll throw my $.02 in and ruin the party, although these are obviously my opinions only and meant with good intentions.....

I don't fly kids that aren't 100% self sufficient, meaning they can figure out how to lock/unlock a seatbelt on their own, plug in a headset on their own, etc.... I haven't done it, don't wanna do it. I feel like it might have been best to have someone (your wife, your girlfriend, just not both at the same time) who could focus on the kids while you fly. if this was your first time ever taking pax, although everything worked out great and sounds like u had a blast, I personally don't think it was a wise move. you're already nervous enough taking on pax of any kind, but these pax need your attention and that takes away from attention to flying.

anyways, I'm thrilled you had a great time and an uneventful flight, but if it was me making a recommendation to someone, I would say don't take on two dependent kids, alone, as your first pax.

I know, I know, eman can go suck it, there's lots of people who fly their kids all the time. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying I don't think it's wise as first pax with no help. ok flame away, bye.
 
Ryanb said:
There was one time a couple of months ago where I took two babes for an airplane ride and I unfortunately had to turn the third babe away due to available useful load. It sucks...big time, but sometimes you have to do it. Luckily she let me make it up to her at a later point. :)
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When I was younger I would have chumped out and made sure the hot one got in on the first ride...you were wise making the other one wait and wonder :cornut:
 
Sinistar said:
When I was younger I would have chumped out and made sure the hot one got in on the first ride...you were wise making the other one wait and wonder :cornut:
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Believe me, I made sure the hot one got in and sat upfront with me!

:cheers:
 
Congrats fellow Skylane’r!!!

After one flight with my kids, 7 & 9 yo, I got them bluedio headsets with ANC and let them do their own thing. They can just get louder and louder and louder, can be very distracting. I guess you were pretty aft CG?? I put Wife In the front and two kids in back with 2/3 fuel and went for a trip recently. I do a 10 degree flap on takeoff when I think I’m on the heavy sides which seems to get me off the ground a bit better and let it build a bit of speed and positive rate of climb then bring them in
 
eman1200 said:
ok, so I'll throw my $.02 in and ruin the party, although these are obviously my opinions only and meant with good intentions.....

I don't fly kids that aren't 100% self sufficient, meaning they can figure out how to lock/unlock a seatbelt on their own, plug in a headset on their own, etc.... I haven't done it, don't wanna do it. I feel like it might have been best to have someone (your wife, your girlfriend, just not both at the same time) who could focus on the kids while you fly. if this was your first time ever taking pax, although everything worked out great and sounds like u had a blast, I personally don't think it was a wise move. you're already nervous enough taking on pax of any kind, but these pax need your attention and that takes away from attention to flying.

anyways, I'm thrilled you had a great time and an uneventful flight, but if it was me making a recommendation to someone, I would say don't take on two dependent kids, alone, as your first pax.

I know, I know, eman can go suck it, there's lots of people who fly their kids all the time. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying I don't think it's wise as first pax with no help. ok flame away, bye.
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Good advice actually.

My daughter knows her way around the plane really good now with about 20 flights (more with mom than me). Her friend really understood the exit strategy, how the doors work and even commented "these seatbelts are just like big plane." She knew what to do if sick, etc. Had I had any doubt I would have pushed the plane back in and drove and was ready to do that.

However what stretched out that extra 30minutes were those questions and explanations. In hindsight I wish she would have done one local flight with my wife, my daughter and her mom. Then she would have had experience for this first GA, multi-day trip.

I also have to give them credit. I asked them to raise their mic booms up vertical and only a few times did my daughter tap me on the shoulder. The other one never talked on the intercom. They must have been shouting at each other back there as they managed to coordinate everything regarding their "TV and Movies session".
 
Sinistar said:
Do you also feel like your are learning again when you take up passengers?

I always ask for a critique afterwards. I am always mega worried what they will think about the landing!!!
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Absolutely. I tried to explain any move I made, like banking, climbing, reducing power or whatever. I forgot to explain crosswind landing procedures though and my wife thought my landing was garbage when I dipped the upwind wing down on short final. LOL
 
That's awesome that you guys have people who like flying! My family and friends mostly think I'm nuts. I think I enjoy flying by myself more than I would with passengers though. Minus my CFI. I love flying with him because he's an awesome dude to hang out with
 
iamtheari said:
What model intercom do you have? I have a Garmin GMA 340 and the volume knobs on it only affect intercom volume, not radio volume. But the isolate button selects which isolation mode I want, one of which is Pilot and works like this: The pilot is completely isolated from the remaining intercom channels. He does not hear the passengers talk, they do not hear him talk, the pilot hears and talks on the radios, and the passengers do not hear the radios at all. Add Bluetooth or 1/8” audio input to the passenger headsets (or on the audio panel) and your passengers can use their headsets for everything including talking to each other, and tap you on the shoulder if they need to talk to you so you can turn off the isolation. And if you need to talk to them, you just turn off isolation and they will hear you. No need to get their attention or adjust volumes.
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Its a much older one KMA-24H (I think a lot of them were used in helicopters). I can adjust the intercom volume separately from the radios. And there is a master cutoff switch but it completely cuts off everyone from me. And when they are cut off they can not talk to each other either.

I would love to have new audio panel where they could feed in the audio they want and I could fee in alerts from the tablet so that I could hear them along with the intercom and radio.

I was just wondering if there was a not-too-expensive inline adapter that I could plug the headset into and then into the plane's audio jack so they could listen to audio via BT and also attenuate the intercom down on the inline adapter so it could lower than what the headset volume know does. Keep in mind the passengers are using old DC's. I have my QT Halo's in up front and they're not getting them. However you can adjust the volume on each ear independently and feed in audio if you like. So something like that would be ideal but not ready to drop $$$$ for rear headsets quite yet.
 
Ryanb said:
There was one time a couple of months ago where I took two babes for an airplane ride and I unfortunately had to turn the third babe away due to available useful load. It sucks...big time, but sometimes you have to do it. Luckily she let me make it up to her at a later point. :)
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This thread is useless without pics
 
Some other food for thought. Prior to taking my wife and kids up for the first time. I did take them up to the hangar. Loaded all of us into the plane and do a “mock run”. I let them ask about every button, gauge, knob, you name it. Walked around plane and let them ask any question they wanted. We were in for over 30 min just sitting there. Took some pics so they could look at stuff and ask more questions. 1st flight though was the maniacal loud yelling for fun into the headsets!!

Earlier this week was their third flight and I don’t think they could have been more bored!!!
 
Ryanb said:
There was one time a couple of months ago where I took two babes for an airplane ride and I unfortunately had to turn the third babe away due to available useful load. It sucks...big time, but sometimes you have to do it. Luckily she let me make it up to her at a later point. :)
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:needpics:

Yeah gonna need pics of all that, but esp the bolded. Video would be best.
 
I suggest you consider joining EAA and doing some Young Eagles flights. Lots of fun and a good way to give back.
 
My wife has been doing EAA Young Eagles flights for 15yrs. I made the decision not to for at least one year, maybe 2. I need more passenger experience before I try that. Right now I get to pick the passengers and I am comfortable with that. I think a eagles flight day would be a bit too unplanned for me. I am however going to assist her with the next one.

Ironically, what I would really like to do is introduce a more select, smaller group to flying. For example get out the word to High School math, science teachers, etc. Then talk with their parents. The parent would have to be with. Then do 2-3 flights, where they get to fly each time.

At the start of one flight I think I could arrange a visit to the Reserve Bank...oops I meant avionics shop :) Next flight to a FBO that works on jets so they could see the mechanical side. Have them see a GA friendly FBO so they can see training, front desk jobs, line workers, etc. Finally a trip to the tower.

For the girls, my wife would be a fantastic role model so maybe better if she flew those.

Overall maybe focus on 2-4 per year and try find those that are really serious vs just curious. I would not pretend to instruct, just awareness. Then hand them the CFI'S card.

Has anyone ever done this? Maybe a waiver should be drawn up.
 
Sinistar said:
Okay, I'm not making this up....they watched Gilligan's Island episodes on the flight up :)

My daughter has loved them since she was about 5yrs old. So we have every episode on a 6000mah battery pack which is also a wi-fi point with a SD card to serve audio and movies.
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o_O:confused: They watched television episodes? They don't find the changing scene from the airplane interesting?
 
Busflyer said:
Just unplug their headsets. Honestly, if you really need to talk to them they’ll hear ya. It’s great to take your kids. Mine are older now but I still enjoy taking them up.
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As a kid flying with my dad, he never used headsets at all. I don think he owned a headset. Radio was on the speaker and hand held mic. We talked when it wasn't TO, landing, or having to hear the comm. I learned pretty quickly that "quiet!" Or shut up could come at any time. I think it was the norm back then, sixties.

The suggestion to be "conservative" in weight estimates, I can see it with fuel consumption. But for W&B isn't that problematic? I think (not sure) it is worse to be tail heavy but over estimating that might make you nose heavy would not be good either or is it not that critical, since even over estimates won't be that much over?
 
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Well you would think looking out window for 70...90 minutes would be fascinating...i know i cant stop looking!

But then again they're 10yrs old and their norm is a Delta flight with snacks and entertainment...and a bathroom! When they watch a show they then associate it with what they like about commercial travel. Plus one other major advantage...they are busy. And busy is good as it keeps young minds off of thoughts of being queasy or needing a potty stop. I think as she gets older and more comfortable with light chop and longer legs she will look out the window or sleep or fly :) Right now she cant see over the panel or reach the pedals. She could in the Chief and still misses it.

Id be curious how many 10yr olds riding backseat in a GA single look out the window for entire flights, especially if theyve got a few trips under their belt.
 
champ driver said:
Good for you, getting out there and learning what it's like to deal with all the little passenger issues. It's just one part of being a pilot. Not to be a nit picker, but MPLS is MSP.
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If you REALLY wanna be a nit picker, MSP is just one airport (or a VOR if you wanna be REALLY technical). He was talking about Minneapolis Center, which is ZMP.
 
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