First time owner need autopilot

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BobV

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BobV
As a new first time owner (9 mo.) and the owner of a PA28-236 Dakota, I thought the new G5's and GFC 500 would be a good first addition to improve on the aircraft. I'm learning that Garmin may not support the GFC 500 in a PA28-236 Dakota (per Garmin letter) and is currently not part of the STC program for 2018, which is very disappointing - based on Sarasota Avionics identified aircraft.
Based on having a single axis (needing work) autopilot, what would you all recommend be the next alternative as I've ruled out Trio and not sure about TruTrack at this point.

Thanks much,
Bob
 
Send an email to Garmin to confirm. They are working on pa-28-181, that I know

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WannFly said:
Send an email to Garmin to confirm. They are working on pa-28-181, that I know

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Thanks WannFly -- yep - that's who sent me the info originally advising the Dakota was not on the list -- only the 181's
 
BobV said:
Thanks WannFly -- yep - that's who sent me the info originally advising the Dakota was not on the list -- only the 181's
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:(
have you explored Trio or TruTrack?
 
If not Trio, TruTrak or Garmin then about the only one left is STEC at some truely eye-popping prices. They do make nice gear but I've never been a fan of their business policies(serialized STC, basically paying the new cost to recertify used gear). I guess Century is still in the game but not sure I'd do that, unless your existing AP is a century, then it might be worth it to just add another axis.
 
chartbundle said:
If not Trio, TruTrak or Garmin then about the only one left is STEC at some truely eye-popping prices. They do make nice gear but I've never been a fan of their business policies(serialized STC, basically paying the new cost to recertify used gear). I guess Century is still in the game but not sure I'd do that, unless your existing AP is a century, then it might be worth it to just add another axis.
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Century prices are outrageous. If they are still in business, definitely not for long. I have a century 2000, it's a piece of crap

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WannFly said:
Century prices are outrageous. If they are still in business, definitely not for long. I have a century 2000, it's a piece of crap
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I have a King... I'm looking forward to the day I can rip it out and put in something else and sell it for parts to anyone else who has to keep their King alive just a little longer until they can replace it with something else.
 
Get the current autopilot repaired as cheaply as possible and wait until one of the new, modern autopilots is certified for your airplane. Autopilot's Central is a place to start. STec pricing will make you cry.
 
I just put in an STEC 30 + alt. This was right before TruTrak or whatever got their approval and about 10 mos before the GFC came out. Lot of people told me to wait.

I'm glad I didn't. I flew all last summer with the AP and, as I sit here, I will never own a plane w/o one again.

It was very, very expensive, esp I guess considering it's analog, but it works perfectly fine. No idea how digital is better.

You do get the proven track record and parts availability. Thing has been around for what, 20 years? It's like buying a 172. Everyone can maintain them, parts are available.
 
I get the impression Garmin is targeting mostly flight training schools with the GFC 500 and it's meager list of approved or under certification airframes.

Garmin says the S & V Series 35 Bonanzas are in the works, and they might get around to the 33s some year. We will see I suppose.

If you have a 36 Bonanza or a B55 Baron you have to ante up for the considerably more expensive GFC 600.
 
All good info -- I'm getting pricing to see if they can help with the current unit (Century 1) -- can't rely on it as it seems to always fly to the right of course and has been adjusted more than once. --
You're correct with regard to the high cost of these units -- maybe a new year will see upcoming projects that will fit the bill. --
 
WannFly said:
Century prices are outrageous. If they are still in business, definitely not for long. I have a century 2000, it's a piece of crap

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What problems are you having with your 2000?
 
Scott@KTYR said:
What problems are you having with your 2000?
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Sometimes it follows the Nav, sometimes it just goes wherever the hell it wants too. To make it work reliably, I have to use the heading mode only, and hence my excitement for G5 and GAD29B that will provide GPSS and the heading more works. Alt hold works most of the times, every now and then, it starts porpoising in the air for no reason that I can find.

On a separate note, I asked my avionics guy about GFC 500 and he estimates 25 hrs per servo as a minimum ...and whatever time it takes to wire things up in the panel

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TruTrak 2-axis $5000 + 20 hrs. Install. Approval for PA28 is less than a month away per TruTrak. They are currently taking pre-orders.
 
My friend with a 177B just scheduled a TruTrak. I can't wait to try it.
 
Morgan3820 said:
TruTrak 2-axis $5000 + 20 hrs. Install. Approval for PA28 is less than a month away per TruTrak. They are currently taking pre-orders.
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about that 20 hr install ... so far the lowest quote I got was 25 hr per servo (GFC 500 AP though)
 
The servos go under the back seat. The roll servo mounts in the same place as the old Century servo. This saves a lot of time. Installation instructions for the PA 28 can be found on the TruTrak website. Unlike the Garmin unit any AP can install the TruTrak. I am not affiliated with TruTrak in anyway. I just think they came up with a great solution to a big problem. The Piper Forum is currently running a tread with a lot of info on this topic
 
Morgan3820 said:
The servos go under the back seat. The roll servo mounts in the same place as the old Century servo. This saves a lot of time. Installation instructions for the PA 28 can be found on the TruTrak website. Unlike the Garmin unit any AP can install the TruTrak. I am not affiliated with TruTrak in anyway. I just think they came up with a great solution to a big problem. The Piper Forum is currently running a tread with a lot of info on this topic
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Thanks, I will take a look. The Garmin servo s i would imagine sit in the same place as well. Wonder why they are estimating about 100 hrs for 2 servo and pitch trim GFC 500

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I have had the stec 30 +alt in two aircraft. Great units but pricey, ne t aircraft will probably look into the tru track. Save a few bucks.
 
WannFly said:
about that 20 hr install ... so far the lowest quote I got was 25 hr per servo (GFC 500 AP though)
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Find another shop. Its been reported several different times a Trutrak is really only about 20 hour job for two servos.
 
I don't know where the Garmin servos mount, but I suspect not under the seat. The STC Group is putting the Trio servos in the wing and in the tail -- the installation is way more involved than the TruTrak. I suspect the Garmin may be similar. I believe TruTrak's STC will cover all PA28 and PA32 models, but the STC Group's STC is different for the hershey bar versus taper wing Cherokees. I suspect Garmin has the same issue, an that is probably why they only have a subset of PA28s on there STC list. Unfortunately the Arrow isn't on Garmin's list.

The TruTrak servo installation is an excellent design. As already mentioned, the roll servo goes in the same spot that the Century roll servo goes, so if you have an old Century roll servo, you can use the existing mounting holes and match-drill the TruTrak bracket. The pitch servo is placed in such a way that the bellcrank for the pitch control is supported by the roll servo bracket and the pitch servo bracket. It's a very elegant design. I can't wait until the approval comes through.
 
Thanks to all of you for your input -- quite interesting reading especially for a new Dakota owner.
I finally received another memo from Garmin's sales/marketing manager after asking for specifics about the PA28 series aircraft and the GFC500 autopilot and per his memo, it looks like there's no future plans past the PA28-181 series aircraft ex: -200R, -235's or -236's at least not for another year or beyond.
So I've decided to move forward with upgrading with two G5's (my AI and DG are on their last legs) - just received a quote from avionics shop with good pricing for the hardware but over $5200 to install -- does that sound right to you guys ?
I sent him a note back asking if that was due to pre-wiring for a new autopilot and I'm waiting to hear. He runs a very good shop here at about $100/hr so I'm looking at around 52 hours to install two G5's ?
Thanks,
Bob
 
BobV said:
Thanks to all of you for your input -- quite interesting reading especially for a new Dakota owner.
I finally received another memo from Garmin's sales/marketing manager after asking for specifics about the PA28 series aircraft and the GFC500 autopilot and per his memo, it looks like there's no future plans past the PA28-181 series aircraft ex: -200R, -235's or -236's at least not for another year or beyond.
So I've decided to move forward with upgrading with two G5's (my AI and DG are on their last legs) - just received a quote from avionics shop with good pricing for the hardware but over $5200 to install -- does that sound right to you guys ?
I sent him a note back asking if that was due to pre-wiring for a new autopilot and I'm waiting to hear. He runs a very good shop here at about $100/hr so I'm looking at around 52 hours to install two G5's ?
Thanks,
Bob
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Not enough information,

52 doesn't sound too bad if:

Dual G5s with GAD29 (hooked to a GPS), and GMU-11

AND

Removing the vacuum system.

If the pitot static system haven't been leak checked recently I would expect it to leak out of tolerances.

IDK how you're supposed to pre-wire for an autopilot if you don't know where the servos will be. That's a non-starter.
 
My quote was 35 hrs or so, flat, they have spent way more time on that already and it's still not done. Not removing vac system though

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BobV said:
Thanks to all of you for your input -- quite interesting reading especially for a new Dakota owner.
I finally received another memo from Garmin's sales/marketing manager after asking for specifics about the PA28 series aircraft and the GFC500 autopilot and per his memo, it looks like there's no future plans past the PA28-181 series aircraft ex: -200R, -235's or -236's at least not for another year or beyond.
So I've decided to move forward with upgrading with two G5's (my AI and DG are on their last legs) - just received a quote from avionics shop with good pricing for the hardware but over $5200 to install -- does that sound right to you guys ?
I sent him a note back asking if that was due to pre-wiring for a new autopilot and I'm waiting to hear. He runs a very good shop here at about $100/hr so I'm looking at around 52 hours to install two G5's ?
Thanks,
Bob
Click to expand...

Just for a reference a friend of mine who is an avionics tech installed two G5s and a 430W navigator in his well used personal Cessna 172 two weekends ago.
He said it took him 32 hours, NOT INCLUDING removing the old radios and stripping out/re-installing the seats and other interior bits.
 
GRG55 said:
Just for a reference a friend of mine who is an avionics tech installed two G5s and a 430W navigator in his well used personal Cessna 172 two weekends ago.
He said it took him 32 hours, NOT INCLUDING removing the old radios and stripping out/re-installing the seats and other interior bits.
Click to expand...

So it didn't take 32 hours then.
 
bnt83 said:
So it didn't take 32 hours then.
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Exactly. He didn't track the other time as he did it in bits and pieces when he had time during the week before and after the weekend marathon.
 
Interesting responses ---
Sounds like it's all over the map when it comes to the labor part.
On my quote it doesn't show anything about removing the vac system or any other tests.
You all gave me info as to check into this a bit further - can't thank you enough !!
 
BobV said:
Interesting responses ---
Sounds like it's all over the map when it comes to the labor part.
On my quote it doesn't show anything about removing the vac system or any other tests.
You all gave me info as to check into this a bit further - can't thank you enough !!
Click to expand...

More autopilot -- I'm a bit of a Garmin fanboy but the more I look at Trutrak the more I think its fine for my airplane and maybe the GFC-500 isn't worth the extra money. If you installed the GFC-500 without the optional pitch trim to save some money, then you end up with a two servo system without autotrim like the Trutrak. The human interfaces are different but the capabilities are similar.

Today the Trutrak cannot do any autotrim, no yaw servo, and cannot track a heading. There are no heading system interfaces...yet. The thing does operate similar to a heading bug where you can dial in a track with a rotoray knob just like you would do with a heading bug on a DG hooked to an autopilot. Today the trutrak also cannot track VHF navaids. You and your mechanic can buy the Trutrak over the counter and install it yourselves. Trutrak seems to follow simpler installation meathods by connecting servos directly to existing bolts in bellcranks via a pushrod.

Today the GFC500 cannot be hooked to more than one navigation radio, (nor can the trutrak). It can do optional autotrim. Per Garmin rumor there may be optional yaw servo for selected aircraft. It can track magnetic heading set on the G5 display. Can only be installed by a Garmin dealer. Garmin servos all appear to be a bit more complex installation using additional control cables and cable drums (capstan) on the servos.

Both are so new there aren't many makes & models approved for them.

If I buy the Trutrak I'd still probably install dual G5s.
 
You should be able to swap that piper auto control original you have in there now with a piper auto control 3b and get gpss steering. It isn’t perfect gods steering but it will fly the plane straight down a magneta line


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I added GPSS steering last year and it does a fair job -- not great, but ok as the autopilot itself is long in the tooth (sorta speak). Could just add an altitude hold unit for now ex: Stec-30alt but I think it's throwing money away when the objective is to get a replacement unit.
I'm with bnt83 -- I too believe the TruTrak is a nice option but I'd like to have the additional features as autotrim, additional radio etc. -- such a shame that Garmin left out so many PA28's in their STC and unwilling to move forward with additional models per their note sent to me earlier.
May look at Genisis 3100 as an option and bite the bullet on costs -- I'm using the cost of the product and multiplying it by 2 to include labor as that seems to be a general consensus out here in CA. Pretty steep costs regardless and may not be worth it in the long run.
 
BobV said:
Thanks to all of you for your input -- quite interesting reading especially for a new Dakota owner.
I finally received another memo from Garmin's sales/marketing manager after asking for specifics about the PA28 series aircraft and the GFC500 autopilot and per his memo, it looks like there's no future plans past the PA28-181 series aircraft ex: -200R, -235's or -236's at least not for another year or beyond.
So I've decided to move forward with upgrading with two G5's (my AI and DG are on their last legs) - just received a quote from avionics shop with good pricing for the hardware but over $5200 to install -- does that sound right to you guys ?
I sent him a note back asking if that was due to pre-wiring for a new autopilot and I'm waiting to hear. He runs a very good shop here at about $100/hr so I'm looking at around 52 hours to install two G5's ?
Thanks,
Bob
Click to expand...

You may find that just changing to the G5 with GADxxx would eliminate a lot of your autopilot unreliability. I had issues with my Autocontrol 3B that were eliminated by changing the connectors earlier, but most importantly the addition of my Aspen to utilize its HSI with the associated GPSS made all the difference. It is reliable now even though the autopilot is 38 years old whether in heading mode or tracking the GPS.
 
Last edited:
TheGolfPilot said:
You should be able to swap that piper auto control original you have in there now with a piper auto control 3b and get gpss steering. It isn’t perfect gods steering but it will fly the plane straight down a magneta line


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If one could actually swap it out with a used unit on a trial connected to a G5 HSI, that would be great to see what you've got. But you would need and Attitude reporting AI to go along with it to make it function properly.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
If one could actually swap it out with a used unit on a trial connected to a G5 HSI, that would be great to see what you've got. But you would need and Attitude reporting AI to go along with it to make it function properly.
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The G5 has all the AHRS stuff you need. My archer had and older auto control unit and simply swapping to the 3B and changing a couple settings in the G5 gave usable gpss steering.


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TheGolfPilot said:
The G5 has all the AHRS stuff you need. My archer had and older auto control unit and simply swapping to the 3B and changing a couple settings in the G5 gave usable gpss steering.


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Your AI must have been capable of sending attitude data to the autopilot, or it would not have worked from the G5 alone.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
Your AI must have been capable of sending attitude data to the autopilot, or it would not have worked from the G5 alone.
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I have two of them and they are connected to a GTN750 maybe the GTN750’s WAAS receiver gives it that info. I can turn the master switch off and the G5 attitude airspeed and heading will continue to work for 3+ hours. It is my understanding that I could have had the entire pitot and vacuum system removed with 0 functionality loss. (Although may not be approved via stc, I don’t know)


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TheGolfPilot said:
I have two of them and they are connected to a GTN750 maybe the GTN750’s WAAS receiver gives it that info. I can turn the master switch off and the G5 attitude airspeed and heading will continue to work for 3+ hours. It is my understanding that I could have had the entire pitot and vacuum system removed with 0 functionality loss. (Although may not be approved via stc, I don’t know)


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about that... i saw in the configuration that internal GPS is disabled (or should be per STC) if thats the case, where are you getting the airspeed information from (pitot-static off, external GPS off)? what u mentioned is my understanding too, but i dont see that happening if the internal GPS is disabled
 
I am enjoying following this thread. Anyone have any suggestions for a Centurion 210K? Currently have a Century One and as others have commented sometimes works ok, and then occasionally seems to take a course 10 or so degrees off until on a cross track error of about 2 to 4 miles. I usually turn it off before then so don’t know what it would do after that. Certainly not something I will trust during a flight in actual IFR! Is or will the TruTrak or new Garmin be available for non strut 210’s?
 
WannFly said:
about that... i saw in the configuration that internal GPS is disabled (or should be per STC) if thats the case, where are you getting the airspeed information from (pitot-static off, external GPS off)? what u mentioned is my understanding too, but i dont see that happening if the internal GPS is disabled
Click to expand...

Great question. I’ll take a look early next week and try to figure it out. I’m going to guess it is in the manual somewhere


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