First time builder....Cozy!

D

deftone

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Display Name
Display name:
deftone
After much (oh god sooo much) deliberation I finally settled on the Cozy Mk IV. I have a pretty simple mission, me+SHMBO+bags. Good speed and long range. My "mission within the mission" is that I want to visit all MLB ball parks in one season!

I have never worked with composites before, however I have spent my whole career in Engineering, so I think I will be capable of pulling it off. I do plan to keep to a reasonably tight budget, by this I dont mean cutting corners, simply that I dont intend to fit a fancy $50k avionics package or $30k paint scheme..you get the idea.

Most of the construction will take place in my 2 car garage at home now that my project car has been completed (1969 Fiat spider for those who are interested). I assume that when it comes to fitting wings etc I will have to move to a hanger as I guess it will be too wide to be transported by trailer at that point? Perhaps someone could advise?

I have several EAA chapters nearby, I joined the biggest....EAA chapter 12-Houston, and found one of the members has already completed a Cozy, so I hope he will be a great source of information!

One reason that I decided to go homebuilt rather than the Mooneys I was looking at, is that I have a large amount of spare time. I work a 28day on, 28day off rotation, with very little time commitments in this 28day off period. It would be my intention to get as many hours in as possible (assuming the bank balance allows for this). What would be REALLY great (and pretty unrealistic) would be flying it to OSH '15, as the last few years I have driven...and driving from Houston is a drag!!

I signed up for the mailing lists and the canardzone forum. Seems to be a great deal of information out there. I was considering printing it all out and making up folders to put on my garage shelf for referencing, but now Im not sure if the shelving will hold so much weight in paper!

I have also registered for the EAA composite class in Houston on Dec 6-7. The timing is very fortunate for me and I expect it will be $350 well invested!

Regarding buying materials...I see that Aircraft Spruce sells the materials by chapter, but seems confusing...for example it lists the Ch3 kit at around 550, but when added to cart it jumps up to over 700, its not tax, so Im not sure if its just an old price on the site. I was also shocked by the shipping costs. Nearly $200 for the cheapest shipping of Ch3 materials to Texas??

I seen on some other builders sites that Wicks sold similar "chapter" material kits, but they dont appear to be on their site now, did they stop this?

Aside from Spruce and Wicks, are there any other suppliers I should be checking out?
 
My recomendation is to do something on it every day, even if you worked. If you are not home, read and plan for when you are home. Staying motivated will happen partialy from staying involved everyday. Make it so that if you miss a day involved in building your baby you feel incomplete. That will make it likely to complete your Cozy. Might also make you a repeat offender when you complete it! It can be addictive for some of us.
 
I would figure 3-4 years minimum from the time you start to the time you do your first test flight. I think you will spend another 6 months tweaking things and flying off the 40 hours. I built a Velocity back in 1994 and spent 2x what I could have bought one done and ready.
 
Look at projects others have started as well. Look and see what they did and didn't do and why they got stuck. Composites aren't particularly difficult, but there are tips, tricks, and techniques that if you don't know them, you can waste a lot of time and material. You may also find yourself a really well done partially completed plane that will save a lot of time and money on your part. While on a 28on/28off hitch you could theoretically have one done scratch by OSH '15, you would have to be a savant at aircraft building. You can likely find a partial that will make OSH '15 a reasonable effort to make, you might be shy paint.

If you want the plane for long range traveling, don't skimp no the panel. There's lots of good stuff available at reasonable prices, but the radio/Nav box is still not going to be cheap, and cheaping out costs you what can save your ass when you need it most. There will likely be 3-4 decent options when it comes time for you to put one in.
 
deftone said:
I have never worked with composites before, however I have spent my whole career in Engineering, so I think I will be capable of pulling it off....
Click to expand...
Be aware of epoxy sensitivity - it's a cumulative thing so skin protection, filters, etc, can mean the difference between developing an epoxy allergy and finishing an airplane. Most any moldless composite guy can tell you about an acquaitnance that has had to give up glasswork due to an acquired sensitivity.


deftone said:
Regarding buying materials...I see that Aircraft Spruce sells the materials by chapter, but seems confusing...for example it lists the Ch3 kit at around 550, but when added to cart it jumps up to over 700, its not tax, so Im not sure if its just an old price on the site. I was also shocked by the shipping costs. Nearly $200 for the cheapest shipping of Ch3 materials to Texas??
Click to expand...
Could you be seeing a HAZMAT shipping charge for resin or other something?

deftone said:
I seen on some other builders sites that Wicks sold similar "chapter" material kits, but they dont appear to be on their site now, did they stop this?

Aside from Spruce and Wicks, are there any other suppliers I should be checking out?
Click to expand...
Dunno if Wicks stopped bundling stuff but I bet a call to them would get you an answer. I always found them really helpful. Wicks and Spruce are probably your best bet for Cozy-specifics but I've found a couple of custom boat builders who can usually beat their prices for glass and resin *if they have matching stuff*.

Nauga,
glassy-eyed
 
One thing about resin allergy, if you develop it, you won't be flying that plane anymore. The stuff will leech vapor it's whole life causing reaction whenever you're in it. :(
 
Henning said:
While on a 28on/28off hitch you could theoretically have one done scratch by OSH '15, you would have to be a savant at aircraft building. You can likely find a partial that will make OSH '15 a reasonable effort to make, you might be shy paint.
Click to expand...

I certainly dont think Im going to be a savant at aircraft building:D

I know that there is basically a zero chance of getting to OSH '15. BUT if I set that as my goal it encourages me to get off my ass every day and put in a days hard graft. Setting a goal of say... OSH '17 wont give me the same sense of wasted time should I take a day off.

It works for me....YMMV:lol:
 
deftone said:
I certainly dont think Im going to be a savant at aircraft building:D

I know that there is basically a zero chance of getting to OSH '15. BUT if I set that as my goal it encourages me to get off my ass every day and put in a days hard graft. Setting a goal of say... OSH '17 wont give me the same sense of wasted time should I take a day off.

It works for me....YMMV:lol:
Click to expand...

Still look at all the partial kits for sale in your area, lot you can learn that way.
 
nauga said:
Be aware of epoxy sensitivity - it's a cumulative thing so skin protection, filters, etc, can mean the difference between developing an epoxy allergy and finishing an airplane. Most any moldless composite guy can tell you about an acquaitnance that has had to give up glasswork due to an acquired sensitivity.


Could you be seeing a HAZMAT shipping charge for resin or other something?
Click to expand...

The epoxy sensitivity is something that I have read about in my research and does concern me a little. I plan to go overkill on the PPE to keep things safe:yes:

I never thought of the HAZMAT aspect...I will give them a call to find out. I imagine I can get such materials locally here in Houston and save on the shipping charge.
 
Henning said:
Still look at all the partial kits for sale in your area, lot you can learn that way.
Click to expand...

Im looking in all the usual places right at this very minute:yes: Barnstormers etc.

I also came across someone in my local EAA chapter who ran out of steam on his Cozy project 5 years ago, will be giving him a call to see if he would be interested in letting it go.
 
As for epoxy sensitivity I hear it is more likely the fairer skinned you are, gingers get it quick. Look into the process as well, I've heard it is sanding fiberglass, then more sanding, then more sanding, then you put down more fiberglass so you have more to sand... Give me metal, or wood, anything but sanding fiberglass...
 
deftone said:
Im looking in all the usual places right at this very minute:yes: Barnstormers etc.

I also came across someone in my local EAA chapter who ran out of steam on his Cozy project 5 years ago, will be giving him a call to see if he would be interested in letting it go.
Click to expand...
I shudder at the thought of inspecting a stranger's layups. Heck, I shudder at the thought of inspecting some of my own layups.

Nauga,
and his $0.25 percussive acoustic layup test tool
 
ClimbnSink said:
As for epoxy sensitivity I hear it is more likely the fairer skinned you are, gingers get it quick. Look into the process as well, I've heard it is sanding fiberglass, then more sanding, then more sanding, then you put down more fiberglass so you have more to sand... Give me metal, or wood, anything but sanding fiberglass...
Click to expand...

As a builder of a Glasair III A! I can attest to the sanding thing....but look at the finished product! Only one way, and one material to get that.
 
Todd Copeland said:
As a builder of a Glasair III A! I can attest to the sanding thing....but look at the finished product! Only one way, and one material to get that.
Click to expand...
My favorite flying machines are composites, just no way I could ever build one.
 
nauga said:
I shudder at the thought of inspecting a stranger's layups. Heck, I shudder at the thought of inspecting some of my own layups.

Nauga,
and his $0.25 percussive acoustic layup test tool
Click to expand...

It's actualy pretty easy to assess a builders composite work. After just a few minutes you will have a good handle on the quality of there work. If the work you see is high qaulity you really don't have to dig into every corner and hard to see spot as you will know how diligent the builder is about qaulity control. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a project as long as I felt the work was good and it wouldn't be hard to tell that it is good work. If you can't tell the difference, it's a good idea to look at many projects to get an understanding of the differences builders produce in qaulity. Get someone you trust who knows what they are looking at to go with you. The only problem in that scenario is that when you see bad work, usually the builder is right there and you don't want to insult them pointing to bad work. You can however learn a lot this way and you will be able to identify what you want to acheive with your work.
 
It sounds to me that you want to fly. Again, I would suggest that you go "help" someone that is building a composite plane (especially if they are filling and sanding.) You might just find that you do not want to build.

As you build, you will find that every week you are ordering another few hundred $ worth of stuff you did not expect. Take you estimate and double it and take your time estimate and triple it. I appears that you can buy a decent finished and flying Cozy for $25-35k. That is the way to go.
 
To add to this, I would suggest buying a $25k Cozy and instead of building, rip out the current panel and install a single GTN650 along with a single G3X Touch with built in autopilot and engine monitor. If you are truly planning to hit all of the MLB stadiums in one year you will be flying alot of IMC and will be flying over rough terrain as well. A good autopilot to help you and an engine monitor are really needed. You also get the benefit of SVT to help you avoid obstacles and terrain. You will probably spend about $20k on the panel, so maybe $45k invested in a really nice IFR capable SAFE traveling machine. I would not go cheap on a panel that you will rely on to keep you and your wife safe when traveling around the entire country IFR.
 
toddsanderson said:
To add to this, I would suggest buying a $25k Cozy and instead of building, rip out the current panel and install a single GTN650 along with a single G3X Touch with built in autopilot and engine monitor. If you are truly planning to hit all of the MLB stadiums in one year you will be flying alot of IMC and will be flying over rough terrain as well. A good autopilot to help you and an engine monitor are really needed. You also get the benefit of SVT to help you avoid obstacles and terrain. You will probably spend about $20k on the panel, so maybe $45k invested in a really nice IFR capable SAFE traveling machine. I would not go cheap on a panel that you will rely on to keep you and your wife safe when traveling around the entire country IFR.
Click to expand...

The only change I would make in that is go for the 750. The GTN 750 next to the G-300x with SVT makes a really nice IFR panel. I used both the 650 and the 750 the other day in a stack, the 750 is so much easier to use and view, much bigger screen. The G-300x is also the smallest PFD I would want, 10.4" is even better.

The thing about glass is you get a lot of information, so much information is available that clutter is the limiting factor, that's why we need menus of options. The bigger the display, the more information a given 'page' can hold before you start running into clutter saturation and adding menus to access information.
 
Price difference for the 750 over the 650 is $4k. The G3X touch screen in the 10.4" size is more than adequate for PFD and the engine monitor.
 
toddsanderson said:
Price difference for the 750 over the 650 is $4k. The G3X touch screen in the 10.4" size is more than adequate for PFD and the engine monitor.
Click to expand...

$4k is a rounding error in the costs of plane ownership. It won't seem like a good savings when you have it for 10 years and keep going "damnit, I should have gotten the bigger screen." Avionics is a major long term investment in functionality that is very expensive to change your mind on once completed.
 
$4k is 10% of a Cozy and provides nothing but a bigger screen that is not needed IMO because all the data is right in front of you on the 10.4" screen. You want your traffic and weather displayed on your PFD. THe only thing you need the 650/750 for is entering flight plan information which is maybe 10% quicker with the 750.

Anyway, I actually took out my large screen 530W and 430W and will only have a single 650 since I will have 2 10.4" screens. I just did not see the need for another screen that I will not use. The $4k saved will buy my gas for a year.
 
Lots of great advice already!

When I said I wasnt going to go crazy on the panel...I didnt mean I was also going to cut corners. I fully expect to spend in the region of $15-20k on a decent panel. I have the mindset of "do it right the first time". I would hate to get it finished then want to make changes within a few months.

I have spent the last few days at work trawling through every Cozy (and similar) builders log that I can find. I have to admit, I am getting REALLY tempted to go rotary with the powerplant. John Slade's excellent build report really helped push me in this direction.
 
deftone said:
Lots of great advice already!

When I said I wasnt going to go crazy on the panel...I didnt mean I was also going to cut corners. I fully expect to spend in the region of $15-20k on a decent panel. I have the mindset of "do it right the first time". I would hate to get it finished then want to make changes within a few months.

I have spent the last few days at work trawling through every Cozy (and similar) builders log that I can find. I have to admit, I am getting REALLY tempted to go rotary with the powerplant. John Slade's excellent build report really helped push me in this direction.
Click to expand...

Don't do it. Stick with Lycoming. Car engines make for terrible airplane engines. You will be no more efficient with a rotary and will have more engineering and down time. Look at what Velocity, Vans, Glasair, and Lancair recommend. Look at all the car engine planes and what happens to them - they all go back to Lycoming or Continental after they spend years trying to make a car engine work. You can put electronic ignition on a Lycoming and it will run as smooth as silk sipping fuel LOP if you like.
 
deftone said:
Lots of great advice already!

When I said I wasnt going to go crazy on the panel...I didnt mean I was also going to cut corners. I fully expect to spend in the region of $15-20k on a decent panel. I have the mindset of "do it right the first time". I would hate to get it finished then want to make changes within a few months.

I have spent the last few days at work trawling through every Cozy (and similar) builders log that I can find. I have to admit, I am getting REALLY tempted to go rotary with the powerplant. John Slade's excellent build report really helped push me in this direction.
Click to expand...

If you want to tinker and experiment with power plants, and have the money and time to spare, the rotary is an interesting option, especially if you make it run on Diesel. If you actually want to get flying, stick with a known aviation power plant. You will save nothing converting an auto plant.
 
I am a long time homebuilder and have built two airplanes, a RV7 and a Backcountry Super Cub. I have also helped on numerous other projects, Glasstar, Lancair 360, Zenith 750, RV 6,7,8 and 12, Kitfox and a few others. I have also flown over 25 types of experimentals so I have the experience to give you some advice.
First is the Cozy what you really want and have you really researched it thoroughly. My friend just finished a Cozy and the cockpit is pretty tight and kind of hard to get in and out of. Canards do have some drawbacks one being they need a lot of runway. The Cozy is a VERY labor intensive build so make sure you know upfront that this is going to be a 3-5 year build or more. You have to work on it every day if you want to ever finish it. Go with an aircraft engine (Lycoming, ECI, Superior) as you will find the engine installation takes about 1/3 of the build time and Cozy has designed the airplane for them. There are enough of them flying with Lycomings that they have the baffling, air inlets and outlets etc. figured out. Do NOT go with a auto engine conversion. Almost all of them will be heavier, less reliable and end up costing more than a Lycoming. There are very few exceptions to this and even the good conversions require a lot more tinkering to keep them running.
The Dynon Skyview system is the best buy on the avionics market. The whole package with GPS with 3D vision, EFIS, EMS, two axis autopilot, transponder, comm, and all of the engine probes is around $15,000. I have flown with Dynon equipment for 8 or 9 years now in 6 different airplanes and they all perform flawlessly. I have installed both the early D100/120 and Sky view systems and they are easy and straightforward if a dummy like me can do it.
You will end up spending $60,000 or more to build a nice Cozy. Now look around at airplanes in that price range that you can just buy and fly right now. There are lots of RV 6,7,8s, Lancairs, Glassairs etc. in that price range.
So there's my two cents for what it's worth. Don't want to discourage you but want you to go into this with eyes open. Don
 
A buddy of mine is building a Cozy. Impressive airplane, but that is a daunting project for a first-time builder. I'd guess most of them take 8-10 years to get built; it's not bolt together like the newer Van's or Sonex kits. There is a lot of fabrication, sometimes with minimal documentation.
 
Don hit the nail on the head. Airplane engine, reliable avionics, and realistic timeframe to build. I can't stress enough that you need to stay away from car engines and how long it takes to build. You might get to see all stadiums in 2020.
 
Buy a completed airframe and hang the best option engine on it. Is the TSIO-360 off the back of a 337 an option?
 
Henning, The problem with turbos on a homebuilt is getting them to cool. Most homebuilts have very tight cowls that make it tough to cool a normally asperated engine. You are also adding exponentually more complexity to instalation and operation. Most of the homebuilts are designed around the Lycoming. Don
 
Keep the good advice coming guys!

Seems like for a first time builder maybe Lycoming is the way to go. I spent a few hours researching yesterday and it does seem that most people who go with non-traditional powerplants have issues at first.

As for Avionics, I really like the Dynon Skyview, have seen a lot of good reviews. However if the build takes say 3 years, who knows what will be the market leader in avionics at that point. Seems like there is a lot of development going on in the is area right now.

Im not daunted by the prospect of a labor intensive project. I have LOTS of free time, and when I am home I will have no issue with putting 10hr days into the project. The biggest worry for me is my lack of composite construction experience. However I am registered for the EAA composite construction class in December, so I hope that will really get me off to a good start!
 
deftone said:
Any reason for the Taxi test to be the particular milestone for avionics purchase?
Click to expand...

Yeah, you're getting close, but you don't have the finish and interior work done yet. From that point, it is unlikely that a newer/better/cheaper product comes out between when you buy and when you fly.
 
I'd put a six cylinder 200 HP UL Power engine on it. Direct drive, fuel injection and electronic ignition all standard and it weighs a good 50lbs less than the O-360. Not cheap by any means but then neither is that super duper XP-360 after you put all those same bells and whistles on it. There's already a guy in Tennessee testing a 160 hp version on a Long Ez. Several of the four banger 130 hp versions have been around for about five years now.
 
The glamour of the mold-less composite canards is that a normal mere mortal can actually build one. You don't have to plunk down a huge chunk of money to get a big box of parts. You can buy plans and think them over for awhile for comparatively little money. Then try a little piece at time as your budget allows.

No, most are nowhere close to being a "Fast-Build" Kit but then again they don't cost as much as one either. And you don't have to buy a whole shop full of single purpose tools to make them either.
 
The only thing about the foam plug building method is all the fairing work that it needs, plus controlling the lay up with vacuum bagging is a tricky deal. Also with the styrene foam core you have to use epoxy resin which is twice as much as Vinylester and four times as much as Polyester. I can produce a much better product almost as quickly and cheaper by cutting a mold out of polyester then building a product in it using a vacuum bag process and correct minimum resin amounts for the matrix.

It's a lot faster and easier to build a high quality layup in a mold. Plus once you have a set of molds, now you can produce kits.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, you're getting close, but you don't have the finish and interior work done yet. From that point, it is unlikely that a newer/better/cheaper product comes out between when you buy and when you fly.
Click to expand...

Good point...I will keep that in mind, thank you:yes:
 
Actually you need to plan your avionics installation as you build. You will build in your antennas into the structure. Its easier to put in conduits for the wiring as you build. Also mounting stuff like the autopilot needs to be thought out. I agree you need to wait as long as possible before buying but you will find you'll need it about halfway through the build. The newer systems like the Skyview are designed to be upgraded for many years to come. Also Dynon has a great trade in program to upgrade their older stuff.
It is a long way off but more homebuilts get wrecked doing high speed taxi tests than you would believe. You need to have the airplane finished and ready to fly before doing any kind of tests that involve moving around the ramp. I would also recommend using an experienced test pilot that has a lot of hours in canards to do the initial test flight. The FAA has changed the rules for phase 1 that allows an experienced pilot to fly with the builder during the test phase. Don
 
Henning said:
Do NOT buy an avionics package until you have done a taxi test.
Click to expand...
Or as recommended by most flight test professionals, "Do NOT do a taxi test until the airplane is ready for flight."

Nauga,
who has seen more than one taxi test get airborne
 
deftone said:
After much (oh god sooo much) deliberation I finally settled on the Cozy Mk IV. I have a pretty simple mission, me+SHMBO+bags. Good speed and long range. My "mission within the mission" is that I want to visit all MLB ball parks in one season!

I have never worked with composites before, however I have spent my whole career in Engineering, so I think I will be capable of pulling it off. I do plan to keep to a reasonably tight budget, by this I dont mean cutting corners, simply that I dont intend to fit a fancy $50k avionics package or $30k paint scheme..you get the idea.

Most of the construction will take place in my 2 car garage at home now that my project car has been completed (1969 Fiat spider for those who are interested). I assume that when it comes to fitting wings etc I will have to move to a hanger as I guess it will be too wide to be transported by trailer at that point? Perhaps someone could advise?

I have several EAA chapters nearby, I joined the biggest....EAA chapter 12-Houston, and found one of the members has already completed a Cozy, so I hope he will be a great source of information!

One reason that I decided to go homebuilt rather than the Mooneys I was looking at, is that I have a large amount of spare time. I work a 28day on, 28day off rotation, with very little time commitments in this 28day off period. It would be my intention to get as many hours in as possible (assuming the bank balance allows for this). What would be REALLY great (and pretty unrealistic) would be flying it to OSH '15, as the last few years I have driven...and driving from Houston is a drag!!

I signed up for the mailing lists and the canardzone forum. Seems to be a great deal of information out there. I was considering printing it all out and making up folders to put on my garage shelf for referencing, but now Im not sure if the shelving will hold so much weight in paper!

I have also registered for the EAA composite class in Houston on Dec 6-7. The timing is very fortunate for me and I expect it will be $350 well invested!

Regarding buying materials...I see that Aircraft Spruce sells the materials by chapter, but seems confusing...for example it lists the Ch3 kit at around 550, but when added to cart it jumps up to over 700, its not tax, so Im not sure if its just an old price on the site. I was also shocked by the shipping costs. Nearly $200 for the cheapest shipping of Ch3 materials to Texas??

I seen on some other builders sites that Wicks sold similar "chapter" material kits, but they dont appear to be on their site now, did they stop this?

Aside from Spruce and Wicks, are there any other suppliers I should be checking out?
Click to expand...

If you can't commit to a second full time job of building a Cozy, then don't start. I see way to many projects that simply don't get built, simply because the builder can't stay committed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top