first owner oil change

[Tom-D]

Where is this written?

the first AD and the R1 & R2 had it, R3 has been condensed, simply because the required maintenance that is required after the "IF" in the last sentence of para 2, is above and beyond the scope of a normal oil change that is covered in 43-A (c)

 

[Tom-D]

Since there is nothing in the regulations about "owner maintenance", you are asking a question which assumes facts not in evidence. However, if you are referring to "preventive maintenance", I've already quoted the relevant sections which say any "inspection" is "maintenance", and this is not an inspection which qualifies as "preventive maintenance" under paragraph (c) of Appendix A to Part 43.

you simply don't understand the normal usage of the word inspection. When you change oil don't you normally inspect for metal in the old oil? cut open the filter and inspect it? If that is an inspection, how can any owner change their own oil?

 

[JoeSelch]

the first AD and the R1 & R2 had it, R3 has been condensed, simply because the required maintenance that is required after the "IF" in the last sentence of para 2, is above and beyond the scope of a normal oil change that is covered in 43-A (c)

Interesting.
I'm looking at R2 (where I'm not seeing it) and can't find R3.
:stumped:

 

[N801BH]

..

This is gonna get good....

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm done trying to teach Tom. Per the definitions quoted, "inspection" means "inspection" and the FAA has no alternate meanings or exceptions other than the one I mentioned, which doesn't apply to this case. A non-A&P owner/pilot who signs off the inspection required by this AD is in violation of 43.5 and 43.7, and also 91.7 if s/he then flies the airplane (since it is now unairworthy). You can confirm that with a short phone call to any FAA Airworthiness Inspector at any FSDO.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm done trying to teach Tom. Per the definitions quoted, "inspection" means "inspection" and the FAA has no alternate meanings or exceptions. A non-A&P owner/pilot who signs off the inspection required by this AD is in violation of 43.5 and 43.7, and also 91.7 if s/he then flies the airplane (since it is now unairworthy). You can confirm that with a short phone call to any FAA Airworthiness Inspector at any FSDO.

Well Ron you better have an A&P check your tire pressures because you are inspecting the tire for proper pressures.

All you owners that look for metal in your oil better have an A&P sign off your oil change. by Ron's opinion you are in violation of inspecting and can't return your own oil changes.

 

[Geico266]

..

This is gonna get good....

Its like watching paint dry.

Its an oil change for Pete's sake. AN OIL CHANGE!

If the governmen told Ron L. never to poop again he wouldn't do it.

 

[Tom-D]

Its like watching paint dry.

Its an oil change for Pete's sake. AN OIL CHANGE!

If the governmen told Ron L. never to poop again he wouldn't do it.

no he'd go take a sh-t, it has a different meaning.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well Ron you better have an A&P check your tire pressures because you are inspecting the tire for proper pressures.

All you owners that look for metal in your oil better have an A&P sign off your oil change. by Ron's opinion you are in violation of inspecting and can't return your own oil changes.

Tom is inventing things. Y'all ask any Airworthiness Inspector if you need confirmation.

 

[Geico266]

I'm done trying to teach Tom. Per the definitions quoted, "inspection" means "inspection" and the FAA has no alternate meanings or exceptions other than the one I mentioned, which doesn't apply to this case. A non-A&P owner/pilot who signs off the inspection required by this AD is in violation of 43.5 and 43.7, and also 91.7 if s/he then flies the airplane (since it is now unairworthy). You can confirm that with a short phone call to any FAA Airworthiness Inspector at any FSDO.

And the plane will fall out of the air on a kindergarten.

Completely wrong.

I hope we all have leaned a lesson here.

 

[poadeleted20]

Its like watching paint dry.

Its an oil change for Pete's sake. AN OIL CHANGE!

It's not just an oil change -- on those engines covered by that AD, it's also an AD-mandated inspection, and that changes things. The owner/pilot can still sign off the oil change, but an A&P has to perform (or at least directly supervise) the inspection, and that A&P has to sign the maintenance record entry that the AD was complied with by that inspection before that aircraft is legal to fly again.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom is inventing things. Y'all ask any Airworthiness Inspector if you need confirmation.

I'd do exactly that,,,, but,,,, be certain what you are asking.

 

[poadeleted20]

And the plane will fall out of the air on a kindergarten.

Completely wrong.

I hope we all have leaned a lesson here.

You clearly have not, and neither has Tom. As I said, ask the FAA before you take Tom's advice on this -- it could save you a great deal of legal trouble.

 

[Geico266]

You should read it more carefully. The question is whether a non-A&P owner/pilot can sign off an AD-required inspection, not an oil change. And that most certainly is not "silly".

This thread is about an owner doing an oil change. The question is whether you are going to allow the love of regulations to control your every aspect of your life. That is silly!

 

[Tom-D]

It's not just an oil change -- on those engines covered by that AD, it's also an AD-mandated inspection, and that changes things. The owner/pilot can still sign off the oil change, but an A&P has to perform (or at least directly supervise) the inspection, and that A&P has to sign the maintenance record entry that the AD was complied with by that inspection before that aircraft is legal to fly again.

When metal is found, nothing but a norman oil change is being done until that point. thus when the return to service statement is showing the oil type is compliant, or the snake oil was used the AD is complied with.

an entry saying:

changed oil checked filter no metal found, replaced filter and filled engine with 8Qts of Aeroshell 15W50, ran engine with no leaks found.

is sufficient to comply with the AD.

that's a normal oil change covered by FAR 43-A (c)

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd do exactly that,,,, but,,,, be certain what you are asking.

Here's the question to ask, Tom: "Can a non-A&P owner/pilot legally perform and sign the maintenance record entry for compliance with AD 80-04-03 R2 by inspection in accordance with paragraph b.2." Please provide s the answer verbatim, not your own interpretation of what the Inspector tells you. And let us know the name and FSDO of that Inspector, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

When metal is found, nothing but a norman oil change is being done until that point.

 

[Geico266]

Ron & Tom, what engine does the OP have?

You guys are in a ****ing contest over something that probably doesn't apply to the OP, but that doesn't matter as long as you scare the hell out of him for doing his own oil change.

Shame on you Ron!

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron & Tom, what engine does the OP have?

Dunno. But this entire discussion on the AD stems from Tom's own post #20 above which first raised the O-320-H2AD issue.

If you have a 0-320-H2AD it better be an AD sign off in the engine log.

So, if you want to lay shame on someone, it shouldn't be me, because I didn't raise the issue -- Tom did.

 

[Geico266]

Dunno. But this entire discussion on the AD stems from Tom's own post #20 above which first raised the O-320-H2AD issue.

Then start your own damn thread!

 

[Geico266]

So, if you want to lay shame on someone, it shouldn't be me, because I didn't raise the issue -- Tom did.

I didn't do it mom! Tom did!

Seriously, this is pathetic.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You should read it more carefully. The question is whether a non-A&P owner/pilot can sign off an AD-required inspection, not an oil change. And that most certainly is not "silly".

I'm done trying to teach Tom. Per the definitions quoted, "inspection" means "inspection" and the FAA has no alternate meanings or exceptions other than the one I mentioned, which doesn't apply to this case. A non-A&P owner/pilot who signs off the inspection required by this AD is in violation of 43.5 and 43.7, and also 91.7 if s/he then flies the airplane (since it is now unairworthy). You can confirm that with a short phone call to any FAA Airworthiness Inspector at any FSDO.

It's not just an oil change -- on those engines covered by that AD, it's also an AD-mandated inspection, and that changes things. The owner/pilot can still sign off the oil change, but an A&P has to perform (or at least directly supervise) the inspection, and that A&P has to sign the maintenance record entry that the AD was complied with by that inspection before that aircraft is legal to fly again.

Here's the question to ask, Tom: "Can a non-A&P owner/pilot legally perform and sign the maintenance record entry for compliance with AD 80-04-03 R2 by inspection in accordance with paragraph b.2."

I hate to interrupt the pizzing match of Levy and Downey (and to be honest, I can't see Tom's remarks since he's on my blocked list) but actually in this instance a owner can sign off this AD on a routine oil change. He just has to be careful in the way he signs it off and make a reference to sign it off as "AD 80-04-03 R2, para B".

An owner is allowed by regulations to change the oil and "Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements". The inspection of visible particles in the oil doesn't require anything special.

I've come across several AD's during my time that could be logged and signed off by the owner operator.

Please provide s the answer verbatim, not your own interpretation of what the Inspector tells you. And let us know the name and FSDO of that Inspector, too.

And Ron, you play this silly game every time you get backed into a corner.

 

[Tom-D]

I raised the AD issue simply because there are times when the return to service should contain specific verbiage.
the H2AD is a good example.

 

[Geico266]

OP, now you know why more and more people are going experimental.

Even with an O-320H2AD experimentals are exempt from all this nonsense. A lot of those engines are bought and rebuilt by engine shops for home builders with oil system mods to ensure the cam and lifters get oil, but that is another topic for another day.

I am really sorry these morons screwed up your thread. It never ceases to amaze me how someone people here relish in FARs so much they become blind to common sense. Ron L. being the leader of that pack.

Having an IA sign off an oil change. A classic example of over reading the regulations, and loving it! Silly! Silly! Silly!

Mods, can we make this thread a sticky?

 

[JoeSelch]

I hate to interrupt the pizzing match of Levy and Downey (and to be honest, I can't see Tom's remarks since he's on my blocked list) but actually in this instance a owner can sign off this AD on a routine oil change. He just has to be careful in the way he signs it off and make a reference to sign it off as "AD 80-04-03 R2, para B".

An owner is allowed by regulations to change the oil and "Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements". The inspection of visible particles in the oil doesn't require anything special.

I've come across several AD's during my time that could be logged and signed off by the owner operator.

As an owner/pilot (non A&P) of an experimental (not eligible for the repairman's certificate) with an O-320-H2AD, this IS an interesting thread...
Who has the ?

 

[Tom-D]

I hate to interrupt the pizzing match of Levy and Downey (and to be honest, I can't see Tom's remarks since he's on my blocked list) but actually in this instance a owner can sign off this AD on a routine oil change. He just has to be careful in the way he signs it off and make a reference to sign it off as "AD 80-04-03 R2, para B".

An owner is allowed by regulations to change the oil and "Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements". The inspection of visible particles in the oil doesn't require anything special.

I've come across several AD's during my time that could be logged and signed off by the owner operator.



And Ron, you play this silly game every time you get backed into a corner.

Thank you.

 

[RotorAndWing]

As an owner/pilot (non A&P) of an experimental (not eligible for the repairman's certificate) with an O-320-H2AD, this IS an interesting thread...
Who has the ?

No, just severe twisting by one trolling for an argument and another who has to be right on everything.

I am really sorry these morons screwed up your thread.

Yep.

 

[FastEddieB]

Back on topic...

With an oil change, I try to clean up everything under the cowling.

Pledge on engine mounts and other painted surfaces - after cleaning with GUNK or mineral spirits if necessary,

Pledge also for rubber and plastic parts. Keeps them more "supple". Not drive belts, of course.

Corrosion-X on baffles and anything aluminum.

It makes a remarkable difference over time, and just being "hands on" can reveal lots of loose, cracked, chafing or otherwise questionable parts.

 

[Geico266]

As an owner/pilot (non A&P) of an experimental (not eligible for the repairman's certificate) with an O-320-H2AD, this IS an interesting thread...
Who has the ?

Sorry, you will need to deregister your airplane, turn in your pilot's license, relinquish your birthday, and get divorced.

The much maligned 0-320 H2AD has a reputation, but can have oil system mods to take care of the lack of oil to the cam problem.

 

[Geico266]

In an attempt to try and get this thread back on track for the OP, this is why you cut open the filter. You are looking for metal. If your engine is making metal that is not a good thing.

 

[Tom-D]

Sorry, you will need to deregister your airplane, turn in your pilot's license, relinquish your birthday, and get divorced.

The much maligned 0-320 H2AD has a reputation, but can have oil system mods to take care of the lack of oil to the cam problem.

most already do. that doesn't make the ad go away.

 

[Vance Breese]

Would you really go flying prior to a run up on the ground with the cowl off and your inspection ?

When you do that, why do it again after flight?

For any maintenance I perform I do my three takeoffs and landings in the vicinity of the airport before I fly anywhere.
I have yet to find anything so it may be silly.
I have found cracks in the exhaust before my maintenance flight on my home built gyroplane and I had an alternator bracket break on my IO-320 B1-A.
After changing the oil I warm the engine up with the cowl off; look for leaks and put everything back together and do the maintenance flight.
After the flight I remove the cowl and check for leaks and cracks again.
I am not a mechanic by trade so I watch myself carefully.
I am careful to use a torque wrench on everything and I inventory my tools and collect each piece of safety wire before I throw them away.
I make a list of the maintenance I will be performing and check it off the list as I finish each task.
Even though it though both aircraft I fly are experimentals I log all maintenance performed with hours and make notes about how long the repair lasted.
One of my gyroplanes (142MG) is a two place tandem that is one of a kind and has 1,500 hours on her.She doesn’t have a cowl.
The other is a Cavalon by Auto Gyro (509QB) kit that three amateurs built from three big boxes in three weeks. I have 250 hours on her.

 

[poadeleted20]

I hate to interrupt the pizzing match of Levy and Downey (and to be honest, I can't see Tom's remarks since he's on my blocked list) but actually in this instance a owner can sign off this AD on a routine oil change. He just has to be careful in the way he signs it off and make a reference to sign it off as "AD 80-04-03 R2, para B".

An owner is allowed by regulations to change the oil and "Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements". The inspection of visible particles in the oil doesn't require anything special.

I didn't say ask a former Operations Inspector, I said a current FSDO Airworthiness Inspector. And yes, I know you hold A&P and were an IA, but so does Tom.

I've come across several AD's during my time that could be logged and signed off by the owner operator.

Examples, please, including the verbiage in the AD allowing a non-A&P owner/pilot to perform the required inspection.

 

[Tom-D]

Examples, please, including the verbiage in the AD allowing a non-A&P owner/pilot to perform the required inspection.

There is no required inspection until after the "IF" in the last sentence. no metal = no inspection,

read para (b)

 

[Tom-D]

Here's the question to ask, Tom: "Can a non-A&P owner/pilot legally perform and sign the maintenance record entry for compliance with AD 80-04-03 R2 by inspection in accordance with paragraph b.2." Please provide s the answer verbatim, not your own interpretation of what the Inspector tells you. And let us know the name and FSDO of that Inspector, too.

Why don't you call Lycoming tech, and tell them you believe that oil changes on all Cessna 172-N with their 0-320-H2AD require an A&P to change oil.

see what they say.

 

[Witmo]

...

Examples, please, including the verbiage in the AD allowing a non-A&P owner/pilot to perform the required inspection.

AD 76-07-12 specifically says a pilot can perform the required "checks" specified by the AD. Presumably the pilot is also allowed to log compliance with the AD every 100 hours when it comes due. Not technically an inspection, but this is an example of an AD that can be accomplished by a pilot. At least the "checking" part of the AD, not the maintenance part should the item fail the check.

 

[Stewartb]

What additional items do you check for during the oil changes?

these steps I know:
take cowling off
bottom cowling off
drain oil
cut off safety wire and remove oil filter
cut oil filter to look for metal
install new oil filter and safety wire
close drain plug and safety wire
refill oil

any help and info or details would be awesome!

A couple of comments. I always use a Sharpie and note the date and tach time on the new filter can. Expect to make a mess when changing the filter. A garden sprayer and some Stoddard Solvent/Varsol and a large drip pan are your friend. So are some oil absorber pads. Think about swapping out a drain plug for a quick drain. It makes draining much easier. And on that note, I change oil every 25 hours and the filter every 50 hours. If the season's been slow I'll change the oil at 4 months but the filter at 50 hours or at the second oil change. Right now you're excited to find tasks on the plane. You'll get over that. :wink2:

 

[Geico266]

most already do. that doesn't make the ad go away.

Another reason the regulations are over bearing and silly. Once the "lack of lube oil to the cam" problem was fixed the engines should be exempt from the AD. The AD should have been "put to sleep", "KIA", "expired", but in this CYA over regulated world they allow the AD to continue for eternity. Silly! Every oil change is looking for metal, we dont need ADs looking for metal. Silly! This is why it is common practice to cut the oil filter open.

Silly! Silly! Silly!

Tom, trust me, when these engines are installed in experimentals that AD is DOA and good riddance.

BTW OP, let the filter drain for a couple of days before cutting it open. You will need a filter cutter. Don't use a hack saw as the metal shavings from the can may hide engine metal.

 

[poadeleted20]

AD 76-07-12 specifically says a pilot can perform the required "checks" specified by the AD. Presumably the pilot is also allowed to log compliance with the AD every 100 hours when it comes due. Not technically an inspection, but this is an example of an AD that can be accomplished by a pilot. At least the "checking" part of the AD, not the maintenance part should the item fail the check.

Exactly. And 80-04-03 lacks such verbiage. No such verbiage? A&P required for an AD-required "inspection".

And this isn't just me speaking -- I really did check this with the FSDO -- and an Airworthiness Inspector, not Ops.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Exactly. And 80-04-03 lacks such verbiage. No such verbiage? A&P required for an AD-required "inspection".

And this isn't just me speaking -- I really did check this with the FSDO -- and an Airworthiness Inspector, not Ops.

Ok, what is the name of the Inspector and which FSDO?