First Mooney Flight

So, how was your Mooney flight?

Mine was good, 45 minutes outbound and 50 on the return. A beautiful day to have been flying!
 
Unfortunately, we never made it off the ground. About a minute after start up, we got a signal from ground crew to cut the engine off. When we got out to see what was up, immediately noted oil leaking from the engine. There was probably already a quart on the ground when we shut down. We were pretty lucky, there's only one guy working the tarmac and he's usually pretty busy first thing in the morning. He just happened to be right by us. Would like to think we still would of picked up the problem prior to takeoff or at that rate the engine may have seized prior to takeoff, but you can't help but think about what could of happened if we took off in that condition. Guess I'll have to wait for that first Mooney flight.
 

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Oh man! That's not good . . . At least it was caught on the ground. Hopefully it's nothing serious, maybe a leaking hose, loose filter or the quick drain not closed right.

Better luck next time!
 
FlyingTiger said:
Unfortunately, we never made it off the ground. About a minute after start up, we got a signal from ground crew to cut the engine off. When we got out to see what was up, immediately noted oil leaking from the engine. There was probably already a quart on the ground when we shut down. We were pretty lucky, there's only one guy working the tarmac and he's usually pretty busy first thing in the morning. He just happened to be right by us. Would like to think we still would of picked up the problem prior to takeoff or at that rate the engine may have seized prior to takeoff, but you can't help but think about what could of happened if we took off in that condition. Guess I'll have to wait for that first Mooney flight.
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Wow! Nothing during preflight? That is a nicely modded E! Looks like all 201 and 205 updates were added plus the rounded window corners for full effect. That bird should be nice and speedy.
 
FlyingTiger said:
Unfortunately, we never made it off the ground. About a minute after start up, we got a signal from ground crew to cut the engine off. When we got out to see what was up, immediately noted oil leaking from the engine. There was probably already a quart on the ground when we shut down. We were pretty lucky, there's only one guy working the tarmac and he's usually pretty busy first thing in the morning. He just happened to be right by us. Would like to think we still would of picked up the problem prior to takeoff or at that rate the engine may have seized prior to takeoff, but you can't help but think about what could of happened if we took off in that condition. Guess I'll have to wait for that first Mooney flight.
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Buy that man a drink!
 
Wow! that's a lot of oil. Usually a little oil looks like a lot more than it is, but that's legitimately a lot! Definitely owe that line man a beer!
 
(the oil situation will be interesting to hear, please share)

I thought my 'ultimate' airplane would end up being a Mooney. As a glider guider, I like efficiency and Mooneys lean that way. High aspect ratio wings with a laminar flow airfoil allow it to perform with a small engine. Very cool.

I had a chance to fly one for my commercial training and liked it a lot. But it is a bit different. It's not the best short field machine, it needs a bit of runway for takeoff and needs to be flown accurately for landings. You lift off at a speed (actually angle of attack) where the wing is not in laminar flow mode and it just feels sluggish. When you get to the right speed the plane 'gets up on the step' and all is well. While fishing near the airport today, I happened to watch a Mooney takeoff in gusty conditions and could see it wallow around in the turbulence until it 'got up on the step' and started to groove.

On landing approach, yes it does need to be at the right speed. I can't remember the speed exactly or whether it was displayed NM or SM per hour but there's a speed (~80mph?) where it 'comes off the step' and the descent rate noticeably increases. It's critical to get to that speed on final for short field work over an obstacle. On normal approaches you can fly final just over that speed but when done right, the roundout will bring you below that speed hefore hitting ground effect. If not, you will float. Not difficult to do but necessary for good short field performance.

I
 
Do speed breaks help enough? They sell them for about 5K+installation. Are they worth it?
 
NavByte said:
Do speed breaks help enough? They sell them for about 5K+installation. Are they worth it?
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Yes, they work well to get you down Vge, while still applying enough power to get the engine temps up and not have the wind drive the engine. If you fly IFR and can't control the descent rate or fly into airports in valleys, they really come in handy, for VFR, not required. The faster models they are more common. Also handy if you run into clear air turbulence and need to slow down.
 
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Mike5250 said:
Interested to see what caused the oil leak! Just out of mx?
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Apparently, there was some "minor" maintenance the night before, but I don't have exact details. Also, the plane got all new cylinders not that long ago. Still in the break-in phase.

Flying a plane right out of maintenance is something I try to avoid however I wasn't aware that there was some work done the previous day until we were strapping in.
 
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NavByte said:
Do speed breaks help enough? They sell them for about 5K+installation. Are they worth it?
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They are very nice to have on a Mooney and work very well at the higher airspeeds. They aren't that effective at landing speed however so don't help a lot with controlling airspeed for landing. The airplane, IMO, lands basically the same with the speed brakes up...a slight difference but not as much as you'd think.
 
I've ridden in some friends Mooneys with the speed brakes, and they certainly seem to work well for the descent, but I've yet to see anyone actually keep them up all the way to landing. Usually they close them somewhere in the pattern. I have no experience with flying them myself though. Sometimes I think they'd be nice for getting down faster, but most of the time it hasn't been an issue unless I was totally daydreaming.
 
StinkBug said:
I've ridden in some friends Mooneys with the speed brakes, and they certainly seem to work well for the descent, but I've yet to see anyone actually keep them up all the way to landing. Usually they close them somewhere in the pattern. I have no experience with flying them myself though. Sometimes I think they'd be nice for getting down faster, but most of the time it hasn't been an issue unless I was totally daydreaming.
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The consensus amongst most Mooney folks on the speed brakes is, they are very, very useful on the faster, long bodied planes and nice to haves, but not necessary on the shorter planes. They are great at slowing down and creating steep descents from cruise speeds, but lose most of their effectiveness at pattern speed and really do nothing at landing speeds. In fact their certification requirements mandate that the plane be able to take off and climb with either, or both fully deployed.

Most of us want them, but don't need them. Their cost is prohibitive for wider spread adoption.
 
Dav8or said:
The consensus amongst most Mooney folks on the speed brakes is, they are very, very useful on the faster, long bodied planes and nice to haves, but not necessary on the shorter planes.
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I found them handy when flying an M20K on short IFR trips in Southern California, where ATC would sometimes keep you at cruise altitude until the last minute. Popping the brakes helped keep the engine warm during those steep descents.

Flying-1990s-03032.jpg
 
Pilawt said:
I found them handy when flying an M20K on short IFR trips in Southern California, where ATC would sometimes keep you at cruise altitude until the last minute. Popping the brakes helped keep the engine warm during those steep descents.

Flying-1990s-03032.jpg
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Yep. That's what they are really good for and why you see them pretty standard on the turbo Mooneys.
 
teejayevans said:
Many Mooneys have speed brakes, which helps when you to get down and slow down at the same time. My rule of thumb is I need 5nm for every 1000' of altitude, unfortunately you can't always do that, ATC had me at 4000' at 8 miles...I cancelled IFR and did a 360 to lose altitude and speed.
I've done my share of go arounds, don't try to save a landing from a bad position(speed), swallow your pride and go around.
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Pride need never be swallowed on a go-around. That's just sound judgment being exercised.
 
NavByte said:
Do speed breaks help enough? They sell them for about 5K+installation. Are they worth it?
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They're nice to have. I probably wouldn't have paid to add them to a bird that didn't already have them, but they are nice.

That said, I try not to use them. What's the point of having an efficient airframe if you just have to use speed brakes to add drag? If you plan your descents properly, you won't need them. They are a nice tool to have in your back pocket, though.

There are three things I find them to be really good for:

1) Killing lift on landing
2) Getting down to Vle from cruise speed
3) IFR descents when busy

As far as landing with them - They add a slight bit of drag, but what they really do is also to kill lift on about an 8-inch section of each wing. I've found that if you're flying a normal approach and you have them out during the roundout, you'll generally hit hard. So, even if I do have them out on final, I'll retract prior to the roundout.

After the roundout, though, extending them tends to be just enough to get the wheels to plant almost right away. If you're going into a short field (and I consider less than 2500 feet to be "short" for the Ovation in that it does require different technique than normal), that can help immensely.

Getting down to Vle from cruise - Pretty self explanatory. You get more drag from the gear than anything else, so generally as soon as I'm down to Vle I extend the gear and retract the speed brakes.

Busy or short IFR descents - This is great when you're getting into a terminal area and you're at 4000 feet and they tell you to descend to 3400 for example. Without reconfiguring anything else, pop the brakes and you'll get a 500fpm (or so) descent. If you do happen to be busy at that time, you can accomplish the descent without having to change power, trim, or anything else.

FWIW, I have had an asymmetric deployment before I had them sent in and overhauled last summer. The application of rudder to counteract it was surprisingly slight. I'm sure the plane would fly just fine with an asymmetric deployment and no rudder, it'd just be in a slip.

The plane was 16 1/2 years old at the time, and I could find no evidence of prior work done on the speed brakes in the logs. I think it cost about $1500 for the R&R and overhaul by Precise Flight.

Hope this helps!
 
I've gotten along very well without them, but I rarely cruise above 10,000 msl. Approach at my original base would sometimes hold me at 4000-4500 until I crossed their runway centerline; my destination was 567 msl, 4 nm away. So I would make two 2-minute 360°s, to descend to 1600 and slow down. Then I would continue to decelerate most or all the way to pattern entry.

A friend had an F with speed brakes, the effect was minimal at pattern speed.

For a firm set down after touching, while holding throttle at Idle, I reach out my pinky and raise the flaps. Works great!
 
Hank S said:
I've gotten along very well without them, but I rarely cruise above 10,000 msl. Approach at my original base would sometimes hold me at 4000-4500 until I crossed their runway centerline; my destination was 567 msl, 4 nm away. So I would make two 2-minute 360°s, to descend to 1600 and slow down. Then I would continue to decelerate most or all the way to pattern entry.

A friend had an F with speed brakes, the effect was minimal at pattern speed.

For a firm set down after touching, while holding throttle at Idle, I reach out my pinky and raise the flaps. Works great!
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Like I said, the mid and short body Mooneys the speed brakes are nice to haves, but not necessary. I bet if you had bought your plane with them, you would use them more than you think, but I agree, the cost to add them just isn't worth it... I guess... maybe... ;)

All I know is a flew with a guy that had an M20F and it had the original Precise Flight speed brakes that were cable operated instead of electric and all I can say was they worked amazing and seemed like they would be really handy even in a vintage plane. I did come away wanting them. I actually wish they still made the manual cable style ones.
 
PC12 seems to get along just fine without speed brakes.

Seems like a solution in search of a problem.
 
James331 said:
PC12 seems to get along just fine without speed brakes.



Seems like a solution in search of a problem.
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A. It's not as aerodynamic, it's gets it speed by brute force
B. You can pull a turbine back to idle, pulling a piston engine from cruise to idle will shock cool the engine.
 
This thread reminds me of the flight back home after picking up my first airplane...a Mooney M20F...mid length.
Up until that time I had been flying Arrows.

I was flying over the Blue Ridge mountains about 12000...trying to stay VFR for scattered clouds below me. I was setting up to stop for fuel on just the other side of the mountains and so I started pulling power to descend. It felt like nothing at all happened. I pulled all power and she seemed to only want to slow down a few knots and barely descend. I had to pull power and pull back to get her to pay attention and start slowing down. Needless to say I spent a lot of 360s out there before I could get down to pattern level.

Fast forward to this year. Sold Mooney a year a go and started back working on IFR. I am planning on buying a new plane starting next week...prob V35..maybe a mooney....
I went to get checked out in the local rentail Arrow 4 and was approaching the airport to land. I started pulling power and dropping gear 4-5 miles out as I had always done in the Mooney...what a surprise for me...she started dropping like a rock...CFI looked at me and asked me what I was doing....
Lesson learned...power on and rest was uneventful.
But it is true...Mooneys do not slow down much.
But the number one reason I will be looking at Bonanzas are the low profile.
A hole in the tarmac...which of course should never be there and would not have hurt most other planes ended up with a prop strike ...tips only and a tear down....I want more flexibility on where I can land.
I know other Mooney pilots who land on grass and have a different experience. But that was mine.
Fast plane, I loved flying her cross country..who knows I might still buy one but focusing on Bos for now.
 
The single engine Comanche has pretty good ground clearance with the 6x6.00 tire up front and was designed for use on unimproved strips. Call me jaded, I think they're one of the best values around. :yes:
 
teejayevans said:
A. It's not as aerodynamic, it's gets it speed by brute force
B. You can pull a turbine back to idle, pulling a piston engine from cruise to idle will shock cool the engine.
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You really think a PC12 with that bullet nose is that much more dirty than a old Mooney?

Ether way, it's just basic math and airmanship, you shouldn't need speed brakes to get down to altitude. Heck if you really have to pull back to the bottom of the green, slow to VLO, drop the gear and defend bottom of the green, using EGTs to manage CHTs, at VLE.

If that doesn't do it, someone really screwed up their planning.
 
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