First in-flight failure

Hey Dave, your plane didn't have any electrical system except the mags. Suppose his slow drain was a short in a primary wire somewhere? The alt is putting out 40-50 amps, and most of that is shunting right into a ground somewhere. That could be a problem, as in an electrical fire. Sure, you can turn it off, by switching off the master, but it's a question of whether you catch it in time or not.

Sure, the plane will fly fine. If he had switched off the master, and left it off, hand prop the plane, and made his flight with reference only to his chart or battery GPS I could have respected that. But he wanted to use all the electrical power that was in the battery and deplete it until it was dead. This is not kosher. Flight without electrical is certainly possible. But flight with a known bad electrical system is a recipe for disaster. A couple of guys in a 310 found out the hard way not long ago. Of course, they don't have to worry about it anymore cause they're dead.
 
DavidWhite said:
Eybkowsky oopsed, it happens. He's 17 and if you tell me you never did something silly when you were 17 then you are a damn liar.
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Thanks Dave, I still do need to learn to be more conservative as a low hour pilot though.... and get a handheld.
 
docmirror said:
Hey Dave, your plane didn't have any electrical system except the mags. Suppose his slow drain was a short in a primary wire somewhere? The alt is putting out 40-50 amps, and most of that is shunting right into a ground somewhere. That could be a problem, as in an electrical fire. Sure, you can turn it off, by switching off the master, but it's a question of whether you catch it in time or not.

Sure, the plane will fly fine. If he had switched off the master, and left it off, hand prop the plane, and made his flight with reference only to his chart or battery GPS I could have respected that. But he wanted to use all the electrical power that was in the battery and deplete it until it was dead. This is not kosher. Flight without electrical is certainly possible. But flight with a known bad electrical system is a recipe for disaster. A couple of guys in a 310 found out the hard way not long ago. Of course, they don't have to worry about it anymore cause they're dead.
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I'm not saying it was a good idea at all (quite the opposite) but beating the kid over the head again and again about it doesn't solve anything. Everyone is alive and the plane is able to be used again - now as the good Doctor would say "Go forth and sin no more"
 
DavidWhite said:
I'm not saying it was a good idea at all (quite the opposite) but beating the kid over the head again and again about it doesn't solve anything. Everyone is alive and the plane is able to be used again - now as the good Doctor would say "Go forth and sin no more"
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:yes: Sounds good!
 
Taking off with a known problem can be ok depending on what it is, but to do so without comfirming why that system isn't working is pretty stupid IMO. There could have been an underlying problem that could have made the electrical failure the least of your problems.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
There's not a pilot here who hasn't done something stupid...from taking off with the brakes on to leaving the tow bar on (prop strike) to just plain getting overwhelmed and acting like an idiot in flight.

Take comfort from the fact that you are here learning from the experts and sharing things that could be embarrassing.

Learn from this and move on. And thanks for posting...
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This. I have a story about an oil cap and a cessna 182 that I only tell over beer :wink2:. Live and learn and more importantly, don't be stupid.
 
Also just so ya knkw, I just flew the plane today and she was fine, battery didn't need to be replaced or anything... turned out to be a faulty alternator.
 
GCA319 said:
This. I have a story about an oil cap and a cessna 182 that I only tell over beer :wink2:. Live and learn and more importantly, don't be stupid.
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I have that same story, and it makes a godawful mess to clean up.
 
ebykowsky said:
TLDR: skip to paragraph 3
Had my first in-flight failure today on a just-for-fun XC to KAGS with my dad (fun for me, not as much for him :) ).--this was my first flight in a month, and my first flight over .5 hobbs in 2 months.
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Congrats on your first flight with your dad! It reminds me of the first time i took my dad for a 1 hour flight (he was my second passenger after getting my certificate) - and just like you, i hadn't had flights prior to that in a while. Good experience for you as well - during the flight and thereafter ;-)

Hopefully you'll have more flights with him (i know my dad would be happier if i stopped flying then if i continue (and I'm twice your age with my own family ;-) )).

So make him feel as good as you can and have a non-eventful but entertaining flight.
 
DavidWhite said:
I did a preflight on an airplane once and noted that there was no electrical or vacuum system - due to the necessity of the flight however I pulled it out anyways, hand propped it, and flew to my destination to give rides, and hand propped it a few more times.

The plane? A 1946 Piper Cub.

Jesus Christ people, FTFA - an electrical failure in VMC is not a big deal at ALL. I frequently fly planes with no electrical system, no vacuum system, and I'm not dead yet.
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You're missing the point. He took off without knowing the root cause of his problem, which for an electrical problem can equal fire.
 
GCA319 said:
You're missing the point. He took off without knowing the root cause of his problem, which for an electrical problem can equal fire.
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He didn't know it could be so serious. Now he does. How can we expect people to post their experiences if we jump all over them? Of course I say that having just watched a mandatory SMS video...
 
Everskyward said:
He didn't know it could be so serious. Now he does. How can we expect people to post their experiences if we jump all over them? Of course I say that having just watched a mandatory SMS video...
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I'm not jumping all over the OP, I'm disagreeing with David's post.
 
GCA319 said:
I'm not jumping all over the OP, I'm disagreeing with David's post.
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Sorry to quote you then. But look at the rest of the thread.

If we want to learn from other peoples mistakes they can't be leery of posting them. I agree that some might not feel comfortable posting their identity even their screen name but that is why we have the Lessons Learned forum. There's also a difference between ignorance and a willful violation.
 
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Everskyward said:
There's also a difference between ignorance and a willful violation.
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But sometimes plausible denial makes that a mighty fine line. I am of the sort if it does not seem right then it is not right. It has helped me in many endeavors and certainly has helped me in flying. Life is too short to begin with, wasting it is not an option.
 
douglas393 said:
But sometimes plausible denial makes that a mighty fine line. I am of the sort if it does not seem right then it is not right. It has helped me in many endeavors and certainly has helped me in flying. Life is too short to begin with, wasting it is not an option.
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But he didn't need to post it. I would think if someone thought they did something willfully wrong they wouldn't post it on the Internet. But I'm not 17 any more either.
 
The FBO should have never had that bird on the line to begin with.........find a new FBO
 
Vf6cruiser said:
The FBO should have never had that bird on the line to begin with.........find a new FBO
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You guys are tough... at I wouldn't be able to rent a plane anywhere if I went by those standards. The other one around here has a plane with half the firewall cover hanging off the panel.
 
The A&P at the FBO should lose his license if he told you to fly it anyway. The plane was NOT airworthy.
 
Geico266 said:
The A&P at the FBO should lose his license if he told you to fly it anyway. The plane was NOT airworthy.
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You're gonna think I'm even dumber when I say this if you had thought it was the mechanic all along... but it was the desk attendant.
 
Funny how these things happen....

:yesnod: Just after my posts above, I left for the airport to meet a friend for a nice flight up the CA Coast then through the desert, back to Van Nuys in a Cirrus SR20.

Guess what. On run-up, I was getting a 180 RPM drop on the right magneto, with a subtle roughness. In all likelihood, I would have been fine. But I couldn't "burn" off the plug, and the RPM drop was the same after 6 tries.

I think many pilots would have gone. But I figure Cirrus tells me 150 RPM limit for a reason. So, with great disappointment, I taxi'd back and cancelled a flight I've been looking forward to all week.

This is one of those times when "get there itis" was strong, even though it was just a scenic tour. But I chose to ground a plane that clearly didn't meet specs. Why bother doing a run-up if you ignore the results?

At least I now have time for my trip to Trader Joe's. And who knows...I might just have been in the air right now with bigger problems. :hairraise:
 
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For the folks mentioning that he's only 17, need I remind you that the laws of physics apply regardless of one's age?
 
Brad Z said:
For the folks mentioning that he's only 17, need I remind you that the laws of physics apply regardless of one's age?
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Because doing something silly with an electrical system and smacking into the ground WOT is the same thing.
 
Brad Z said:
For the folks mentioning that he's only 17, need I remind you that the laws of physics apply regardless of one's age?
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True, but many 17-year-olds will tune an older person out completely after receiving some of the comments above. Heck, someone the same age might receive comments back in kind. So which is better? Maybe to get your message across? I'm just glad I had no public forum when I was 17!
 
ebykowsky said:
You're gonna think I'm even dumber when I say this if you had thought it was the mechanic all along... but it was the desk attendant.
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The desk attendant needs to be counseled. He let a non airworthy plane get dispatched. The FBO could have been named in a resulting lawsuit by your family if you had not made it home because of a fire.

Did the previous renter write it up? Or just tell you there was an issue with the discharge. Any write up in the dispatch log should require a review by a mechanic or chief pilot before the aircraft is allowed to be rented again.

No charging to the battery, either the alternator is working and the electricity is going somewhere, a bad short? Internal or external to the alternator could result in a fire. Or a broken ground wire?

You said you flew it today and the battery was fine. But running it to zero has lowered its overall service life.
 
Geico266 said:
Knowingly flying a plane that is not airworthy is just plain dumb.
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A VFR airplane without an electrical system is not airworthy?

Dang, I'll have to tell my cub friends...

When I was a student, I came out for a flight and the AI was tumbling and would not stabilize. I flew an XC anyway and yes, I departed with a known problem to the flight instruments.
 
bflynn said:
A VFR airplane without an electrical system is not airworthy?

Dang, I'll have to tell my cub friends...
s.
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A lot of fun being made trying to compare an aircraft with a certified electrical system to Cubs and Champs.

If the aircraft is certified with an engine driven electrical system. It is not airworthy if it is not working properly.
 
I know a guy who ran out of fuel even though he had plenty of fuel to make the trip, and a tailwind to boot. As he allways did, he had plenty of altitude to glide to an airport, but there was no gas at the airport. Hadda thumb a ride into town and get gas at the gas station. The flush mount caps in his 182 had bad seals, all the gas siphoned out. his nice red and white airplane turned blue in flight.

I know a couple of guys that set out to Sun-N-Fun, with an inop Transponder:eek:
and while enroute the vacuum pump failed, :yikes:
No worries, didn't need either one, and upon arrival at Lakeland went shoppin' for the parts.
 
It's true that the airplane will fly just fine without the master on. As stated earlier this is necessary to not discharge the battery, which will kill it.

Dave, I fly a cub regularly. It has no electrical system. You are a commercial pilot so you went over this stuff recently. What instruments does a cub have that a 172 (with master off) does not?

Some of them are pretty important.
 
bluerooster said:
I know a couple of guys that set out to Sun-N-Fun, with an inop Transponder:eek:
and while enroute the vacuum pump failed, :yikes:
No worries, didn't need either one, and upon arrival at Lakeland went shoppin' for the parts.
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Are those required for day VFR flight?

Nope
 
ebykowsky said:
I decided to only put in around 15deg. of flaps on final because I didn't want to be stuck with 30deg. if we had to go around and couldn't get them back up.
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Learn to sideslip. In your situation, (assuming I would launch with a known electrical fault, which ain't gonna happen) I would have landed with no flaps at all, which gives you better options in the event of a go around.
 
dell30rb said:
It's true that the airplane will fly just fine without the master on. As stated earlier this is necessary to not discharge the battery, which will kill it.

Dave, I fly a cub regularly. It has no electrical system. You are a commercial pilot so you went over this stuff recently. What instruments does a cub have that a 172 (with master off) does not?

Some of them are pretty important.
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Oil pressure and temp. The cub I flew had an ASI, Altimeter, Compass, Oil temp and pressure, and a tach. IF I remember right.
 
O.k. so we're flying along and we see we've got a discharge. We're in class E/G, VFR, X-country to a non-towered destination at FL 085.

Do you kill the master to save the batt? Or keep the X-ponder and radio working? Alternate off/on? Do a 180 if you're under half way?

What's your SHTF generator plan? What are the rules? Instead of bashing the OP, let's work the problem. What is the best and legal in flight work the problem solution? It's strictly pilot in command stuff. I can't say what I would do without several factors being known, but the rules say you can continue. You don't have to land immediately.


"Whether two-way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14 CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency. In the event of two-way radio communications failure, ATC service will be provided on the basis that the pilot is operating in accordance with 14 CFR Section 91.185."
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"If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable." The AIM has a clarifying note that states: "However, it is not intended that the requirement to 'land as soon as practicable' be construed to mean 'as soon as possible.' Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination."
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Future: assuming I catch the discharge in the air: notify ATC I have a problem with the electrical system. Tell them I'm going dark. Shut off avionics and master. Proceed to destination without using master again. If comms had failed before catching the issue, squawk 7600 first. Then shut it all down after 2 min. or so and proceed as I did in scenario 1.
If we were halfway there, we definitely would have done a 180. Couldn't have landed at a class D without making radio contact. If we had made radio contact before the failure, we should've landed there under light guns and then worked it out in AGS.
 
ebykowsky said:
You guys are tough... at I wouldn't be able to rent a plane anywhere if I went by those standards. The other one around here has a plane with half the firewall cover hanging off the panel.
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Welcome to POA. You have to have a thick skin here at times. One thing you have to understand, is that regardless of your actions or opinions, there will always be at least one person that thinks you are total and utter moron because of them.

I guess some people just get some sort of self satisfaction over playing Internet judge.
 
DavidWhite said:
Oil pressure and temp. The cub I flew had an ASI, Altimeter, Compass, Oil temp and pressure, and a tach. IF I remember right.
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Don't forget fuel.


Yep the cub has fuel, oil pressure and temp gauges that work with no electrical system. Fuel and oil are necessary for continued flight.

What if you left the fuel cap off of a high wing? Engine issues and its dumping oil out the breather on the belly? Bird made a nest in the cowl and your engine is overheating? With working gauges, you would notice those problems before the prop stops and everything gets real quiet.

I might consider a short ferry flight for a maintenance with the master off but that's about it. You are missing required instruments for day VFR and technically would need a ferry permit
 
Okay, follow up question. Say you know exactly what the issue is. Would you launch? Not necessarily in this particular case. But let's play with an example. I was sitting at the hold short line and my oil temperature was stable about a needle's width into the yellow, as was my oil pressure. Launch or not?

This was when I flew a Sky Arrow to Dulles for Become a Pilot day at the Air and Space Museum. It was a warm early summer's day, and there was a looong wait for departure. The Sky Arrow has a pusher prop, which means that cooling on the ground is nothing short of horrible. As I was taxiing out and waiting in the long conga line for departure, I noticed the oil temperature creeping up and the oil pressure dropping, but they stabilized once they were both juuuust in the yellow. Given the warm day, long time on the ground, and horrible cooling of a pusher, I took that to mean that nothing was actually wrong and that all would cool off after departure. As I expected, about a minute after I took off, everything was back in the green again, hunky dory.

Still though, I took off knowing full well that the oil pressure and temperature gauges were in the yellow. Do I get the same treatment from ye Prophets of Aviation? Or am I forgiven because I knew exactly why I was seeing what I was seeing?
 
Yellow = avoid continuous operation, or operate with caution.
 
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