First hurdle in training might bring it to a screeching halt

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astro13rm

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Rob
Well, some disappointing news today...

I get a call from my CFI who was notified by the company I am renting the aircraft through for training that I can no longer rent the aircraft unless I use one of their flight instructors for training. I have not spoken to them myself yet but am told they are citing insurance concerns. I highly doubt the instructors are employees but are probably independent contractors of some kind.

The rental operation is a small one -- three Cessna 172s in varying models. I think they have maybe a couple of instructors.

My CFI is trying to get a hold of the owner and see what's up -- he says he's never run into this before. And from a financial perspective it is interesting since I would imagine they make most of the money from the aircraft rental and not the instructor fees.

Unfortunately they are the only game in town so unless we can work this out I suppose I'll be looking around again for more instruction. Still hoping for a positive resolution to this wrinkle, however...

Rob
 
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That's not uncommon. Most FBOs require their instructors. Maybe your CFI could affiliate with them, but they'd want a cut of the CFI fees, so you may end up paying a bit more.
 
astro13rm said:
Well, some disappointing new today...

I get a call from my CFI who was notified by the company I am renting the aircraft through for training that I can no longer rent the aircraft unless I use one of their flight instructors for training. I have not spoken to them myself yet but am told they are citing insurance concerns. I highly doubt the instructors are employees but are probably independent contractors of some kind.

The rental operation is a small one -- three Cessna 172s in varying models. I think they have maybe a couple of instructors.

My CFI is trying to get a hold of the owner and see what's up -- he says he's never run into this before. And from a financial perspective it is interesting since I would imagine they make most of the money from the aircraft rental and not the instructor fees.

Unfortunately they are the only game in town so unless we can work this out I suppose I'll be looking around again for more instruction. Still hoping for a positive resolution to this wrinkle, however...

Rob
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If it's anything like the operation down in Boerne, they may not be making much money at all on the aircraft rental. The % cut off of the "instructors rate" is the primary source of extra funds.
Same goes for my Taylorcraft. At the rate I have it priced, I could possibly make $5/hr or so if everything works, but I could also lose big. If you have no maintenance issues for a good stretch, yeah, the airplane is probably making money, but you're a fool if you count it as profit. I know a flight school owner that was doing that, and spending the money elsewhere and when planes started to break and not get fixed, it was awful.
So yeah, they probably want a cut from your instructor, or for you to work with THEIR instructors so they can make more off of the rental.

Ryan
 
What's interesting is that he has done this before but I think that was when the company was under different ownership.

I wouldn't even mind paying a little more to keep my CFI, I suppose.

Just not smart business -- a cut of small CFI fees or keeping your planes in the air. Their schedule is no where near full so their aircraft are doing a lot of sitting.
 
astro13rm said:
I get a call from my CFI who was notified by the company I am renting the aircraft through for training that I can no longer rent the aircraft unless I use one of their flight instructors for training.
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That's pretty typical.

I have not spoken to them myself yet but am told they are citing insurance concerns.
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That's typical of the aviation insurance industry.

I highly doubt the instructors are employees but are probably independent contractors of some kind.
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Nevertheless, they will be screened, standardized, and checked by the aircraft operator.

My CFI is trying to get a hold of the owner and see what's up -- he says he's never run into this before.
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He must not have been instructing very long if that's true. I've been a CFI for over 40 years, and can count on one hand the number of FBO's allowing someone other than one of their own instructors to give training in their airplanes.

And from a financial perspective it is interesting since I would imagine they make most of the money from the aircraft rental and not the instructor fees.
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I think you'd be surprised if you saw the actual numbers.

Unfortunately they are the only game in town so unless we can work this out I suppose I'll be looking around again for more instruction.
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You and your instructor can try to come to some special arrangement with the aircraft provider, but odds are the only way will be for your instructor to sign on with the aircraft provider.
 
astro13rm said:
What's interesting is that he has done this before but I think that was when the company was under different ownership.

I wouldn't even mind paying a little more to keep my CFI, I suppose.

Just not smart business -- a cut of small CFI fees or keeping your planes in the air. Their schedule is no where near full so their aircraft are doing a lot of sitting.
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It may be an insurance thing....assuming you'd like to solo at some point.
 
Appreciate the info...

To address experience -- he's been a CFI for quite some time with many hours. He doesn't mind flying with them to qual with them. Again, hopefully he can come to an agreement with the owner.
 
astro13rm said:
Just not smart business -- a cut of small CFI fees or keeping your planes in the air. Their schedule is no where near full so their aircraft are doing a lot of sitting.
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Allowing an outside instructor to teach in their planes might void their insurance policy, or require paying a premium increase so steep that it would overwhelm any additional earnings from allowing it.
 
LDJones said:
It may be an insurance thing....assuming you'd like to solo at some point.
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Yah, possibly. I also carry extra renters insurance through AOPA above and beyond what the company has.
 
Where are you located?

If the place is small/slow, you can just threaten to go to another FBO. Of course, you need to be prepared to follow through...

A lot of things get blamed on insurance, sometimes out of convenience.
 
ja_user said:
Where are you located?

If the place is small/slow, you can just threaten to go to another FBO. Of course, you need to be prepared to follow through...

A lot of things get blamed on insurance, sometimes out of convenience.
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I'm considering it. While many on here say this is really common and that they aren't surprised it just doesn't feel right. Perhaps I'm naive, of course.

The next closest option is a few hours away so it's doable but not ideal. Like I said, my first choice is to come to an arrangement of some kind.

From my research when I was first looking around, this place isn't cheap (compared to the region, not necessarily nationally). I'm paying about $150+tax for a C172R per hour.
 
Ron Levy said:
Allowing an outside instructor to teach in their planes might void their insurance policy, or require paying a premium increase so steep that it would overwhelm any additional earnings from allowing it.
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I was working with one if my instrument instructors at a place across the field that has an Arrow. You had to pay their rates yet he only got part so he wanted to make up the difference. I decided to put the arrow training on hold.
 
astro13rm said:
I'm considering it. While many on here say this is really common and that they aren't surprised it just doesn't feel right. Perhaps I'm naive, of course.

The next closest option is a few hours away so it's doable but not ideal. Like I said, my first choice is to come to an arrangement of some kind.

From my research when I was first looking around, this place isn't cheap (compared to the region, not necessarily nationally). I'm paying about $150+tax for a C172R per hour.
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Honestly, a few hours away for a rental? They got you where they want you. That would really slow down your ability to run out and do a quick flight (after you are solo'd)...

So I wouldn't try to play hardball in that particular situation.. It could be that they have insurance issues, or it could be that they are watching out for their own CFI's..
 
If rental aircraft are that hard to come by and you don't like the rental terms, maybe it is time for you and/or your instructor to think about buying an airplane. You could make it available to rent and beat the other place at their own game too.
 
This is normal. Typically most commercial insurance polices are only going to cover instructors that are added to the policy or employed by the company (depends on the arrangement). I've never seen one that would allow any random instructor. If their policy does not cover it then that's just the way it is. You having your own rental insurance does not change the picture at all because your insurance is to protect you, not them.
 
Renting out old airplanes for initial training is a low margin business. Likely he is an A&I and doing all his own work or he would close his doors.
Insurance is a ball crusher.
Our local FBO has no hull insurance because he would have to add about $30 an hour if he did and then no one would rent his plane. He has PL&PD and even that is sucking money out of his pocket. And he is the only small/GA plane renting FBO left standing in 3 counties.

I have an Apache that was used by the local FBO for over 30 years for multi engine training when it wasn't being an air taxi or hauling auto parts. I have owned it for 14 years now. There is no FBO offering a twin engine within 50-70 miles. To this day I get phone calls wanting to rent the plane to do training. Early on I thought about it, researched the cost of insurance, made a best guess as to my maintenance costs, etc. etc. and concluded that I would lose my shirt in the end. The plane would need to fly 18-20 hours a week to be viable at the price I can get for rental. There is no market demand for that many hours. And the price I would need just to break even while renting out 3 hours a week (estimated demand) would bring the rental hours to zero.

I doubt that the FBO saying you have to use his instructors is greedy or nefarious. Likely he is trying to survive - and slowly sliding over the cliff.

Welcome to the brave new world of America where 70% of the US tax revenue is transferred from those who work to those who won't - for politicians to buy votes.
 
I doubt it's actually an insurance thing, especially with standard trainer, if you were training in a T-6 or a Bonanza, maybe, in a 172 I call BS, this is about making money off the instructor. People use the insurance company excuse all the time for all sorts of things, I always ask them to "show me", they never can.
 
Henning said:
I doubt it's actually an insurance thing, especially with standard trainer, if you were training in a T-6 or a Bonanza, maybe, in a 172 I call BS, this is about making money off the instructor. People use the insurance company excuse all the time for all sorts of things, I always ask them to "show me", they never can.
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You can doubt all you want, but it's a nearly universal condition and the fact that they did not feel like taking the time and effort to prove it to you personally doesn't change that situation.
 
Are you friends with any owners on the field? If so, approach one about putting you on his insurance as a named pilot and pay any difference in premium. Then agree on a per hour rate to use the plane. I did that for a student of my instructor when the FBO went out of business.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can doubt all you want, but it's a nearly universal condition and the fact that they did not feel like taking the time and effort to prove it to you personally doesn't change that situation.
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What's the universal condition? Even if Open Pilot doesn't apply to the instruction, you make a phone call with the cert number and times to the insurance company and you're good to go. The plane is already under rental for instruction, it already has a high dollar policy. This is a school issue wanting to make a cut off the instructor fees. I bet they charge $50 for instruction and pay their instructors $18, THAT is more the "universal condition" at flight schools.
 
Henning said:
What's the universal condition? Even if Open Pilot doesn't apply to the instruction, you make a phone call with the cert number and times to the insurance company and you're good to go. The plane is already under rental for instruction, it already has a high dollar policy. This is a school issue wanting to make a cut off the instructor fees. I bet they charge $50 for instruction and pay their instructors $18, THAT is more the "universal condition" at flight schools.
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That may work for a business and pleasure policy, but for a commercial policy, it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. The instructor must become an employee of or contractor to the FBO, there's paperwork, standardization/check-out rides, etc, and that's all time and money for the FBO. Of course, since the instructor is now gaining benefit from the FBO, and the FBO is sharing some of the instructor's costs and risks, the instructor is going to have to share some of the instructional fee with the FBO, and I'm guessing that the OP's instructors unwillingness to do that is the main barrier to a solution.
 
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Ron Levy said:
That may work for a business and pleasure policy, but for a commercial policy, it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. The instructor must become an employee of or contractor to the FBO, there's paperwork, standardization/check-out rides, etc, and that's all time and money for the FBO. Of course, since the instructor is now gaining benefit from the FBO, and the FBO is sharing some of the instructor's costs and risks, the instructor is going to have to share some of the instructional fee with the FBO, and I'm guessing that the OP's instructors unwillingness to do that is the main barrier to a solution.
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Well he has a full time job on the Air Force base where we work so he hasn't looked into that option yet. In the past he has instructed people who owned their own planes. His aircraft isn't suitable for private cert instruction. In the past before the company changed hands I think he used to be on their list.

One of the things he is going to look into is how to get checked out through them to satisfy their insurance requirements.

His fee for instruction is very low. He basically teaches to people he knows in the military as a side hobby. He is not doing this to make tons of money. I would not mind paying the difference to the FBO so they can see their extra 20/hour from instruction above and beyond their rental rates.
 
...I haven't run into an 'independent' CFI that didn't have his/her own plane for exactly this reason. I bought a plane about 5 hours into my training and had to do some insurance work to get the CFI's from my school on our policy. It was simple - just wanted to CFI numbers, flight hours, time in that type, etc...
 
Rob, this may sound a bit extreme but could you get financing to buy a usable older 172 or 152 if you and your CFI aren't real big guys and just train in that then sell it? You'd get your money back (assuming no huge Mx issues) and you wouldn't have to bother with other folks using your plane etc.
 
kenjr said:
...I haven't run into an 'independent' CFI that didn't have his/her own plane for exactly this reason. I bought a plane about 5 hours into my training and had to do some insurance work to get the CFI's from my school on our policy. It was simple - just wanted to CFI numbers, flight hours, time in that type, etc...
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Again, he isn't a CFI full time. He does have his own plane but is not suitable for a private.
 
Jeanie said:
Rob, this may sound a bit extreme but could you get financing to buy a usable older 172 or 152 if you and your CFI aren't real big guys and just train in that then sell it? You'd get your money back (assuming no huge Mx issues) and you wouldn't have to bother with other folks using your plane etc.
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I had thought about that but am not in a place just yet where I am prepared to do that. I'd almost rather save a bit longer and get what I really want and train in that if it comes down to it.

I'm still hopeful we can find a solution.

I'm also keeping my ear to the ground of local partnerships either with a typical buy-in or a less than traditional setup along the lines of paying the insurance difference, half the hangar fees, and pay into the maintenance as a fraction of hours used (with whatever I pay in staying with the aircraft). Traditional partnerships aren't super ideal for me since I move around every 3 years or so.
 
I'm in the same boat as the OP. I have a friend of mine that is a CFII that is training me. I am renting thru Medina OH 45 min drive away. He had to do a check ride and get added to their insurance for him to be able to train me. I asked my local flight school to do the same and the owner agreed as long as we followed their schools policy. Not an hour later (after lunch) he came back and said it wouldn't work due to a reason that would take too long to explain. But the just of it is that he wanted the $50/hr for the instructor. He also said the they would pay my friend and if my fiend wanted to reimburse me for the instructor fee that was up to him. It's my opinion that he wanted to make the extra money that's why he changed his mind.
 
astro13rm said:
Well he has a full time job on the Air Force base where we work so he hasn't looked into that option yet. In the past he has instructed people who owned their own planes.

His fee for instruction is very low. He basically teaches to people he knows in the military as a side hobby. He is not doing this to make tons of money.
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I hate to ask, but is there an Aero Club on base?
 
warthog1984 said:
I hate to ask, but is there an Aero Club on base?
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Unfortunately not. There used to be one years ago I think. They are a diminishing breed on the AF bases these days. It's a shame, actually.
 
All instructing I've done in rental aircraft has required I submit all my times and paperwork to their insurance company for approval. They also only had so many instructor slots the insurance company would permit.
 
jesse said:
All instructing I've done in rental aircraft has required I submit all my times and paperwork to their insurance company for approval. They also only had so many instructor slots the insurance company would permit.
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Maybe that then will be a part of the solution which would be fine.
 
Do you have your medical? Just so you don't have another hurdle to your training. If you don't now maybe a good time to see if you can get it.
 
saracelica said:
Do you have your medical? Just so you don't have another hurdle to your training. If you don't now maybe a good time to see if you can get it.
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Yah I knocked that out before I sunk any money at all. Wasn't worried about it but better safe than sorry.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may work for a business and pleasure policy, but for a commercial policy, it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. The instructor must become an employee of or contractor to the FBO, there's paperwork, standardization/check-out rides, etc, and that's all time and money for the FBO. Of course, since the instructor is now gaining benefit from the FBO, and the FBO is sharing some of the instructor's costs and risks, the instructor is going to have to share some of the instructional fee with the FBO, and I'm guessing that the OP's instructors unwillingness to do that is the main barrier to a solution.
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Assuming the business provides coverage for contractor CFIs. I know of several that do not.
 
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