First Helo Lesson

[Gerhardt]

Geico, here are a couple of things I want to pass along:

I was frustrated that it took me so long to get hovering down. My first CFI said that he gets a lot of heavy metal pilots who think they can do anything. After their second lesson they say "this is stupid!" and he never sees them again. No matter how good you are at flying airplanes, these aren't airplanes. It takes most people several hours to be able to hold a hover.

I think I was around the 8 hour mark. I couldn't hold it within the confines of a football field. And then I could. It was like someone had flipped a switch.

Your CFI will yell. He has to. Because everything goes so much quicker than in an airplane.

If you don't have a good set of ANR headsets yet, and he doesn't have them (he should)...get a good set. If you have a good set for airplanes and want to keep using those, they sell converters so you can use them in helicopters.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Gecko, there are plenty of experimental helicopters out there. Some I believe even qualify as ultralights. Figure out which one of the experimental whirlybirds you want, then figure out training.

Two words that should never be used together "experimental helicopter".

 

[Ted]

Two words that should never be used together "experimental helicopter".

I agree fully, but this is Gecko.

 

[Gerhardt]

I agree fully, but this is Gecko.

What do you think, send him up in a Mosquito?

The engine on my Stihl trimmer makes more noise.

 

[Everskyward]

Someone locally fatally wrecked the Enstrom one of the places here uses for training this week at KEIK, so I'm guessing the price is going up around here soon. Last time that happened the local heliwhopper folks folded Business A and did the bankruptcy car wash and started Buisness B.

Just an outsiders perspective on our local scene. I think we're actually up to Business D or E since I started flying. Same hangar at BJC. Different names.

Happens to fixed wing schools too, don't get me wrong... Just seems to be a faster cycle (no pun intended) for the helo kids.

Back in my other life I learned in an Enstrom, actually a series of them, because at least two of them were damaged in fender-bender type accidents. The company also went through a few iterations but I think things stabilized when the owner moved it up to Steamboat. That was right after 9/11 and I think they are still around.

 

[Luvrv8]

If you are going to look at a R22 to own educate yourself on the 12 year inspection, TBO overhauls and how many overhauls mounts and booms can go through. We have had customers buy them at a great deal only to be told the 12 year is due.

 

[Geico266]

If you are going to look at a R22 to own educate yourself on the 12 year inspection, TBO overhauls and how many overhauls mounts and booms can go through. We have had customers buy them at a great deal only to be told the 12 year is due.

From what I understand the 12 year doesn't apply unless you operate it commercially. You do need to replace main & tail rotors at 12 years, for $20K, but the other inspections are not mandatory for private use. As long other components are not timed out and it passes the annual inspections you have an airworthy bird.

 

[RalphInCA]

27 inputs per second to hold it in a hover?

I'm in.

 

[Geico266]

I did my first hover today. I am up to 1.8 hours, 3rd lesson, new instructor. Lots to learn, but I did keep it stable, then moved to the left back to the center line as I was drifting slightly to the right. They really can fly sideways! The physics of flying a helo is truly amazing. My learning curve is steep, but I actually had the light come on today and it is starting to all make sense.

 

[Geico266]

27 inputs per second to hold it in a hover?

I'm in.

I'm not so sure about that. The more you move stuff the more you have to correct. Inputs are very small. Just think about moving the cyclic and it responds. The hardest thing for me to do right now is relax!

 

[Luvrv8]

From what I understand the 12 year doesn't apply unless you operate it commercially. You do need to replace main & tail rotors at 12 years, for $20K, but the other inspections are not mandatory for private use. As long other components are not timed out and it passes the annual inspections you have an airworthy bird.

My boss is the certified Robinson guy not me. But we have done a few 12 years on the 22's that are not flown for schools or commercially. He has told me a 12 year is mandatory as per the maintance manual. I have not seen it in black and white but have helped do too many not to believe it. It's not a complete rebuild but it does have a lot to it.

A side note, a school R22 he takes care of times out in under 3 years faithfully.

 

[Ted]

Gecko, don't tell me you're actually considering a certified aircraft, even if it is a helicopter!

 

[RotorAndWing]

From what I understand the 12 year doesn't apply unless you operate it commercially. You do need to replace main & tail rotors at 12 years, for $20K, but the other inspections are not mandatory for private use. As long other components are not timed out and it passes the annual inspections you have an airworthy bird.

Mostly myth. Better get with someone well versed in Robinson maintenance.

 

[Gerhardt]

Geico: I don't get it. I thought rudders were to move the helicopter's nose to the left or right?

CFI: They're pedals, not rudders. And that's what they do.

Geico: But when I step on one the helicopter turns, but it also rises. I step on the other it turns the other way, and we go down. You're a horrible CFI.

CFI: Not too smart either. What was I thinking taking you on for a student?

Geico: And you said this stick in my left hand, the collector, makes us go up. But when I pull up it also turns the aircraft. You're sure you've flown one of these before?

CFI: It's a collective. And yes, you need to counter the turn by using the pedals.

Geico: Now, this thing between my knees...no the other thing...you said it moves us in any direction from forward, backward, sideways...but dammit, when I push forward we also go down. We're supposed to go forward, we go down. We're supposed to turn, we go down. We're supposed to go down, we turn. I think maybe you have a broken bird.

CFI: *looking at avatar, mumbling* Yeah, there's a broken bird, alright.

 

[Geico266]

Geico: I don't get it. I thought rudders were to move the helicopter's nose to the left or right?

CFI: They're pedals, not rudders. And that's what they do.

Geico: But when I step on one the helicopter turns, but it also rises. I step on the other it turns the other way, and we go down. You're a horrible CFI.

CFI: Not too smart either. What was I thinking taking you on for a student?

Geico: And you said this stick in my left hand, the collector, makes us go up. But when I pull up it also turns the aircraft. You're sure you've flown one of these before?

CFI: It's a collective. And yes, you need to counter the turn by using the pedals.

Geico: Now, this thing between my knees...no the other thing...you said it moves us in any direction from forward, backward, sideways...but dammit, when I push forward we also go down. We're supposed to go forward, we go down. We're supposed to turn, we go down. We're supposed to go down, we turn. I think maybe you have a broken bird.

CFI: *looking at avatar, mumbling* Yeah, there's a broken bird, alright.

Seriously! Did you have a recorder in the Hughes???

 

[Geico266]

Gecko, don't tell me you're actually considering a certified aircraft, even if it is a helicopter!

Helicopters are not aircraft.

Gonna look at them all. There are a ton of RV's to make them mainstream aviation any more. Helos are a different story, there just are not that many of them to choose from. Rotorway and Safari and the ones that come to the top of the heap.

 

[Geico266]

Mostly myth. Better get with someone well versed in Robinson maintenance.

I was talking to a well versed Robinson pilot guy. Of course the service centers (and Robinson) are going tell owners to have everything rebuilt without needing it.

I don't know for sure, but there are several people I have talked to that confirm this.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I was talking to a well versed Robinson pilot guy. Of course the service centers (and Robinson) are going tell owners to have everything rebuilt without needing it.

I don't know for sure, but there are several people I have talked to that confirm this.

More than one person has bought a R22 (or 44) thinking they didn't have to comply with inspections "if flown part 91" only to have their bubbles burst.

Better get the maintenance manual out and do some reading.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Helicopters are not aircraft.

Gonna look at them all. There are a ton of RV's to make them mainstream aviation any more. Helos are a different story, there just are not that many of them to choose from. Rotorway and Safari and the ones that come to the top of the heap.

Rotorway has their problems with engines as well as the belt driven tail rotor. Safari has it's problems with tail rotors and blade tracking issues.

 

[Luvrv8]

More than one person has bought a R22 (or 44) thinking they didn't have to comply with inspections "if flown part 91" only to have their bubbles burst.

Better get the maintenance manual out and do some reading.

I have to agree, I have seen the boss have to tell a few of them this. I hate seeing grown men crying.

Jeff Dunham has a Rotorway, he told me the range was a joke, it's a pattern bird.

 

[Ted]

Helicopters are not aircraft.

Yes they are. They aren't airplanes, but they are aircraft.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Geico266]

More than one person has bought a R22 (or 44) thinking they didn't have to comply with inspections "if flown part 91" only to have their bubbles burst.

Better get the maintenance manual out and do some reading.

I have to agree, I have seen the boss have to tell a few of them this. I hate seeing grown men crying.

Remember, you work at a service center. Certainly, not unbiased.

Duly noted. I appreciate the warning.

Why would anyone buy a Robinson over a Hughes then? Certainly does not make financial sense to buy a helo that is trash after 2200 hours or 12 years. Gotta love planned obsolescence.

 

[Geico266]

Rotorway has their problems with engines as well as the belt driven tail rotor. Safari has it's problems with tail rotors and blade tracking issues.

All aircraft have had issues. That is why ADs & SBs are issued.

 

[jaybee]

From what I understand the 12 year doesn't apply unless you operate it commercially.

Correct, operation under 135 would necessitate more.

You do need to replace main & tail rotors at 12 years, for $20K, but the other inspections are not mandatory for private use.

Sort of correct, see below.

As long other components are not timed out and it passes the annual inspections you have an airworthy bird.

Correct

Page 3.13 has the FAA signed and approved list of life limited parts. As you can see, as you said, only the main and tail rotor blades have a 12 year limit.

So in summation as long as -
Minimum requirements are met:

1. Current annual inspection.
2. All AD's in compliance.
3. All inspections and replacement parts listed in the Airworthiness Limitations section of the maintenance manual are complied with.

- then you have an airworthy aircraft that can be operated under Part 91.

Precedence here.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Duly noted. I appreciate the warning.

Why would anyone buy a Robinson over a Hughes then? Certainly does not make financial sense to buy a helo that is trash after 2200 hours or 12 years. Gotta love planned obsolescence.

Hughes doesn't build helicopters anymore, they are now Schweizer (which is Sikorsky).

Parts support use to be abysmal when Schweizer was running the show. Also the price of parts was staggering.

The 269's are great training helicopters as well as personal ships, but they are not maintenance friendly. They require special tooling, and a host of inspections from 25, 50, 75, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 and a 1200 hour inspection, as well as a 24 month inspection.

Robinson is the easier to maintain (helicopter speaking). It requires less maintenance per hour of flight, has great factory support.

There is a reason for the "planned obsolescence" as these machines are many moving parts under high stress loads. Both the 269 and the Robinsons are filled with time limited components, when they time out it's into the trash they go, and for a good reason.

Don't get me wrong, there are people out there flying these machines with minimal maintenance. Would I get in one? No way Jose!

From an owner standpoint, you are better off owning a Robinson. Follow the maintenance manual, put the proper reserves away and dollar per hour it will be the cheaper option.

My personal second best choice would be an Enstrom. I've had 2 of them and they are great flying helicopters, fairly easy to work on and the factory supports them.

 

[RotorAndWing]

All aircraft have had issues. That is why ADs & SBs are issued.

The Rotorway engine issues are notorious. Ask the ones that operate them.

As far as Safari, they are still having issues with tail rotor reliability, and also having problems in blade tracking.

Personally, after flying, teaching, owning and maintaining helicopters, there is not enough money in the world to get me in an experimental helicopter.

 

[Geico266]

The Rotorway engine issues are notorious. Ask the ones that operate them.

As far as Safari, they are still having issues with tail rotor reliability, and also having problems in blade tracking.

Personally, after flying, teaching, owning and maintaining helicopters, there is not enough money in the world to get me in an experimental helicopter.

I'm not a fan of the engines in Rotorway.

There was another Safari that crashed (fatal) in Conroe, TX due to tail rotor issue. May have come in contact with something though. They have issued a revised titanium blade.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Correct, operation under 135 would necessitate more.



Sort of correct, see below.



Correct

Page 3.13 has the FAA signed and approved list of life limited parts. As you can see, as you said, only the main and tail rotor blades have a 12 year limit.

So in summation as long as -
Minimum requirements are met:

1. Current annual inspection.
2. All AD's in compliance.
3. All inspections and replacement parts listed in the Airworthiness Limitations section of the maintenance manual are complied with.

- then you have an airworthy aircraft that can be operated under Part 91.

Precedence here.

That's a Pollyanna approach to operating a Robinson.

Take the time and go to a service center, sit down with them and discuss the ins and outs of owning and maintaining (as well as insuring) these machines.

As previously stated, following their maintenance program, putting away the proper reserves and the Robinson will be the cheapest to operate as well as the more maintenance friendly.

 

[Geico266]

That's a Pollyanna approach to operating a Robinson.

Take the time and go to a service center, sit down with them and discuss the ins and outs of owning and maintaining (as well as insuring) these machines.

As previously stated, following their maintenance program, putting away the proper reserves and the Robinson will be the cheapest to operate as well as the more maintenance friendly.

What makes no sense is the 12 year time limit. Say you buy a new one, fly it for 50 hours a year. At 600 hours you have to trash the blades, and the main & rotor transmission, and inspect the bird as if it had 2200 hours on it? The same components that are capable of going 2200 hours? That is just plain silly. Sure, service centers would be all over that! Just another reason why certified aircraft suck!

In fact, a lot of owners sell the "calendar timed out" parts to owners that actually have timed out parts so they can squeak another couple hundred hours out of them.

So you can't leave the 600 hour rotors on helo "A", but remove them and you can install them on helo "B". YEP! That would makes perfect sense to the FAA.

The facts are (from what I have read, and what is posted here) you don't need to do the 12 year inspection on the R-22 if you are flying it privately. That makes sense.

 

[RotorAndWing]

What makes no sense is the 12 year time limit. Say you buy a new one, fly it for 50 hours a year. At 600 hours you have to trash the blades, and the main & rotor transmission that are capable of going 2200 hours? That is just plain silly. Sure, service centers would be all over that! That is why certified aircraft suck!

Frank Robinson is an aircraft engineer ( a brilliant one) and he has one of the best engineering departments in helicopters. Those time frames and life limits are developed for a reason, based upon engineering. My life depends upon the reliability of those components.

The callous will say they do it to make money. Actually they do it for liability sake. Frank does not need helicopters falling out of the sky for shoddy engineering.

Bottom line, if the Robinson is flown and maintained to factory specs, it's an extremely reliable and cost effective helicopter. Do it any other way and you are becoming a test pilot.

 

[flhrci]

Geico: I don't get it. I thought rudders were to move the helicopter's nose to the left or right?

CFI: They're pedals, not rudders. And that's what they do.

Geico: But when I step on one the helicopter turns, but it also rises. I step on the other it turns the other way, and we go down. You're a horrible CFI.

CFI: Not too smart either. What was I thinking taking you on for a student?

Geico: And you said this stick in my left hand, the collector, makes us go up. But when I pull up it also turns the aircraft. You're sure you've flown one of these before?

CFI: It's a collective. And yes, you need to counter the turn by using the pedals.

Geico: Now, this thing between my knees...no the other thing...you said it moves us in any direction from forward, backward, sideways...but dammit, when I push forward we also go down. We're supposed to go forward, we go down. We're supposed to turn, we go down. We're supposed to go down, we turn. I think maybe you have a broken bird.

CFI: *looking at avatar, mumbling* Yeah, there's a broken bird, alright.

The new web series: "As the helicopter turns,err, goes down!" Starring Geico!

 

[Geico266]

The new web series: "As the helicopter turns,err, goes down!" Starring Geico!

A new chapter! "Geico Autorotates"

 

[Geico266]

Frank Robinson is an aircraft engineer ( a brilliant one) and he has one of the best engineering departments in helicopters. Those time frames and life limits are developed for a reason, based upon engineering. My life depends upon the reliability of those components.

The callous will say they do it to make money. Actually they do it for liability sake. Frank does not need helicopters falling out of the sky for shoddy engineering.

Bottom line, if the Robinson is flown and maintained to factory specs, it's an extremely reliable and cost effective helicopter. Do it any other way and you are becoming a test pilot.

Of course! Everything you said is true, but it makes zero sense in my example to sell "calendar timed out" parts (that you cannot use on the helo A) to helo B and now suddenly, magically, those parts can be used again.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Of course! Everything you said is true, but it makes zero sense in my example to sell "calendar timed out" parts (that you cannot use on the helo A) to helo B and now suddenly, magically, those parts can be used again.

How is that? When the part is removed a card is filled out to show both total time in service and calendar time in service. How would a A&P (or service center) install a timed out component a legally sign it off?

 

[jaybee]

That's a Pollyanna approach to operating a Robinson.

No, that is the letter of the law.

Take the time and go to a service center, sit down with them and discuss the ins and outs of owning and maintaining (as well as insuring) these machines.

I'm a licensed A&P that has been to Robinson's Maintenance course and have been doing Robinson maintenance for a little while now...

As previously stated, following their maintenance program, putting away the proper reserves and the Robinson will be the cheapest to operate as well as the more maintenance friendly.

Where did I say to not follow the maintenance manual? In fact, what I said was to to follow the maintenance manual. The blades are the only calendar limited items. Where did I ever say to not replace timed-out items, not do preventative maintenance, or annual inspections. Oh, that's right I didn't.

Since you are not able to admit that you were not correct on the legal way to comply with a 12 year inspection you resort to ridicule and conjecture ? How sad... and pathetic.

 

[Gerhardt]

If you're flying Robinson, go to the factory course. It was originally designed for CFIs but maybe 15 years ago was expanded really for everyone flying a Robinson. The cost of the course is dirt cheap and is an incredible bargain. I suspect they priced it that way to get as many people as possible to attend. It's certainly not a money-maker for them.

You'll spend a lot of time in class going over safety and maintenance. You'll watch some videos of accidents and hear some first-hand accounts. At least one of the videos will make you cringe. You'll tour the factory and I promise you that you will be amazed at how clean it is. You'll learn why they make most parts in-house. The last day you'll get an hour or so of flight time in with an incredible CFI. Mine showed me how to auto-rotate backward. I'd never even heard of such a thing until then. Oh, and they give you a cool blue Robinson coffee mug to take home.

 

[Geico266]

How much are blades?

R-22 $20K
R-44 $60K
R-66 TBD


Rough numbers.

 

[Geico266]

No, that is the letter of the law.



I'm a licensed A&P that has been to Robinson's Maintenance course and have been doing Robinson maintenance for a little while now...



Where did I say to not follow the maintenance manual? In fact, what I said was to to follow the maintenance manual. The blades are the only calendar limited items. Where did I ever say to not replace timed-out items, not do preventative maintenance, or annual inspections. Oh, that's right I didn't.

Since you are not able to admit that you were not correct on the legal way to comply with a 12 year inspection you resort to ridicule and conjecture ? How sad... and pathetic.

He does that a lot here.

 

[Gerhardt]

Just for fun, read up on insurance for Robbies. It's incredibly expensive through most insurers. And the one who insures the most, Pathfinder, has some incredible clauses in their policies.

 

[Geico266]

If you're flying Robinson, go to the factory course. It was originally designed for CFIs but maybe 15 years ago was expanded really for everyone flying a Robinson. The cost of the course is dirt cheap and is an incredible bargain. I suspect they priced it that way to get as many people as possible to attend. It's certainly not a money-maker for them.

You'll spend a lot of time in class going over safety and maintenance. You'll watch some videos of accidents and hear some first-hand accounts. At least one of the videos will make you cringe. You'll tour the factory and I promise you that you will be amazed at how clean it is. You'll learn why they make most parts in-house. The last day you'll get an hour or so of flight time in with an incredible CFI. Mine showed me how to auto-rotate backward. I'd never even heard of such a thing until then. Oh, and they give you a cool blue Robinson coffee mug to take home.

Excellent suggestion. I will do that when the time comes. Should help with insurance also.