First annual

midcap said:
What do prebuys on a single engine piston run? About the same as an annual?
Click to expand...

Folks have diffrent ideas of a prebuy, for mine it's normally a little more than the flat rate annual price.
 
James331 said:
Folks have diffrent ideas of a prebuy, for mine it's normally a little more than the flat rate annual price.
Click to expand...

that makes a lot of sense. I mean wouldn't you want to know if somthing is going to bite you in the butt before you drop that much coin?
 
midcap said:
How did they know those 3 were bad? compression checks were low?
Click to expand...

gov98 said:
How was it that 3 cylinders need replacement?
Click to expand...

They pulled one cylinder to replace a heli coil that was damaged. The engine shop inspected the cylinder after it was pulled and said "Wait... there's a crack in the exhaust port." They checked the other 3 cylinders. 2 of them had cracks that were working their way towards the combustion chamber too. Mechanic thinks they were bad repair jobs when the engine was overhauled a number of years ago. And I got stuck with it. Yay. Mechanic showed me the areas of the engine... and while I know a bit about auto mechanics and I don't know much about aviation mechanics.... I know what a propagating crack looks like. And it no looka gooda.
 
ircphoenix said:
They pulled one cylinder to replace a heli coil that was damaged. The engine shop inspected the cylinder after it was pulled and said "Wait... there's a crack in the exhaust port." They checked the other 3 cylinders. 2 of them had cracks that were working their way towards the combustion chamber too. Mechanic thinks they were bad repair jobs when the engine was overhauled a number of years ago. And I got stuck with it. Yay. Mechanic showed me the areas of the engine... and while I know a bit about auto mechanics and I don't know much about aviation mechanics.... I know what a propagating crack looks like. And it no looka gooda.
Click to expand...

Yuck... Sorry man
 
ircphoenix said:
They pulled one cylinder to replace a heli coil that was damaged. The engine shop inspected the cylinder after it was pulled and said "Wait... there's a crack in the exhaust port." They checked the other 3 cylinders. 2 of them had cracks that were working their way towards the combustion chamber too. Mechanic thinks they were bad repair jobs when the engine was overhauled a number of years ago. And I got stuck with it. Yay. Mechanic showed me the areas of the engine... and while I know a bit about auto mechanics and I don't know much about aviation mechanics.... I know what a propagating crack looks like. And it no looka gooda.
Click to expand...
How much below market was the price to start with?
If that was the only issue? replace 4 cylinders and fly for many years with out problems.
 
Tom-D said:
How much below market was the price to start with?
If that was the only issue? replace 4 cylinders and fly for many years with out problems.
Click to expand...

How much below market was the price to start with? On an apparently 325 SMOH 1970 Cherokee with a flawless pre-inspection by an independent mechanic equipped with a GNS 530? In California? It was market. Maybe even a touch over.

That wasn't the only issue. That was the biggest single issue.
 
ircphoenix said:
How much below market was the price to start with? On an apparently 325 SMOH 1970 Cherokee with a flawless pre-inspection by an independent mechanic equipped with a GNS 530? In California? It was market. Maybe even a touch over.

That wasn't the only issue. That was the biggest single issue.
Click to expand...

Ouch, Makes me want to buy a timed out airplane and repower.
 
ircphoenix said:
How much below market was the price to start with? On an apparently 325 SMOH 1970 Cherokee with a flawless pre-inspection by an independent mechanic equipped with a GNS 530? In California? It was market. Maybe even a touch over.

That wasn't the only issue. That was the biggest single issue.
Click to expand...
Then walk.. unless the seller will off set the price below market to discount the repairs needed to bring it up to market value.
And remember the only function of a pre-buy is to tell the buyer if the asking price is what the aircraft is worth. I've seen aircraft in horrible condition worth every penny of the asking price.
 
Tom-D said:
Then walk.. unless the seller will off set the price below market to discount the repairs needed to bring it up to market value.
And remember the only function of a pre-buy is to tell the buyer if the asking price is what the aircraft is worth. I've seen aircraft in horrible condition worth every penny of the asking price.
Click to expand...
Plane already belongs to me. Kinda hard to make him pay for it now. Lol
 
So for all of those this brings back awful memories for... what advice would you give yourself at the beginning of buying process to better avoid these issues? Is it avoidable or just inevitable?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So for all of those this brings back awful memories for... what advice would you give yourself at the beginning of buying process to better avoid these issues? Is it avoidable or just inevitable?
Click to expand...

The best advice I could give is to realize that you're not buying a new airplane, you're buying a project that might fly. Even brand new airplanes have problems. Add 50 or so years of wear, tear, and neglect to that and you can see how the headaches start. Educating yourself on the airframe and engine you're after and having some general mechanical experience and attention to detail for paperwork (an understanding of what paperwork should be there, a lot of pilots and mechanics don't seem to know) will help reduce the amount of surprises you have after the purchase.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So for all of those this brings back awful memories for... what advice would you give yourself at the beginning of buying process to better avoid these issues? Is it avoidable or just inevitable?
Click to expand...

What monstrd (sp?) said was good. Besides that, try not to take your airplane to a shop that works on turbines. They seem to have a completely different idea of what a "reasonable cost" is. Get an estimate, and follow up on them as the work progresses. If it looks like it's taking too long, ask him what the problem is and ask them for a projected estimate.

I didn't do that, and an estimated $3k annual turned into $10k. That one very nearly came to either blows or a court fight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bnt83 said:
I just found these jewels on my bird... What's another $550 out the window? (just for the cast cylinders, not assemblies).


Click to expand...
What did part number 16 look like. they usually wear and allow the housing to twist when the brakes are applied, cracking the carrier like you show.
 
I realize a lot of folks here are against Mike B and Savvy Maintenance. But I've used Savvy on 3 pre-buys. Cost - 700 each. So I spent $2100 total. First was my SR20 - we did the pre-buy and "turned" it into an annual. Seller paid for most squawks and I paid for the annual. The annual was 1500 + the 700 (may be 750). Plane 3 (SR22) about the same except my contract said "seller pays ALL squawks" as he stated it was perfect. I spent 700 to Savvy and 1800 for the pre-buy (annual just completed)

Plane 2 (SR22) spent 700 on Savvy and about 500 moving the plane. This plane had JUST CAME out of annual and was "being sold with a fresh annual" so a pre-buy was not necessary (laugh out loud). I had it flown from San Diego to another field (I think Wayne but not sure). We were expecting a quick in and out because the annual was done by a well know Cirrus guy down there. Turns out there was a lot of corrosion (and something else) wrong with the motor and we needed a top overhaul and possibly an entire overhaul. Of course the seller wasn't interested so I walked.

So was it worth spending the extra money to have an experienced company help you? Well, Savvy saved me a boat load of cash on a fresh annualized plane that would have cost me a fortune. They've also helped me on my annuals and my Cirrus annual that just finished was 2100 bucks all-in.

Savvy or not I would NEVER buy a plane without using a mechanic that has NEVER touched the airplane in question.
 
My mechanic spent 4 hours going over the plane. He pulled the plugs, checked compression, scoped the cylinders... and I still got nailed with 3 cylinders for 900 bucks each. He had never touched the plane, been to this airport, or known the mechanic.

I did my due diligence and still got screwed. There are no guarantees when you're buying a 40 year old plane.
 
Tom-D said:
What did part number 16 look like. they usually wear and allow the housing to twist when the brakes are applied, cracking the carrier like you show.
Click to expand...

The bushing in the torque plate wear first? It looks like you can buy just the bushings and replace them. The have a total of about 1800 hours on them and seem rather fit & normal. I remember other family members flying this airplane and abusing the brakes more than once. I hardly use them.
 
Tom-D said:
OR

Buy the lowest time clean airframe with high time engine, yuck radios, bad paint, and build the aircraft you want.
Click to expand...
AND/OR

Buy a well-built experimental aircraft. That's what we did three years ago, and, we have built our dream plane for (relative) peanuts.

Example:

The last quote I got for a modern panel in our Piper Pathfinder was $50K, and that was not top of the line stuff.

We sold the plane for $50K, bought an RV-8A, and put a more sophisticated panel in it for $11K. That's the delta between certified and experimental.
 
Stephanie B said:
Either way, be ready to fork over AMUs and fly the BOHICA flag. :p
Click to expand...
Jay Honeck said:
AND/OR

Buy a well-built experimental aircraft. That's what we did three years ago, and, we have built our dream plane for (relative) peanuts.

Example:

The last quote I got for a modern panel in our Piper Pathfinder was $50K, and that was not top of the line stuff.

We sold the plane for $50K, bought an RV-8A, and put a more sophisticated panel in it for $11K. That's the delta between certified and experimental.
Click to expand...
When you figure out the cost of a KIT is usually the cost of a good but not perfect certified aircraft, and most of the components in the kit are the equipment that is used to build or upgrade certified aircraft, you'll find in the long run the cost of flying is still way above the young folks that want to start ownership.
 
Tom-D said:
When you figure out the cost of a KIT is usually the cost of a good but not perfect certified aircraft, and most of the components in the kit are the equipment that is used to build or upgrade certified aircraft, you'll find in the long run the cost of flying is still way above the young folks that want to start ownership.
Click to expand...
That is wholly dependent on the plane. For high performance 2, 4, or 6 seaters, yup, it's gonna cost.

However, it is still quite possible to own and fly an Ercoupe or C-150 for less than the cost of a new Harley. It's all about choices.
 
Tom-D said:
What did part number 16 look like. they usually wear and allow the housing to twist when the brakes are applied, cracking the carrier like you show.
Click to expand...


The new cast magnesium wheel cylinders should be here tomorrow, now to install the stop bolt/pin deals (figure #4) without cracking the new parts <sheepish look>
 
Based on everything I have read here, I have decided it isn't worth buying. There are too many unknowns. I can rent a plane from a couple of different airports..yeah it sucks that I don't always get the plane when I want but the fact is I know what my rate is every time. I can't afford some new Cesna, and anything older is going to have problems. So I guess renting is best for me.
 
steviedeviant said:
Based on everything I have read here, I have decided it isn't worth buying. There are too many unknowns. I can rent a plane from a couple of different airports..yeah it sucks that I don't always get the plane when I want but the fact is I know what my rate is every time. I can't afford some new Cesna, and anything older is going to have problems. So I guess renting is best for me.
Click to expand...

It sucks that the conversation dissuaded you... but there is a very real and tangible benefit to NOT buying. Honestly, had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought my plane. The money I spent on the plane and the repairs would have bought me 340 hours renting a nicely equipped 172SP with WAAS GPS and autopilot. My plane does not have an autopilot. Trims nicely, but I can certainly see the appeal of an autopilot for any trips longer than an hour. And if you figure 10 hours a month flying, the delta between renting and owning for me is about 10 dollars an hour in FAVOR of renting. The number skews towards ownership as you get more hours, but the overall cost goes up too.

There's a certain romance that appeals to us when it comes to flying a plane... but there's a very harsh reality that comes into play that many are unprepared for when it comes to buying a plane, despite all of the apparent research and preparation that goes in to making a seemingly wise purchase.
 
Last edited:
ircphoenix said:
It sucks that the conversation dissuaded you... but there is a very real and tangible benefit to NOT buying. Honestly, had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought my plane. The money I spent on the plane and the repairs would have bought me 340 hours renting a nicely equipped 172SP with WAAS GPS and autopilot. My plane does not have an autopilot. Trims nicely, but I can certainly see the appeal of an autopilot for any trips longer than an hour. And if you figure 10 hours a month flying, the delta between renting and owning for me is about 10 dollars an hour in FAVOR of renting. The number skews towards ownership as you get more hours, but the overall cost goes up too.

There's a certain romance that appeals to us when it comes to flying a plane... but there's a very harsh reality that comes into play that many are unprepared for when it comes to buying a plane, despite all of the apparent research and preparation that goes in to making a seemingly wise purchase.
Click to expand...

I don't know much, since I am a noob but it also seems like ownership is mission driven.
If all I wanted to do was fly around for a few hours, $100 hamburger runs etc then I wouldn't even be considering buying.
Since my goal is to use the plane for XC flights, then buying makes sense. From what I have been learning so far, if you go into buying a plane you need to be ready and comfortable with spending the money on a new engine at the very least. That way you are preparing for the worst.
 
Exactly, real XC are expensive if you rent.
Assume 3 weeks of XC trips,
21 days x min 3 hrs/day x $140/hr = $8820, ownership starts to make sense.
 
teejayevans said:
Exactly, real XC are expensive if you rent.
Assume 3 weeks of XC trips,
21 days x min 3 hrs/day x $140/hr = $8820, ownership starts to make sense.
Click to expand...

putting it into real numbers drives the point home doesn't it.

Then sprinkle in the "long weekend trip" here and there on top of that.
 
FWIW, a quick check of the past 10 months:
Plane ownership cost me $1.21/nm, or $126/hr, that's all in:fuel, hangar, maintenance, insurance, subscriptions, training...everything but the plane itself.
 
teejayevans said:
FWIW, a quick check of the past 10 months:
Plane ownership cost me $1.21/nm, or $126/hr, that's all in:fuel, hangar, maintenance, insurance, subscriptions, training...everything but the plane itself.
Click to expand...

How many hours over that 10 months?
 
teejayevans said:
FWIW, a quick check of the past 10 months:
Plane ownership cost me $1.21/nm, or $126/hr, that's all in:fuel, hangar, maintenance, insurance, subscriptions, training...everything but the plane itself.
Click to expand...

Old flight school chartered a Cessna 303 for $2/mile, about 16 years ago.
 
Thanks for the response. I can appreciate that you need at least ten hours a month to even consider it. As of now, I know that I will not get more time than that and I had always heard that you need at least a 100 hours a year to consider buying...but it sounds like you really need a lot more to really make a difference. I am not being cheap here, I just think for me renting is going to be the best option...I really, in a way, hate that because I had considered buying and just the convenience of knowing it is yours and you can use it anytime. Thanks for the response.


ircphoenix said:
It sucks that the conversation dissuaded you... but there is a very real and tangible benefit to NOT buying. Honestly, had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought my plane. The money I spent on the plane and the repairs would have bought me 340 hours renting a nicely equipped 172SP with WAAS GPS and autopilot. My plane does not have an autopilot. Trims nicely, but I can certainly see the appeal of an autopilot for any trips longer than an hour. And if you figure 10 hours a month flying, the delta between renting and owning for me is about 10 dollars an hour in FAVOR of renting. The number skews towards ownership as you get more hours, but the overall cost goes up too.

There's a certain romance that appeals to us when it comes to flying a plane... but there's a very harsh reality that comes into play that many are unprepared for when it comes to buying a plane, despite all of the apparent research and preparation that goes in to making a seemingly wise purchase.
Click to expand...
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top