First Annual

[dmccormack]

I pulled all the inspection covers, the cowling, and everything else i could off the Chief the last few days. This afternoon John called and said his hangar was open for my airplane (John is the local A&P on the field at Waynesburg).

Once we got it all set up he decided to do compression check first to see how this old engine was holding up.

I watched as each of four cylinders read 70 or 71 out of 80.



So far so good!!

 

[COFlyBoy]

I pulled all the inspection covers, the cowling, and everything else i could off the Chief the last few days. This afternoon John called and said his hangar was open for my airplane (John is the local A&P on the field at Waynesburg).

Once we got it all set up he decided to do compression check first to see how this old engine was holding up.

I watched as each of four cylinders read 70 or 71 out of 80.



So far so good!!

I guess that's why you can start it by hand. The Cherokee was mostly 79s.

How long do you think the whole annual will take? We are just about done with the annual on the Cherokee 6. I've been working every Saturday since the end of August. The last thing we need is the IFR pitot/static and transponder check (scheduled for Wednesday). We had to have some instruments overhauled, pulled a leaky gas tank, replaced a gas gauge, replaced the impulse coupling and overhauled the starter.

I love working on planes. They're so much easier than cars.

I hope your annual only takes a weekend.

 

[dmccormack]

Oh my goodness!! That long???

Mine should be done tomorrow afternoon or Tuesday. I'm replacing the Windcsreen so that will take a few days, but LP Aero is just up the road.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Oh my goodness!! That long???

Mine should be done tomorrow afternoon or Tuesday. I'm replacing the Windcsreen so that will take a few days, but LP Aero is just up the road.

Mostly just scheduling issues and waiting for parts/overhauls to come in. And we didn't find out the starter was bad until my Dad was taxiing back after doing the engine checks at the A&Ps hangar, so that added another week.

The Chief is awesome. I'd love to have one just for bombing around in. Our A&P was telling us that on the Cubs the annual is a one day affair. You take all the plates off and taxi past his hangar and he'll sign-off :wink2:.

 

[dmccormack]

Mostly just scheduling issues and waiting for parts/overhauls to come in. And we didn't find out the starter was bad until my Dad was taxiing back after doing the engine checks at the A&Ps hangar, so that added another week.

The Chief is awesome. I'd love to have one just for bombing around in. Our A&P was telling us that on the Cubs the annual is a one day affair. You take all the plates off and taxi past his hangar and he'll sign-off :wink2:.

That's excellent -- I'll ask my A&P if that'll work.

I've helped owners with more complicated airplanes through annuals and know how quickly the finds can add up.

I'm heading to the airport this morning to take the wing root covers off and the floor boards out.

Next will be windshield removal -- fun.

At least with the new plexi up front I'll be able to see towers and other interesting stuff -- like the runway.

 

[Tom-D]

Some body is thinking of their annual as the 13th month maintenance period.

the inspection only takes about an hour. If I must look up the ADs and verify the logs have them signed off properly maybe 2 hours at most.

repairing the discrepancies, that's maintenance, not inspection. the maintenance can be signed of by any authorized person, the annual inspection is required to be signed off by a A&P-IA.

 

[dmccormack]

Some body is thinking of their annual as the 13th month maintenance period.

the inspection only takes about an hour. If I must look up the ADs and verify the logs have them signed off properly maybe 2 hours at most.

repairing the discrepancies, that's maintenance, not inspection. the maintenance can be signed of by any authorized person, the annual inspection is required to be signed off by a A&P-IA.

The reality is -- most owners don't open up the airplane and look until the annual. And that's probably good since every time you open or unsnap or remove, you're introducing potential problems.

 

[weirdjim]

Some body is thinking of their annual as the 13th month maintenance period.

the inspection only takes about an hour. If I must look up the ADs and verify the logs have them signed off properly maybe 2 hours at most.

repairing the discrepancies, that's maintenance, not inspection. the maintenance can be signed of by any authorized person, the annual inspection is required to be signed off by a A&P-IA.

I tell people that, don't make a secret of it, and the shops on the field keep telling people that I pencil-whip an annual.

You are correct; inspection is a fairly quick matter, and doing a full logbook/AD verification is not much longer, especially now that the whole thing is a matter of pushing keys on the computer (remember microfiche?).

I stopped doing fixit on OPA and started doing lookit about twenty years ago and can't say I've regretted the decision.

Jim

 

[COFlyBoy]

Some body is thinking of their annual as the 13th month maintenance period.

the inspection only takes about an hour. If I must look up the ADs and verify the logs have them signed off properly maybe 2 hours at most.

repairing the discrepancies, that's maintenance, not inspection. the maintenance can be signed of by any authorized person, the annual inspection is required to be signed off by a A&P-IA.

I guess if I looked at just what was required for the Annual Inspection that would be about right. 2-3 hours to pull all the panels and such. 1-2 hours to do engine checks and wash the engine with the A&P. Invite the IA over for a good solid 15 minute inspection. 2-3 hours to put it back together. Get the books back from the A&P.

We just happened to have a bunch of MX to do also. Some routine: wheel bearings, brakes, oil, air filter. Some deferred: DG overhaul, T&B overhaul, ASI overhaul. Some issues that cropped up just in time for the annual: Fuel gauge that read 15 gal no matter what, leaky right main tank, starter that didn't, and a mag with a crappy impulse coupling.

All that resulted in me missing some of the best flying weather in Colorado.

OTOH, Dan's annual and MX isn't gonna be nearly that bad.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I tell people that, don't make a secret of it, and the shops on the field keep telling people that I pencil-whip an annual.

You are correct; inspection is a fairly quick matter, and doing a full logbook/AD verification is not much longer, especially now that the whole thing is a matter of pushing keys on the computer (remember microfiche?).

I stopped doing fixit on OPA and started doing lookit about twenty years ago and can't say I've regretted the decision.

Jim

What's OPA?

 

[tonycondon]

Other People's Airplanes

 

[Tom-D]

I guess if I looked at just what was required for the Annual Inspection that would be about right.

complying with the manufacturers MM list of inspection items on any CorP aircraft requires about 3 hours, go to the Cessna 100 service manual and look at the list and tell me what would require more time to inspect.


2-3 hours to pull all the panels and such. 1-2 hours to do engine checks and wash the engine with the A&P. Invite the IA over for a good solid 15 minute inspection. 2-3 hours to put it back together. Get the books back from the A&P.

the opening and closing of the aircraft can all be done by the owner, lubrication, cleaning, and repairs are not a portion of the inspection. and the log books never need to be in the custody of the IA, they can bring a list of ADs to the inspection and do the AD verification at the inspection site.

We just happened to have a bunch of MX to do also. Some routine: wheel bearings, brakes, oil, air filter. Some deferred: DG overhaul, T&B overhaul, ASI overhaul. Some issues that cropped up just in time for the annual: Fuel gauge that read 15 gal no matter what, leaky right main tank, starter that didn't, and a mag with a crappy impulse coupling.

All that resulted in me missing some of the best flying weather in Colorado.

OH WELL! that your fault, next year schedule. the annual during bad weather. do it again in FEB and fly all summer /fall without problems.

OTOH, Dan's annual and MX isn't gonna be nearly that bad.

The point being, when you are taking annual, your talking about an inspection, and when you are talking maintenance or upgrades you talking about routine up keep on your aircraft.

 

[dmccormack]

Lots accomplished this morning: Removed old windscreen (not too painful), opened and cleaned inside boot cowling and under floor, wire brushed engine (prep for paint), removed all aluminum seals, covers, etc and repainted, painted first coat of flat black on cabin tubing, touched up panel and yokes (same flat black), removed all non-stainless steel screws (will replace with stainless), worked cowling some more -- not perfectly smooth but good enough.

Whew!

(Pics below)

 

[dmccormack]

The point being, when you are taking annual, your talking about an inspection, and when you are talking maintenance or upgrades you talking about routine up keep on your aircraft.

Right -- but typically (ordinarily, normally) stuff is discovered during the annual that requires maintenance.

Theoretically the inspection and the maintenance should be two separate events. But reality often differs.

 

[Ted]

It all depends on what your mode of operation is, and what your relationship is with the people on the field.

Tom is right in how an annual should be. If I had more time to wrench on the planes I'm in charge of, I would end up doing most of the maintenance myself under the supervision of an A&P, and at annual time simply do an inspection.

We end up doing both at the same time, but I also believe in doing 100-hour inspections. Reason? You can catch items a lot easier before they go and may be aware of things that you know need to get fixed so there's minimum downtime. When I hear about people having their aircraft down for months at a time, it either means something is majorly wrong or they aren't hugely motivated to get it done quickly. I end up flying virtually every weekend, so I make it known to the people who work on my airplane that the plane needs to be airworthy and flyable by the end of the week. They've always managed to do that.

Dan: Glad your first annual is going well so far!

 

[dmccormack]

It all depends on what your mode of operation is, and what your relationship is with the people on the field.

Tom is right in how an annual should be. If I had more time to wrench on the planes I'm in charge of, I would end up doing most of the maintenance myself under the supervision of an A&P, and at annual time simply do an inspection.

We end up doing both at the same time, but I also believe in doing 100-hour inspections. Reason? You can catch items a lot easier before they go and may be aware of things that you know need to get fixed so there's minimum downtime. When I hear about people having their aircraft down for months at a time, it either means something is majorly wrong or they aren't hugely motivated to get it done quickly. I end up flying virtually every weekend, so I make it known to the people who work on my airplane that the plane needs to be airworthy and flyable by the end of the week. They've always managed to do that.

Dan: Glad your first annual is going well so far!

Thanks, Ted.

That's my philosophy as well -- My airplane has been in the shop about once a month since May -- primarily for smaller things (new tires, new bearing covers, brake adjustment, etc.

Nothing major, but enough that my mechanic knows the airplane. I removed all covers, cowlings, etc before the airplane rolled into the shop, and removed floorboards and everything else. So far all John has done is compression check, help with windscreen removal, and prop removal (I asked -- it was the only way to get the nose bowl off for refinishing).

In addition, this is the first year I've had the airplane. as we all know, you find lots you want to fix, improve, or change that first year.

It's all good.

 

[Ted]

In addition, this is the first year I've had the airplane. as we all know, you find lots you want to fix, improve, or change that first year.

Yes, and developing a list in order of priority is nice to have. The first year of having the Aztec there were a lot of "nice-to-have" items that I didn't have a chance to get done because there were a lot of "need-to-have" items that we needed to get taken care of if we wanted the plane to keep flying. Now that it's gotten to the point where the major stuff is taken care of, we're able to work on some of the nice-to-haves.

 

[flyersfan31]

!

I don't have the time to pull inspection panels. I pay people to do that for me. The most useful tool in my toolbox is my credit card. That doesn't make me a bad person, or a bad owner. It would be nice if I knew airplane mx, but I don't. So it goes.

 

[Ted]

!

I don't have the time to pull inspection panels. I pay people to do that for me. The most useful tool in my toolbox is my credit card. That doesn't make me a bad person, or a bad owner. It would be nice if I knew airplane mx, but I don't. So it goes.

Even as a former professional mechanic (albeit automotive) I just dont have the time, so my checkbook is rapidly becoming the best tool in my toolbox. I knew it was bad when I paid someone to work on my truck (the Ford, not the Piper).

 

[dmccormack]

!

I don't have the time to pull inspection panels. I pay people to do that for me. The most useful tool in my toolbox is my credit card. That doesn't make me a bad person, or a bad owner. It would be nice if I knew airplane mx, but I don't. So it goes.

I don't think it makes you a "bad owner."

I think participating in maintenance helps enhance me appreciate all the engineering required to build an airplane, and all the work required to keep it flying.

 

[Ted]

I don't think it makes you a "bad owner."

I think participating in maintenance helps enhance me appreciate all the engineering required to build an airplane, and all the work required to keep it flying.

It's also just satisfying to do the work yourself and then get into the plane and have everything work right, and notice the improvements, or know that things are done well. About a week and a half back Laurie and I lubricated the landing gear, removed and reinstalled the spark plugs for their cleaning, and reinstalled the interior on the 310. Add a few cowls on and off in there.

After everything checked out, hopped in and flew to New Orleans. Purred like a kitten, and the landing gear works great. A good feeling.

 

[Tom-D]

I wonder how long some owners would defer maintenance if there were no 12 month inspection required?

 

[Arbiter419]

It's also just satisfying to do the work yourself and then get into the plane and have everything work right, and notice the improvements, or know that things are done well. About a week and a half back Laurie and I lubricated the landing gear, removed and reinstalled the spark plugs for their cleaning, and reinstalled the interior on the 310. Add a few cowls on and off in there.

After everything checked out, hopped in and flew to New Orleans. Purred like a kitten, and the landing gear works great. A good feeling.

Totally unrelated, but I saw the 310 for the first time on the Could Nine facebook page, I didn't even know you were flying it...is it yours, or do you just fly it for Cloud Nine?

 

[timwinters]

but I also believe in doing 100-hour inspections.

Curious, is the 100 hour the same inspection as the annual on an Aztec like it is in my 182?

I don't do inspections every 100 hours but I won't fly my 182 over 150 hours without having it inspected. I have it signed off as an annual though because there's no reason not to. Same inspection, same cost and if it's logged as an annual I'm good to go for 12 months should I quit flying so much.

 

[Skip Miller]

I wonder how long some owners would defer maintenance if there were no 12 month inspection required?

Some? Until the crash. Others, not so long....

-Skip

 

[dmccormack]

I wonder how long some owners would defer maintenance if there were no 12 month inspection required?

Since there is an annual requirement, periodicity appears to be... annually.

 

[flyersfan31]

Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to be more involved. Unfortunately, I can't be. I do take my plane to a mx shop (shout out here for Skytech in MD - GREAT place) where they are careful, and they are always happy to answer, patiently, as many questions as I can think of, no matter how stupid.

I make myself aware of issues. I ask questions. I look inside. It's the best I can do. They are always happy to take my calls, though, because I never wait on a repair. A stitch in time saves nine. And even lives.

There is a bias I've detected from time to time against owners, such as myself, who don't do their own mx. There was a thread on POA at one point where some pointed comments were made to that effect. I've checked the FARS -- there's no requirement to do your own mx, in fact it is largely proscribed. I'm an OWNER, not a maintainer. I hire people for that. Chrissakes, be glad I'm paying for A&Ps to work on planes.....

 

[taters]

Curious, is the 100 hour the same inspection as the annual on an Aztec like it is in my 182?

I don't do inspections every 100 hours but I won't fly my 182 over 150 hours without having it inspected. I have it signed off as an annual though because there's no reason not to. Same inspection, same cost and if it's logged as an annual I'm good to go for 12 months should I quit flying so much.

The 100 hour is the same scope as an annual by definition , but only requires an A/P. I have an IA do all my 100 hours , and he signs them off as annuals.
Shouldn't matter the type.

 

[Tom-D]

Since there is an annual requirement, periodicity appears to be... annually.

There is no requirement that you have an annual inspection completed.

but you must have the aircraft inspected every 12 months. read 91.409

 

[dmccormack]

There is no requirement that you have an annual inspection completed.

but you must have the aircraft inspected every 12 months. read 91.409

Ahhh geez....

 

[Dr. O]

Yes, it is an annual 'inspection' and that is all the regs require... There is a fella who used to post under the screen name of toecutter who also stated he would do inspections and the necessary logbook entries for a fixed price if the owner had the ship opened up for him...


Human nature being what it is, most folks defer maintenance until the 'annual' since the airplane is opened up anyway - and the checkbook...
The AP&I being human of nature, sees the annual inspection as the doorway to more work for his shop - which is more cash flow <shrug>

We had a hoo haa on the field a few years back where after the inspection the AP&I handed the owner an estimate of many thousands of dollars of needed repairs... The owner refused to do the repairs and demanded his plane back... The AP&I then refused to sign off the inspection... The owner finally stomped in (with a large, scowling brother in law as back up), handed the AP&I a check for the inspection, screwed the cowling back on himself, and flew it away... The AP&I announced to one and all that he had turned the owner in to the FAA for flying an airplane that HE had declared was not airworthy... For a while he was quite vocal about this incident, then he suddenly became very silent... My suspicion is that the FAA saw it as a business dispute, not a regulatory issue...

I do as much mx on the bird as the law and my time will allow and buy the rest.. I am planning on a field overhaul of the left engine (right was done 2 years ago)... Once the weather goes sour for flying I will probably do it, rather than wait for the inspection...

denny-o

 

[COFlyBoy]

There is no requirement that you have an annual inspection completed.

but you must have the aircraft inspected every 12 months. read 91.409

Looks like it says "annual inspection" to me:
"Far 91.409
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—
(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; ..."


Granted there are other ways to satisfy 91.409, but they would be more work than an annual inspection (progressive MX program, etc).

 

[COFlyBoy]

Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to be more involved. Unfortunately, I can't be. I do take my plane to a mx shop (shout out here for Skytech in MD - GREAT place) where they are careful, and they are always happy to answer, patiently, as many questions as I can think of, no matter how stupid.

I make myself aware of issues. I ask questions. I look inside. It's the best I can do. They are always happy to take my calls, though, because I never wait on a repair. A stitch in time saves nine. And even lives.

There is a bias I've detected from time to time against owners, such as myself, who don't do their own mx. There was a thread on POA at one point where some pointed comments were made to that effect. I've checked the FARS -- there's no requirement to do your own mx, in fact it is largely proscribed. I'm an OWNER, not a maintainer. I hire people for that. Chrissakes, be glad I'm paying for A&Ps to work on planes.....

I won't rag on you. I'd love to have a flying budget that could support paying someone else for all of the MX. Truth is, my budget is pretty small, so doing what I can myself leaves me more moola for gas.

Dunno if you have any mechanical aptitude, but the work that we do is pretty tame. Remove a bunch of screws and then remove panel/gas tank/instrument. Send it away for repairs. Put it back on and reinstall screws. Then have A&P check it. Frankly, its pretty easy and a lot of fun.

OTOH, you have a fairly complex bird. MX on it could be a PITA.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I wonder how long some owners would defer maintenance if there were no 12 month inspection required?

Air worthiness issues we don't defer.

Some things are a judgment call as to when it should happen. Like, when do you decide your DG has degraded too much? Ours hadn't exceeded the precession limits during the summer, but during the winter it could take 1/2 hour to warm up enough to be useful.

Some stuff is just not obvious until you have it opened up, so you catch it at the annual.

 

[Ted]

I wonder how long some owners would defer maintenance if there were no 12 month inspection required?

Depends. I'm the sort of person who maintains my equipment anyway. But I also have friends who fly their aircraft 200-400 hours per year, only do an annual inspection because it's required, and when it comes spend lots more because of all the problems that have been allowed to deteriorate rather than getting fixed.

Totally unrelated, but I saw the 310 for the first time on the Could Nine facebook page, I didn't even know you were flying it...is it yours, or do you just fly it for Cloud Nine?

The plane belongs to Cloud Nine. While I'm the President and Chief Pilot for Cloud Nine (and therefore am in charge of its care, maintenance, and use), it's still a company owned asset. If I want to fly it for personal use, I have to rent it. We're very strict about this. Since I do virtually no personal flying, though, it's not a big deal. When I do have personal flying to do, I just use the Aztec.

Curious, is the 100 hour the same inspection as the annual on an Aztec like it is in my 182?

I don't do inspections every 100 hours but I won't fly my 182 over 150 hours without having it inspected. I have it signed off as an annual though because there's no reason not to. Same inspection, same cost and if it's logged as an annual I'm good to go for 12 months should I quit flying so much.

The 100-hour inspections are the same as annuals. We sign them off as such, but it's easier to describe them as 100-hours to others since, well, they're done every 100 hours of flight time. It just ends up being easier to do the maintenance that way. We always find something, and usually take the opportunity to fix something else that's been nagging. Of course, an Aztec has a lot more parts and systems than a 182. If you fly a Cherokee, it's probably not a big deal. But when you get into any complex aircraft, I've observed it to be a worthwhile investment.

There is a bias I've detected from time to time against owners, such as myself, who don't do their own mx. There was a thread on POA at one point where some pointed comments were made to that effect. I've checked the FARS -- there's no requirement to do your own mx, in fact it is largely proscribed. I'm an OWNER, not a maintainer. I hire people for that. Chrissakes, be glad I'm paying for A&Ps to work on planes.....

FWIW, Andrew, I certainly don't look down on you for it. Of course, as already stated, these days I'm in the same boat as you.

 

[dmccormack]

Accomplished so far (or in process):

• Open boot cowling and clean inside
• Remove floorboards and clean
• Vacuum interior
• Remove glue and old carpet residue from floorboards
• Cut floor covering to fit over floorboards (temporary installation – not fastened to airplane)
• Remove and replace all inspection covers and paint
• Remove cowling (5 pieces), strip old paint, reform, prime, fill, sand, repaint
• Remove and replace windscreen
• Refinish interior (pilot and co-pilot yokes, panel, structural tubing) in flat black
• Remove and inspect prop
• Replace prop retaining bolts
• Refinish wing root panels (sand, prime, paint)
• Reconnect wing root-mounted handheld radio antenna
• Replace all screws with stainless steel screws
• Compression test (70-71 over 80 for each cylinder)
• Clean engine compartment
• Wire brush corrosion on engine
• Repaint engine with Lycoming grey engine enamel
• Remove doors and replace door hinge pins
• Refinish aluminum windscreen retention strips
• Replace wood windshield retention strips
• Remove corrosion from gas cap retention fingers, replace wire, refinish cork with several coats of varnish
• Fix left aileron hinge and replace pivot bolt
• Re-run handheld radio battery and antenna wires
• Replace Velcro mounting for handheld radio

 

[Tom-D]

Depends. I'm the sort of person who maintains my equipment anyway. But I also have friends who fly their aircraft 200-400 hours per year, only do an annual inspection because it's required, and when it comes spend lots more because of all the problems that have been allowed to deteriorate rather than getting fixed.

If the aircraft is flying 200-300 hours per year it should be on a progressive inspection program. specially if it is a complex twin.

 

[Tom-D]

Some stuff is just not obvious until you have it opened up, so you catch it at the annual.

That is the purpose of an annual inspection, to discover latent discrepancies.

FAA guidance says, if it requires entry in the maintenance records to return repairs to service it is not a part of the inspection.

maintenance and inspections can occur at the same time, but are the same.

the best example I have is wheel bearings, the disassembly, cleaning and re greasing, is a owner maintenance function, but inspecting them once per year is a annual requirement, done by a A&P-IA, so the owner can complete the work of removal cleaning etc, show them to the IA and both have complied with their responsibilities.

 

[Ted]

If the aircraft is flying 200-300 hours per year it should be on a progressive inspection program. specially if it is a complex twin.

I agree with you, but some people don't.

 

[AdamZ]

!

I don't have the time to pull inspection panels. I pay people to do that for me. The most useful tool in my toolbox is my credit card. That doesn't make me a bad person, or a bad owner. It would be nice if I knew airplane mx, but I don't. So it goes.

Relax Andrew we all know thats not what makes you a bad person