Finally - Airlines are held responsible

wsuffa said:
Agree, but noted that the TSA is enough to make a saint scream. And that's how every trip starts....

Airlines can do more - but it takes management commitment to customer service long before you get on the plane. I note far fewer issues with "bad passengers" on B6 or WN than I do on a legacy carrier...
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I agree.

And it does start from the top. Bad mgmt begets angry employees begets bad customer service begets angry pax.

I read an interesting article recently, I believe by a pilot at SWA, who bemoaned recent changes there. The gist of what he said was when Herb was around, the contract was flexible, grey areas got worked out to everyones satisfaction, no legal mumbojumbo shenanigans. Now everything is to the letter, no flexibility, less pleasant.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I read an interesting article recently, I believe by a pilot at SWA, who bemoaned recent changes there. The gist of what he said was when Herb was around, the contract was flexible, grey areas got worked out to everyones satisfaction, no legal mumbojumbo shenanigans. Now everything is to the letter, no flexibility, less pleasant.
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Less rules, less signs equals more flexibility, more humanity

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/05/20/traffic_design/index.html
 
flyersfan31 said:
I agree.

And it does start from the top. Bad mgmt begets angry employees begets bad customer service begets angry pax.

I read an interesting article recently, I believe by a pilot at SWA, who bemoaned recent changes there. The gist of what he said was when Herb was around, the contract was flexible, grey areas got worked out to everyones satisfaction, no legal mumbojumbo shenanigans. Now everything is to the letter, no flexibility, less pleasant.
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Funny how that works....

And the attitude gets passed down. Some of us remember Ron Allen at Delta with his "no waivers, no favors" and "so be it" edicts. Some of the employees still have "so be it" buttons. Gerald Grinstein went a LONG way to putting that kind of attitude behind, but some of it still lingers.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I misunderstood the quote. Sorry.

I won't minimize the attitudes of some of the Flight Attendants. But I will say there are passengers that are equally as nasty.
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A big 10-4 on that last observation, Greg.

My experience has been very poor, but almost exclusively involving AA. Note well, however, that you'd expect my experiences to be with AA, because they dominate DFW.

AA operates under the premise that, if there is a significant WX event at their primary hubs (DFW, in my case), they pretty much schick-can the entire schedule and start over the next day - and as harsh as it sounds, I cannot blame them, since there are only so many crews available, and if they all time-out trying to fly to someplace they just can't get, then where are you, and your pax?

Where they fail miserably, is in the reaction at the terminals to these cancellations and disruptions. AA follows the mushroom theory - keep 'em in the dark! I have experienced this at SNA (I mean, for the loveaChrist, you cancel a 757 going to your largest hub and have no contingency plan to handle all the people who need to be re-routed, no agents dedicated to this issue? While I waited in the huge lines, three planes which could have gotten us home left with empty seats, and I ended up having to buy $1150.00 worth of seats on America West to get home), at SFO (had to find my own way home on UAL) and at BTR (four of us drove home in a rented Hyundai). AA pretty much closes up shop and leaves you to your own devices. On the other hand, when there are WX disruptions on SWA, they have teams of agents who go to the gate areas of the affected flights and aggressively work to re-route pax. Huge difference of attitude and approach. I cannot comment on other airlines, as I have no experience with them (well, Braniff used to do a good job, and AeroMexico put a plane load of pax up at a hotel in Monterrey...).

On the other hand, on the one diversion I have experienced on AA (FLL-DFW), the cabin and cockpit crew were exemplary, exhibited the very highest in courtesy and professionalism, kept us fully (and accurately) advised while on the ground at San antonio... then, when we were finally able to get to DFW, we had to sit waiting for a ground crew to marshal to the gate for at least 45 minutes (how must that be for the cockpit crew after a LONG DAY - looking at the gate, 50' in front of you, and knowing you can't just go on up...
 
wsuffa said:
Airlines can do more - but it takes management commitment to customer service long before you get on the plane.
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+1. As much as I hate the buzzword, "customer centric" that's what needs to happen.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I agree.

And it does start from the top. Bad mgmt begets angry employees begets bad customer service begets angry pax.

I read an interesting article recently, I believe by a pilot at SWA, who bemoaned recent changes there. The gist of what he said was when Herb was around, the contract was flexible, grey areas got worked out to everyones satisfaction, no legal mumbojumbo shenanigans. Now everything is to the letter, no flexibility, less pleasant.
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Funny - my gouge from inside SWA (high-seniority) says that the union leadership is losing the big picture, driving the tone of the relationship down.
 
SCCutler said:
A big 10-4 on that last observation, Greg.

My experience has been very poor, but almost exclusively involving AA. Note well, however, that you'd expect my experiences to be with AA, because they dominate DFW.

AA operates under the premise that, if there is a significant WX event at their primary hubs (DFW, in my case), they pretty much schick-can the entire schedule and start over the next day - and as harsh as it sounds, I cannot blame them, since there are only so many crews available, and if they all time-out trying to fly to someplace they just can't get, then where are you, and your pax?

Where they fail miserably, is in the reaction at the terminals to these cancellations and disruptions. AA follows the mushroom theory - keep 'em in the dark! I have experienced this at SNA (I mean, for the loveaChrist, you cancel a 757 going to your largest hub and have no contingency plan to handle all the people who need to be re-routed, no agents dedicated to this issue? While I waited in the huge lines, three planes which could have gotten us home left with empty seats, and I ended up having to buy $1150.00 worth of seats on America West to get home), at SFO (had to find my own way home on UAL) and at BTR (four of us drove home in a rented Hyundai). AA pretty much closes up shop and leaves you to your own devices. On the other hand, when there are WX disruptions on SWA, they have teams of agents who go to the gate areas of the affected flights and aggressively work to re-route pax. Huge difference of attitude and approach. I cannot comment on other airlines, as I have no experience with them (well, Braniff used to do a good job, and AeroMexico put a plane load of pax up at a hotel in Monterrey...).

On the other hand, on the one diversion I have experienced on AA (FLL-DFW), the cabin and cockpit crew were exemplary, exhibited the very highest in courtesy and professionalism, kept us fully (and accurately) advised while on the ground at San antonio... then, when we were finally able to get to DFW, we had to sit waiting for a ground crew to marshal to the gate for at least 45 minutes (how must that be for the cockpit crew after a LONG DAY - looking at the gate, 50' in front of you, and knowing you can't just go on up...
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Well, if you were something more than a peon frequent flyer.... :rofl:

Seriously, AA canceled my flight back from LAX a few weeks ago (the day the ATC flight plan filing system went down). I got an email alert within minutes of the cancellation, and a call within 30 minutes. They had rebooked me for the next morning (the redeye had filled) - but took the time to see what other options there were as I had an early AM meeting the next day.

So that part of the service went well. What didn't go well was what happened next (and I don't know whether to blame AA or UA, but I suspect UA is to blame).

I got a call from the corporate travel agent, about 30 minutes after AA called me advising of the flight cancellation. I had spent the intervening time looking for options (ExpertFlyer is your friend) before calling. B6 and VX were either full or had already departed. Connections on CO, DL, NW, and WN couldn't get me home that night. However, there were seats for sale on the 4 PM UA flight.

AA's computer couldn't see those seats, and couldn't transfer me over. AA told me their computer showed the flight full. My corporate TA could see them and book them. They were available on the UA site. ExpertFlyer showed one available... but not AA. I had our TA call AA, who confirmed to him that they couldn't see the seat, so we bought it (and the TA went to work on AA to get a refund for the canceled segment). Oh, and the TA couldn't assign a seat - I had to buy the E+ seat to get an advance assignment.

I suspect that UA's computer refused to let AA see the inventory, but not sure. Airline booking systems can selectively block who can see what seats are available. If UA was blocking it, then in effect, UA was refusing to help the passengers of another airline that were stranded due to cancellation. Not nearly as serious as the CO situation in Minnesota where the other airline refused to help them deboard the stranded passengers, but similar in nature. I won't fault UA for trying to extract more money for that seat by selling it outright as a last-minute purchase, that's their business judgement.... but (and along with their blocking of some StarAlliance award seat availablilty for UA's frequent flyers) it makes a difference in how I think about spending my/the company's travel $$$. IOW, UA did nothing in this case to earn my willingness to give future business. It was even a fight to board with the StarGold passengers (I'm Platinum on CO, which should get me some elite privileges with UA).

Mad? No. More hassle than I needed? Yep. In the end, I got home that night albeit with a lot more cost to the company.
 
Grumpy passengers? Yeah, I've had that. I've had passengers yell at me - even on occasion bite me - during the boarding and de-planing process. Frequently they're very grumpy, and sometimes have gotten their excrement on me. Plus I usually have to clean up at least one of their messes. Then again, wouldn't you be if you were stuck in a cage, forced on a plane, and didn't know it was to save your life?

Sometimes they figure it out, though. Those that do usually kiss me. And all of them generally shut up on the takeoff roll through touchdown. I don't even serve in-flight snacks or beverages.

Maybe I should wear the flight suit more often.
 
Reliable sources have reported that you treat your passengers like dogs.

Big fines to follow.

Ted DuPuis said:
Grumpy passengers? Yeah, I've had that. I've had passengers yell at me - even on occasion bite me - during the boarding and de-planing process. Frequently they're very grumpy, and sometimes have gotten their excrement on me. Plus I usually have to clean up at least one of their messes. Then again, wouldn't you be if you were stuck in a cage, forced on a plane, and didn't know it was to save your life?

Sometimes they figure it out, though. Those that do usually kiss me. And all of them generally shut up on the takeoff roll through touchdown. I don't even serve in-flight snacks or beverages.

Maybe I should wear the flight suit more often.
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flyersfan31 said:
Oh yeah. Or worse. I agree. I've seen some a-holes that have made me wonder why the FA didn't just dump a load of coffee on their heads, or the CSR to book them accidentally to Minot ND. Something about air travel make some people assume they have a license to scream at anyone about anything. Sad.
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As someone with massive customer service experience, I can say with authority that the FAs, as representatives, are to take the punishment and return a smile.

The customer gets to be a jerk. They paid for the ticket. The FA is there to serve them (and protect them, but a large part of their job is service).

SWA gets it.
 
Since Bill raised going through TSA check points, let me ask what other do with their wallet and cash. I went through TSA yesterday and had about $500 in cash and didn't want to give up my wallet. The cash was in a money clip I just kept in my hand. They wanted my wallet in that little gray plastic bin with my coat, shoes and keys. I didn't want my wallet in there because if lost, I would lose my IDs and needed to drive and fly later that day. So, what to y'all do with cash and wallet?

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Since Bill raised going through TSA check points, let me ask what other do with their wallet and cash. I went through TSA yesterday and had about $500 in cash and didn't want to give up my wallet. The cash was in a money clip I just kept in my hand. They wanted my wallet in that little gray plastic bin with my coat, shoes and keys. I didn't want my wallet in there because if lost, I would lose my IDs and needed to drive and fly later that day. So, what to y'all do with cash and wallet?

Best,

Dave
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My wallet stays in my pocket. Only been an issue at one airport, and that wasn't in the US (Copenhagen). Coins get tossed in a pocket in my laptop case, along with any other metal items (pens, watch, cell phone, etc).
 
wabower said:
Reliable sources have reported that you treat your passengers like dogs.

Big fines to follow.
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I admit to being guilty as charged... for the dogs, at least. My huamn passengers would be fortunate if I treated them as well as I treat the dogs (ask Missa).
 

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Ted DuPuis said:
I admit to being guilty as charged... for the dogs, at least. My huamn passengers would be fortunate if I treated them as well as I treat the dogs (ask Missa).
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Yep, he treats the dogs better... on the way back from Gastons I think I would have had more leg room if I was in the cage then I did in the seat. It was cold and noisy and I couldn't talk to anyone and I had to provide the inflight refreshments and entertainment.

On the way to Gastons he kept yelling "my plane" at me too. :rolleyes:

Missa
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Since Bill raised going through TSA check points, let me ask what other do with their wallet and cash. I went through TSA yesterday and had about $500 in cash and didn't want to give up my wallet. The cash was in a money clip I just kept in my hand. They wanted my wallet in that little gray plastic bin with my coat, shoes and keys. I didn't want my wallet in there because if lost, I would lose my IDs and needed to drive and fly later that day. So, what to y'all do with cash and wallet?

Best,

Dave
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Cash and two credit cards and DL go in pocket. Money clip, change, car keys, go in my computer bag, zipped into inside pocket.
 
There's nothing metallic in my wallet. My wallet never leaves my pocket, period.
Besides all the other stuff, it has my police ID and my federal ID. Those never leave my person for any reason.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Since Bill raised going through TSA check points, let me ask what other do with their wallet and cash. I went through TSA yesterday and had about $500 in cash and didn't want to give up my wallet. The cash was in a money clip I just kept in my hand. They wanted my wallet in that little gray plastic bin with my coat, shoes and keys. I didn't want my wallet in there because if lost, I would lose my IDs and needed to drive and fly later that day. So, what to y'all do with cash and wallet?

Best,

Dave
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Ghery said:
My wallet stays in my pocket. Only been an issue at one airport, and that wasn't in the US (Copenhagen). Coins get tossed in a pocket in my laptop case, along with any other metal items (pens, watch, cell phone, etc).
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Everskyward said:
They go through the machine in my backpack or other bag.
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What Mari said: It goes in my computer bag/briefcase. I strip down before the checkpoint: coins, pens, blackberries, belt, watch, wallet. The only metal that stays on is my glasses.

If TSA pulls a bag to ransack it, or pulls you aside for a pat-down, you have the right to have your bags in-sight or ask for a private inspection. Use that right.

In Europe, it's virtually mandatory to remove (belt, too). AMS, CPH, MUC, PRG, BUD, etc. I'd take it out anyway because I have an assortment of smart card in there, ranging from gate access for HEF to the DC Metro to an Oyster card (if I go to the UK) to building access.

Dave, you can always discreetly take off the clip and leave the cash in your pocket. Unless you're forced to go through one of the new strip-search machines it won't be a problem.
 
Travelers want as many options as possible when booking their flights...'Every hour on the hour please....if you don't offer what we want, we're going with another carrier.' So the airlines say, okay, we'll make planning your travel as convenient as possible for you. Lots of volume, lower prices. On a clear day, that works out fine, and 'the system' can handle all that volume with minimal issues, and most days are relatively smooth.

Now we throw in a little weather (snow, rain, t'storms, winds, etc), so now the airport isn't in the optimal configuration for departures/arrivals. The airspace starts getting clogged due to storms blocking airways, so there are bottlenecks in certain centers that are already near their capacity.

The airports start getting jammed because of the backlog, and now all those conveniences start getting pretty inconvenient. Having been an airline SOC Manager (Systems Operation Control - Dispatch), I've seen how quickly the backlog builds up. We say 'let's cancel some flights to thin the operation so things flow a little better, and delays are minimized.' Now we have planes from the cancelled flights parked at gates, and the operating flights have nowhere to park. We attempt to cancel from the out-station (non-hub) airports, but then the pax there complain - 'how come airline x is able to go to ABC and you're not? CS tries to explain, but get told "you're lying to us - your airline sucks, etc"

I was also a commuter - lived in NYC, and worked in IAD. I flew back and forth every week. Gates may be easy to come by in the smaller airports, but with all the volume scheduled to the airports that people want to fly most conveniently(LGA, JFK, EWR, ATL, ORD), gates are a premium, and when one airplane pushes back, there is another one waiting to take it's spot, so they are hardly ever empty - even on the clearest, and smoothest operating days. Sure, you may see some empty gates from time to time at some of these airports, but those are at off-peak hours, when customers have shown they don't want to travel.

It's been stated above the biggest problem is lack of ground space. This is absolutely correct, and unless more airports are built, or flight volume is reduced, I'm not sure this problem will ever go away.

Think hypothetically on a personal level...you live paycheck to paycheck, and 95% of your income is used every month...and that extra 5% can't be carried over to the next month (use it or lose it). All of a sudden, you get hit with an extra expense or two...you can probably make some minor adjustments and handle it okay, but when 'it really hits the fan' where is the extra money going to come from? You may be able to pay down a little at a time over the next few months with that extra 5%, but it's going to take a while...and there are no other options available unless you cut something else out of the budget. - Same with gate space...there's a little room for error, but once that's used up, there ain't nothin' left if it ain't in the budget.

So does the airline reduce flights? (not what the customer wants, and another airline will just snatch up that spot with another flight anyways). Do they move flights to off-peak times to reduce congestion? (again, not what the customer wants). Airline regulation again? (not really what the customer or the airlines really want...or is it?)

I'm not sure there is a good solution, but perhaps if these fines are actually imposed there will be a Darwinian effect, and things will just balance out on their own.
 
I thought it was his plane.

Missa said:
Yep, he treats the dogs better... on the way back from Gastons I think I would have had more leg room if I was in the cage then I did in the seat. It was cold and noisy and I couldn't talk to anyone and I had to provide the inflight refreshments and entertainment.

On the way to Gastons he kept yelling "my plane" at me too. :rolleyes:

Missa
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The only things I keep on me through the metal detector is my wallet and a lighter in my watch pocket.

The metal on the lighter is small enough to never be detected.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
And there lies the rub. No one single issue is a big deal. But the difficulty of solving them as a whole rises almost exponentially.
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Turns out the problems haven't been that hard to solve after all. There have been two full months after the rule took effect that have been reported in now. In May, there were 5 3+-hour delays reported, four of which were found to have been incorrect reports. In June, three such delays were reported, all United flights on the same day with a severe thunderstorm at O'Hare.

That's a LOT fewer delays than were reported in the same months last year.

The big thing: No increase in flight cancellations.

http://www.avstop.com/news_august_2...w_tarmac rule_dramatically_reduces_delays.htm

So, apparently the airlines have managed to do what they said they couldn't do, once the government forced them to at least try.
 
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It also appears that there has not been an increase in flight cancellations by airlines to avoid penalties. Some carriers, notably Continental Airlines, had warned of that possibility.
Instead, the bureau reported, U.S. carriers canceled 1.5 percent of their scheduled flights in June, the same as in June 2009.
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So now we have another data point that says this is not as big a problem as the airlines thought it would be.
​
 
Its been a few years now. I can honestly say, as my travel time has increased significantly, that I have not had any of these problems in a while. In fact, I've spent a lot of time stuck in terminals waiting for weather to clear before boarding, but not been stuck on a plane, on the taxiway, for hours at a time.

Looks like this worked as we expected!

Anyone else have any experiences to share?
 
SkyHog said:
Its been a few years now. I can honestly say, as my travel time has increased significantly, that I have not had any of these problems in a while. In fact, I've spent a lot of time stuck in terminals waiting for weather to clear before boarding, but not been stuck on a plane, on the taxiway, for hours at a time.

Looks like this worked as we expected!

Anyone else have any experiences to share?
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Yep.

Every time I fly, they try to embarrass me when I opt out from nude-o-scope irradiation. Loudly.

It's still shameful.

But I have not been stuck on the ramp lately.
 
SkyHog said:
Its been a few years now. I can honestly say, as my travel time has increased significantly, that I have not had any of these problems in a while. In fact, I've spent a lot of time stuck in terminals waiting for weather to clear before boarding, but not been stuck on a plane, on the taxiway, for hours at a time.

Looks like this worked as we expected!

Anyone else have any experiences to share?
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Not stuck on the ramp, now they just cancell if there is going to be a 2-3 hour delay.. So that is much better.....
 
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