Ferry Pilot Question

Geico266

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Is being a ferry pilot for a friend "illegal"?

Our local Saturday morning "hanger flying crew" came up with a dilemma for me where one did not exist before. :rofl: Thanks guys. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Anyway, a friend bought an experimental RV-9A in Washington state and asked me to ferry the plane back to NE. I would do it for just the fun of it, and as a favor, solo. Not building time, just because. What is the problem with that? Well, as it turns out a few of the guys thinks it is illegal (against regs) to do that. :rolleyes:

The scenario is the buyer pays all expenses and I get no money for my time. It seems simple enough. I'm not doing this as a career, not advertising this service, not done it before. It's a one time deal. What is wrong with that?

Why is it if it is fun it is against FAA regs?
mad.gif


I could get my commercial license and be done with it right?
 
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Which reg are they citing that makes it illegal?

Is being a ferry pilot for a friend "illegal"?

Our local Saturday morning "hanger flying crew" came up with a dilemma for me where one did not exist before. :rofl: Thanks guys. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Anyway, a friend bought an experimental RV-9A in Washington state and asked me to ferry the plane back to NE. I would do it for just the fun of it, and as a favor, solo. Not building time, just because. What is the problem with that? Well, as it turns out a few of the guys thinks it is illegal (against regs) to do that. :rolleyes:

The scenario is the buyer pays all expenses and I get no money for my time. It seems simple enough. I'm not doing this as a career, not advertising this service, not done it before. It's a one time deal. What is wrong with that?

Why is it if it is fun it is against FAA regs?
mad.gif


I could get my commercial license and be done with it right?
 
This question comes up frequently. Two issues arise when you fly an airplane you don't own or aren't renting.

1. Will the FAA consider you to be flying for hire or compensation? If they do, you need a commercial certificate. Where this gets sticky is defining "for compensation". The FAA has (and the NTSB has agreed) that getting free flight time - essentially gettting loggable hours - is "compensation". If you don't log the time, and don't take ANY money (not even for expenses), then it's highly unlikely that you'd be found to be in violation of any FAA regs. If you take expenses, it's probably still not a problem - you've got a pre-existing friendship, and you're not logging time. A commercial certificate does solve all these issues, as there's no question that an owner can hire you to fly his airplane, and pay you for it, as long as you're rated in category and class and have the proper medical certificate.

2. What does the insurance company think? This is the one most people should be more worried about. They may require a certain amount of time in the aircraft type, and certain certificates or ratings to extend coverage to the ferry pilot. If you meet the open pilot clause of the coverage, all that means is that the insurance company will reimburse the OWNER for any losses, but they'll probably come after you in subrogation to recoup their loss.

Bottom line - as long as you don't bend the airplane nobody would be the wiser. But if something were to go wrong, you want to consider the scrutiny that comes down on you.
 
Easy.. give him a penny to "rent" his plane for the trip. As for insurance if something happens its his penny,,, not yours.

Ben.
 
If you are not getting paid to fly it back, I don't see a violation. I see it like this,

"Hi Bob this Dean, I just bought an airplane that is in Washington but I don't have the time off from work. I have an airline ticket ready to go, would you go get it for me?"

If that is illegal, then probably everyone of us are in trouble.
 
Easy.. give him a penny to "rent" his plane for the trip. As for insurance if something happens its his penny,,, not yours.

Ben.

You wish. Hell, I wish. If you bend an airplane and you do not have insurance that covers you, by name, for the damage and liability, I can almost guarantee that you'll be out a fair amount of time and probably some money before it all is settled.
 
From my understanding of the regs, Tim is right. You flying it back on his dime counts as compensation (which is beyond idiotic).

To be 100% legal, you can get your Commercial (don't forget the Class 2 medical if you're exercising the privileges of your Commercial cert) and be done with it. Or... you could just do it and not bend the plane, and nobody will care.
 
Make sure you are insured and agree you are helping out your pal for free. Sometime later after the plane is safe in the barn your friend decides to take you out for dinner, and drinks, and gives you a nice gift because he appreciates your friendship. It's just between friends. I aint gonna turn you in. Jeez.

Down the road you are going for your commercial and the FAA examiner is looking through your log book. He sees the flight from Seattle and comments on what a long cross country that is and asks "what was it like coming over the mountains?"

There is a SLIGHT chance he might point out that you really aren't supposed to log that toward a rating. Since you have enough time for the commercial without it you cross it out.

I think it's highly unlikely you will end up in the slammer.
 
Make sure you are insured and agree you are helping out your pal for free. Sometime later after the plane is safe in the barn your friend decides to take you out for dinner, and drinks, and gives you a nice gift because he appreciates your friendship. It's just between friends. I aint gonna turn you in. Jeez.

Down the road you are going for your commercial and the FAA examiner is looking through your log book. He sees the flight from Seattle and comments on what a long cross country that is and asks "what was it like coming over the mountains?"

There is a SLIGHT chance he might point out that you really aren't supposed to log that toward a rating. Since you have enough time for the commercial without it you cross it out.

I think it's highly unlikely you will end up in the slammer.

Ahh... The examiner won't know (unless you wrote it in the log) that you got compensated in any way. Seriously - solve the insurance issues first, and then don't log the time, and you'd be unlikely to come to grief with the FAA.
 
Your buddy can lend you his aircraft any time he wants. where that occures, and where it ends, is not a concern of the FAAs.

If you are in Wa. and use his aircraft to get home be sure to use your credit card for gas. that way the feds can't say he paid you.

later he can pay you for sweeping his hangar.

ferry pilot infers a commerchal operation, borrowing an aircraft does not.



OBTW, if you are up here stop by for lunch.
 
Part 61.113, Paragraph (a) could be interpreted as saying "no" to your plan: the first half talks about being compensated for flights with pax, but the second part says no PP-holder may "for compensation or hire act as PIC of an aircraft". In other words, it could be interpreted that you are getting something tangible for flying the plane. I think there have been cases where the free stick time was considered "compensation". Yeah, I know...:rolleyes:

The "pro rata share" thing is from Paragraph C, which says you can't pay less that a "pro rata" share, but it only refers to flights carrying pax.

But until they add "no PP may ferry an aircraft with the owner covering all costs", it's a tough call. Probably wouldn't be an issue unless a) you have a problem or b) some over-zealous jerk "drops dime" on you.

However, 61.113 (b) says a non-CP can fly as PIC "on the clock", so to speak, as long as the flight is "only incidental to that business or employment"... so maybe your friend could hire you to pick up a handful of dirt from Washington for him (or something), and mail it to him from there (remember, you can't carry stuff "for compensation or hire").
Write up a contract where he pays you an amount equivalent for to the flight and return travel expenses.
I'm kidding about that last part, but... technically it would be legal, right? :D
 
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Found this on the AOPA web site...
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/1997/pc9710.html

The pertinent section (I bolded the text):
The FAA interprets the term compensation in its broadest sense. Compensation is not only the payment of money, but it is the receipt of anything of value, and even the mere expectation of some benefit. To show you how broad the FAA interpretation is, the agency, on several occasions, has said that just building up flight time is compensation to the pilot where the pilot does not pay the cost of operating the aircraft. The most extreme position that I have seen the FAA take is that the expectation of a tax deduction to a pilot of a charitable flight is compensation. The FAA backed off that one.

I realize AOPA isn't regulatory but they do a reasonable job in interpreting the regulations.
 
However, 61.113 (b) says a non-CP can fly as PIC "on the clock", so to speak, as long as the flight is "only incidental to that business or employment"... so maybe your friend could hire you to pick up a handful of dirt from Washington for him (or something), and mail it to him from there (remember, you can't carry stuff "for compensation or hire").
Write up a contract where he pays you an amount equivalent for to the flight and return travel expenses.
I'm kidding about that last part, but... technically it would be legal, right? :D

Sorry, but any attempt to pass off a duck as a pig will ultimately fail if it comes to the attention of the FAA so there's really no point in subterfuge, especially in written form which could be used against you.

Tim's post is exactly correct, the FAA has indicated in the past that they consider "free" flight time as compensation and I'm pretty certain that as long as you can show there was no benefit (besides the experience itself) in the form of financial compensation or loggable hours. There's probably a gray area if you already have enough time to qualify for any rating that the flight time might help with but then you're back to dancing in front of the FAA and NTSB, something I think any sane pilot should avoid whenever possible.

Tom's interpretation is also likely valid. The IRS allows any person to "gift" another person with something like $12000 per year (the amount has varied over time) and technically if you agree to fly the plane on your own dime using your credit card to pay for all direct costs like fuel, oil, tiedowns, etc, the flight would clearly not require a commercial certificate in the eyes of the FAA.

Should the owner later decide to reward you in an amount similar to your total expenses for the trip the FAA will never know and shouldn't really care, just don't put anything in writing that shows a quid pro quo relationship between the flight and the gift.

And finally as others have posted, insurance is a more immediate issue. Your choices are:

1) Go bare (self insured). Probably not a good idea for you unless your friend agrees (in writing) that he will cover any damage or liability arising from the trip out of his own pocket. Even then if his pockets aren't deep enough you will still be on the hook for the rest. And in any case this is a horrible risk for the owner.

2) Have the owner add you as a "named pilot". This means that he's covered by his insurer (they will pay for repairing/replacing the airplane and for any liability claims). Unfortunately they can still come after you unless you also get a waiver of subrogation from the insurer (the policy likely limits the owner's ability to grant you that waiver himself). And if you already qualify under the policy's open pilot warranty, being added as a named pilot does nothing more than providing written evidence that the insurer cannot later claim that you didn't qualify.

3) Have the owner add you as a named "insured" on his policy. This means you are both covered up to the policy limits, although it also means you share those limits. Alternatively, getting a subrogation waiver from the insurer does the same thing althogh AFaIK that's typically a more temporary arrangement.

4) Obtain your own insurance for "non-owned" aircraft. You might already have this if you currently own and insure an airplane with similar characteristics (same or fewer seats, same category/class, same setup WRT retractable gear, HP engine etc), and if you do have a policy but it doesn't provide this coverage it may be possible to add for little if any money. If you don't have an appropriate policy you can purchase "renter's insurance" in an appropriate amount. Ideally this could be done for just the one flight (assuming you won't be flying this plane again) but that's not likely. You probably could cut the cost by paying for a year's worth and then cancelling for a partial refund (check with the broker on this, it might not be allowed or economical).

Finally, no one seems to have said anything about your own proficiency in this airplane as well as flight across the mountains in the winter. I believe that you are familiar with some RV models, but I'd give careful consideration to what kind of checkout you should receive before launching on a trip across the country in an unfamiliar airplane. Even if you have adequate experience with a RV-9A, it's likely that there are unique issues with this particular example including but not limited to the avionics, engine, and fuel systems.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see where you're being compensated in any way. Your friend asked you to move his airplane. You are certificated to do so. You are not being paid. And the idea that free use of the airplane is "compensation" seems silly to me as long as the only reason you're flying the airplane is to accomplish the unpaid favor, for which flying the airplane is obviously a necessity.

Truly, I can't imagine any but the most anal bureaucrat having a problem with this, even if your friend were to pay for the gas. In fact, to my thinking, that would solidify the status of the flight as a favor to your friend.

But again, I'm not a lawyer, so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

-Rich
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see where you're being compensated in any way. Your friend asked you to move his airplane. You are certificated to do so. You are not being paid. And the idea that free use of the airplane is "compensation" seems silly to me as long as the only reason you're flying the airplane is to accomplish the unpaid favor, for which flying the airplane is obviously a necessity.

Yes it's silly, but it has been stated by the FAA that this is indeed their policy.

Truly, I can't imagine any but the most anal bureaucrat having a problem with this, even if your friend were to pay for the gas. In fact, to my thinking, that would solidify the status of the flight as a favor to your friend.

And you have reason to believe that the FAA isn't staffed with "anal bureaucrats", why?
 
Cap'n Jack has it exactly right -- it's illegal for a non-CP/ATP to do unless the pilot pays the direct cost of the flight, which is essentially the fuel. Fail to pay for your flight time, and you are receiving compensation (valuable flight time usable for higher certificates/ratings) in exchange for providing pilot services (ferrying the plane). No getting around this with discussion of gifts, because this isn't a "gift" -- there's a clear quid pro quo. OTOH, buy the gas (and any landing/parking fees en route) and you're in the clear.

And don't even think about accepting any other expense money -- again, it would be a quid pro quo situation, and you can't accept a dime from your friend even if you call it "reimbursement."
 
If it were me and I could afford it, I would take the trip and pay for it for none other than the experience itself. How often are you given the opportunity to fly someone else's airplane 1000+nm? Who cares if it costs you 2-3 AMU's if you can afford it. Again, I say do it if you can afford it. That being said, I would not attempt it with the hope nothing goes wrong so insurance/FAA won't find out. A guy named Murphy tends to follow me around so I have no choice but to do things the right and ethical way. ;)
 
And don't even think about accepting any other expense money -- again, it would be a quid pro quo situation, and you can't accept a dime from your friend even if you call it "reimbursement."

No, But you can work for your friend in any other capacity and get paid.

The FAA won't even try to follow the money, there is way to many ways to hide it. The IRS can't even prove cash under the table.
 
The other way to do this, is to buy a share in the aircraft.
 
I'd say don't do the flight unless you have a credit card or other indisputable source indicating paying for expenses in your name. Then, make sure you don't show any cash deposits in that account before or afterward.

All it takes is that one ramp check that would never otherwise happen or some other minor incident. Murphy is often lying in wait.
 
No, But you can work for your friend in any other capacity and get paid.

The FAA won't even try to follow the money, there is way to many ways to hide it. The IRS can't even prove cash under the table.
I thought he was asking if it was legal, not if he could do it without getting caught. Sorry.:blush:
 
There's probably a gray area...............

That's all I need. ;)

Thanks for all the input guys. I do appreciate it. I'll be careful, and get my Commercial endorsement. It looks like there may be other planes I need to ferry also, so that is going beyond the realm of being "reasonable." THEN I can charge! :D:D:D
 
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That's all I need. ;)

Thanks for all the input guys. I do appreciate it. I'll be careful, and get my Commercial endorsement. It looks like there may be other planes I need to ferry also, so that is going beyond the realm of being "reasonable." THEN I can charge! :D:D:D
It's not an endorsement. It's an entirely new airman certificate. Think of it as the Private Pilot Certificate sort of on steroids. But, it can be fun!
 
Makes no difference -- legally, he still has to pay to full direct cost of the operation, and cannot accept expense money from co-owners.

The only way the FAA is going to hassle him over this is if they must, they don't have the man power to run around chasing every pilot who is flying some one elses aircraft.

I've been thru customs, flight checks, and ramp checks in other peoples aircraft the FAA doesn't give a hoot about who is flying who's aircraft as long as the aircraft is in an airworthy condition and you are rated to fly it, and have premission to fly it.

the only way the OP will get into trouble is if his hangar buddies call FSDO and make a complaint.
 
The only way the FAA is going to hassle him over this is if they must, they don't have the man power to run around chasing every pilot who is flying some one elses aircraft.

I've been thru customs, flight checks, and ramp checks in other peoples aircraft the FAA doesn't give a hoot about who is flying who's aircraft as long as the aircraft is in an airworthy condition and you are rated to fly it, and have premission to fly it.

the only way the OP will get into trouble is if his hangar buddies call FSDO and make a complaint.
Tom, are you really saying that he should do it whether it's legal or not, because it's not likely he'll get caught? Because I'm pretty sure you don't feel the same way about the maintenance rules.
 
4) Obtain your own insurance for "non-owned" aircraft. You might already have this if you currently own and insure an airplane with similar characteristics (same or fewer seats, same category/class, same setup WRT retractable gear, HP engine etc), and if you do have a policy but it doesn't provide this coverage it may be possible to add for little if any money. If you don't have an appropriate policy you can purchase "renter's insurance" in an appropriate amount. Ideally this could be done for just the one flight (assuming you won't be flying this plane again) but that's not likely. You probably could cut the cost by paying for a year's worth and then cancelling for a partial refund (check with the broker on this, it might not be allowed or economical).

One caveat to Lance's excellent post. If you're paying the freight (the gas) and doing your friend a favor, then the non-owned policy described above works. If you get your CP certificate and are getting compensated, it does NOT - all the "rental" policies specifically exclude commercial ops, and I've confirmed (with all of them) that they don't just mean commercial ops like traffic watch or flight instruction or other stuff, they also mean if you, as the insured pilot, are getting compensated in any way, the policy is null and void.

Reasonable commercial hull insurance for a part-time ferry pilot is practically unobtainable. I've found when I do the occasional ferry work that being a named insured is my first choice, a waiver of subrogation is the second. Third option is to take out a specific policy that covers the operation. This is expensive but I bill it direct to the client in that case so it's his money.
 
Cap'n Jack has it exactly right -- it's illegal for a non-CP/ATP to do unless the pilot pays the direct cost of the flight, which is essentially the fuel. Fail to pay for your flight time, and you are receiving compensation (valuable flight time usable for higher certificates/ratings) in exchange for providing pilot services (ferrying the plane). No getting around this with discussion of gifts, because this isn't a "gift" -- there's a clear quid pro quo. OTOH, buy the gas (and any landing/parking fees en route) and you're in the clear.

Okay, I have a couple of questions.

1) Let's say Geico has all of the minimum flight time he needs for any certificate he wants - As in, ATP minimums of 1500 TT, 500 XC, 100 night and 75 instrument - Then he's obviously not getting much by simply logging time. Would that make it OK? Now, let's say he doesn't even log it. Would that make it OK?

2) I've gotten some free flight time (it's OK, I have my commercial, but let's just say I didn't for the purposes of this question) from my flying club, ferrying our airplanes to another airport for the purpose of having maintenance performed. I am an equity owner in the club, so technically I own a 1/30th share of all 3 airplanes. I may be flying the plane which is going for maintenance, or I may be flying the chase plane bringing the maintenance plane's pilot back (or taking them up to retrieve the plane after mx) - does it make a difference? Since I'm part owner of the planes, and am thus paying something indirectly towards their upkeep relieve me of the need for a commercial certificate?

3) Let's say I'm a volunteer for a non-profit organization that owns an airplane. I've put a lot of work into said organization, and this plane needs to be promoted at airshows. Now, flying to airshows is certainly legal as long as I'm doing the promoting at the airshow and not just using the plane for to & from transportation, but what about getting checked out in the airplane beforehand?

I can see why the FAA wants a commercial for time building because for a time builder flight time really is compensation (but what if it doesn't get logged?). For these other cases, it seems kind of silly.
 
Kent - I'm aware of one case where an FBO gave a private pilot a discounted rental rate ($10 per hour instead of the $120 per hour) when the pilot ferried an airplane to a maintenance shop for an oil change. The FSDO felt that the "discount" was in fact compensation. Nobody got violated as the inspector (a rare breath of sanity) didn't feel anyone was intentionally trying to sneak around rules, but from then on all ferries were done by commercial pilots.

Clubs are a different story. I don't know enough to comment.
 
Tom, are you really saying that he should do it whether it's legal or not, because it's not likely he'll get caught? Because I'm pretty sure you don't feel the same way about the maintenance rules.

You have already stated that is not a violation until he excepts compensation for the flying.

so how can it be illegal if no money is changing hands for flying?

There are no rules saying he can't fly his friends aircraft, any where, at any time, for any reason, and leave it any where the owner wants.

How many times have you loged a flight one way ? some one flew it out, and youflew it back, so he can too.

The only thing a CP can do the PPL can't is charge for the service. So, as we both have said earlier, as long as he pays the expenses for the trip he can do this.

and I've said earlier he can get his money back by being paid for some thing else. sweeping the hangar, counseling services. etc.
 
Kent - I'm aware of one case where an FBO gave a private pilot a discounted rental rate ($10 per hour instead of the $120 per hour) when the pilot ferried an airplane to a maintenance shop for an oil change. The FSDO felt that the "discount" was in fact compensation.

And they were right, it is a compensation.


Nobody got violated as the inspector (a rare breath of sanity) didn't feel anyone was intentionally trying to sneak around rules, but from then on all ferries were done by commercial pilots.

Clubs are a different story. I don't know enough to comment.

Had the pilot paid full rental for the aircraft time, he could have dropped the aircraft any where they owner wanted and not met the rule for compensation.
 
Here's my take I think would sustain...

Okay, I have a couple of questions.

1) Let's say Geico has all of the minimum flight time he needs for any certificate he wants - As in, ATP minimums of 1500 TT, 500 XC, 100 night and 75 instrument - Then he's obviously not getting much by simply logging time. Would that make it OK? Now, let's say he doesn't even log it. Would that make it OK?
He doesn't hold the requisite certificate. That's all that counts.

2) I've gotten some free flight time (it's OK, I have my commercial, but let's just say I didn't for the purposes of this question) from my flying club, ferrying our airplanes to another airport for the purpose of having maintenance performed. I am an equity owner in the club, so technically I own a 1/30th share of all 3 airplanes. I may be flying the plane which is going for maintenance, or I may be flying the chase plane bringing the maintenance plane's pilot back (or taking them up to retrieve the plane after mx) - does it make a difference? Since I'm part owner of the planes, and am thus paying something indirectly towards their upkeep relieve me of the need for a commercial certificate?
You're a member with a portion of ownership in the club or a small piece of partnership. That would be carrying out an action which would benefit yourself as a member of this group. It would be different if you were an outside party to the club and asked to ferry the aircraft.

3) Let's say I'm a volunteer for a non-profit organization that owns an airplane. I've put a lot of work into said organization, and this plane needs to be promoted at air shows. Now, flying to air shows is certainly legal as long as I'm doing the promoting at the airshow and not just using the plane for to & from transportation, but what about getting checked out in the airplane beforehand?
I think the rule requiring a Commercial Pilot Certificate would apply. For example, those pilots who hold and care for aircraft for Tora Tora Tora get reimbursement for expenses during air show demonstrations as well as travel expenses. They don't get paid for time but certainly everything else is paid for. Those I know hold a commercial certificate and a couple do not hold an instrument rating.

I can see why the FAA wants a commercial for time building because for a time builder flight time really is compensation (but what if it doesn't get logged?). For these other cases, it seems kind of silly.
That doesn't matter. It's assumed the pilot will log it. Hence, it's compensation.
 
All it takes is that one ramp check that would never otherwise happen or some other minor incident. Murphy is often lying in wait.

What would they be checking that would indicate who paid for the flight? I've never been ramp checked but I assume they look at airworthiness and airman certification issues.

I'm not making a judgement about the legalities, but I don't see how a ramp check would reveal anything that would show who ultimately will be paying the cost of the flight.
 
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Okay, I have a couple of questions.

1) Let's say Geico has all of the minimum flight time he needs for any certificate he wants - As in, ATP minimums of 1500 TT, 500 XC, 100 night and 75 instrument - Then he's obviously not getting much by simply logging time. Would that make it OK? Now, let's say he doesn't even log it. Would that make it OK?

It would not be OK, as long as he logged the time. The FAA has determined that time is valuable, no matter what price you place on it.

2) I've gotten some free flight time (it's OK, I have my commercial, but let's just say I didn't for the purposes of this question) from my flying club, ferrying our airplanes to another airport for the purpose of having maintenance performed. I am an equity owner in the club, so technically I own a 1/30th share of all 3 airplanes. I may be flying the plane which is going for maintenance, or I may be flying the chase plane bringing the maintenance plane's pilot back (or taking them up to retrieve the plane after mx) - does it make a difference? Since I'm part owner of the planes, and am thus paying something indirectly towards their upkeep relieve me of the need for a commercial certificate?

If you paid for the flight it is not a compensation because you paid not the other members.

If the members paid for the flight you need a CP to fly the aircraft on that flight.


3) Let's say I'm a volunteer for a non-profit organization that owns an airplane. I've put a lot of work into said organization, and this plane needs to be promoted at airshows. Now, flying to airshows is certainly legal as long as I'm doing the promoting at the airshow and not just using the plane for to & from transportation, but what about getting checked out in the airplane beforehand?

As I read that, it's incidental. to your job as promoter, and no CPL required.

I can see why the FAA wants a commercial for time building because for a time builder flight time really is compensation (but what if it doesn't get logged?). For these other cases, it seems kind of silly.

I am hired to go get an aircraft, return it to where I can repair it. and am paid for the whole job. I can do this as a "incidental " to my job as mechanic. I recieve no direct compensation for the flight time.
 
Here's my take I think would sustain...


He doesn't hold the requisite certificate. That's all that counts.

No he does hold the required certificae to fly that aircraft, but he does not hold the proper certificate to charge for the service. = no compensation, no violation.

You're a member with a portion of ownership in the club or a small piece of partnership. That would be carrying out an action which would benefit yourself as a member of this group. It would be different if you were an outside party to the club and asked to ferry the aircraft.

If any one pays for your flight time it is compensation. how ever slight is not a factor.


I think the rule requiring a Commercial Pilot Certificate would apply. For example, those pilots who hold and care for aircraft for Tora Tora Tora get reimbursement for expenses during air show demonstrations as well as travel expenses. They don't get paid for time but certainly everything else is paid for. Those I know hold a commercial certificate and a couple do not hold an instrument rating.

If they are at a place they would not normally be, and they are there because of flying, they are being compensated.


That doesn't matter. It's assumed the pilot will log it. Hence, it's compensation.

The FAA will make no asumptions, they will have facts when they come for your certificate. they will have proof of the violation because Bob Hover taught them a lesson they won't soon forget.
 
What would they be checking that would indicate who paid for the flight? I've never been ramp checked but I assume they look at airworhiness and airman certifiation issues.

I'm not making a judgement about the legalities, but I don't see how a ramp check would reveal anything that would show who ultimately will be paying the cost of the flight.
Since tail number registration is of public record, that information can be easily had. If it doesn't match the name on the airman certificate and there doesn't appear to be a reasonable tie to a club or school as registered, it may draw some attention during a ramp check. It's then followed by questions of how that particular pilot came to be flying this aircraft. One wrong statement could nail ya.

I'm not saying that would indeed happen. But, the potential is there.
 
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