So we should skip a pleasurable experience just to better the financial gain of the herd? What if I just happen to be the density of one of those girls in Jakarta, I still have to pay her for the same reason?
Ferry Pilot Cost?
- Thread starter StinkBug
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So we should skip a pleasurable experience just to better the financial gain of the herd? What if I just happen to be the density of one of those girls in Jakarta, I still have to pay her for the same reason?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Your attempt to categorize anyone who will do a ferry flight for less than what you think it should go for as having shiny jet syndrome and trying to build hours for free and therefore ruining the industry. You were wrong about that, and your attempt to pigeonhole us failed.
EdFred
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Your definition of fair and others definition of fair are not necessarily the same. I fly for fun and enjoyment, so a fair price for me happens to be much lower. If I don't have to pay for it, to me, that's fair.
James331
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Mines not, but to the initial question, there are enough high time ATPs who will do it for 50 to 100 more a day than a low time guy, you'd be a fool to hire a CPL to do the job of a ATP.
I know some of the dumb crap I didn't know as a 250, 500, 750hr CPL that I know now, it's the weather, the mountain work, the having a engine failure, all that pilot experience, for ferry work just get a ATP, it's worth the extra money, heck you'll spend more on one nights bar tab.
Nothing, it's kinda a silly argument to use an ATP to ferry a GA plane considering nobody with a lick of sense is going to fly the thing IFR as an unknown quantity. I would treat it as a "ferry flight" Day VFR. It's summer, I can make it direct in 2-3 days staying underneath. That's utility pilot work, not airline pilot work.
Oh, if your PP buddy rented the plane from you for the flight, that makes it legal.
SkyDog58
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Within CONUS for the average pilot in the typical GA plane that is currently in an airworthy condition? Nothing. And I believe that sort of mission is what the OP had in mind along with most of the follow-up posters. Unfortunately, the expert what-if-ers just like to complicate things.
StinkBug
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Nothing, it's kinda a silly argument to use an ATP to ferry a GA plane considering nobody with a lick of sense is going to fly the thing IFR as an unknown quantity. I would treat it as a "ferry flight" Day VFR. It's summer, I can make it direct in 2-3 days staying underneath. That's utility pilot work, not airline pilot work.
Oh, if your PP buddy rented the plane from you for the flight, that makes it legal.
Thank you, and thank you. I knew I couldn't ask a simple question without some people trying to complicate things.
The question is simple guys. Get basic airplane from point A to point B safely and legally. What is a fair rate to pay the pilot?
Personally, I'd rather see someone who's a 500hr CFI who flies nothing but 172s all day fly this newly acquired hypothetical 172 than a 25000hr ATP who hasn't seen anything smaller than a regional jet in years. Experience matters, but so does recency of experience in type. And yeah, I'd expect anyone doing this flight to consider it a day VFR ferry flight of an unknown aircraft.
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The reality is you should fly the thing.
SkyDog58
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I can agree with that and when you made your initial post, my initial thought was to suggest that you speak to you favorite CFI and see if he wanted to make the trip. You could pay him what he normally gets per hour instructing plus cover expenses. You'd get a competent pilot for a good price and he would probably really enjoy doing it.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
StinkBug
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At my CFI's hourly rate that would be one very expensive flight.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Who the hell knows. I could go take an ATP checkride tomorrow if I so desired but I seriously doubt doing so is going to increase my ability to fly a simple cherokee or 172 across the country which is something I already do a pretty regular basis.
An ATP that has spent the last 10,000 hours flying jets in the upper end of the flight levels and hasn't been in a single piston in the last couple decades is certainly not going to be more qualified and the vast majority of them would admit that. The idea of crossing the rockies in an old spam can seems pretty foolish to many of them
denverpilot
Tied Down
By the way, paying to move airplanes is for the birds. Catch a commercial flight for less than the cost of the ferry pilot and go bring it home yourself. Seriously. You didn't buy it for someone else to fly it.
StinkBug
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When I bought my Mooney I flew it home myself. This thread is not about how I would do it though.
There are plenty of situations and reasons for paying to get the job done though. Someone who makes more at their day job than the cost of having the plane moved. Doesn't make sense to take the time off. Also someone who isn't yet a qualified pilot, who is buying a plane to learn in.
There are plenty of situations and reasons for paying to get the job done though. Someone who makes more at their day job than the cost of having the plane moved. Doesn't make sense to take the time off. Also someone who isn't yet a qualified pilot, who is buying a plane to learn in.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
If you are going to pay a CFI to fly it back, you might as well go with, work on your IFR at the same time.
I'm not a CPL, but I did just complete a round trip from SE Florida to Oregon, doing it in 2-3 days would make for some looonnnnnggg days in a 172, I would plan on 5 days, about 600 miles, 2 legs per day, 6 hrs of flying a day. You want to have fun after all
I'm not a CPL, but I did just complete a round trip from SE Florida to Oregon, doing it in 2-3 days would make for some looonnnnnggg days in a 172, I would plan on 5 days, about 600 miles, 2 legs per day, 6 hrs of flying a day. You want to have fun after all
VanDy
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I charge $200 a day plus expenses, I know im on the lower side of prices, but i do it for fun/hobby more than a day job, and i figure i'll get more flights this way. I took a no-electric 1940 Piper J5 from Dayton, Ohio to California over this past 4th of July weekend. Earlier this year I took a 1942 Aeronca L3 from Houston to Dayton, and I leave tomorrow to go pick up a 1946 Aeronca champ in Denver and bring back to Ohio. No better way to see the country! I have write ups on my trips on my website (in my signature line) and threads on here.
Mike Smith
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I asked my instructor about going with me to Maryland to bring a Cherokee 140 that I'm thinking of buying back to Alabama. His price was 150 per day plus expenses.
In any particular part of the country there is a going rate for pilots. Fair for me would include the going rate and pilot qualifications. In my part of the country a low time commercial pilot (perhaps less than 1500) flying a simple airplane, $200 a day plus expenses might be fair. I would not do it for that but, it might be fair for some pilots. If you are a commercial pilot you deserve to be compensated for your time and to not be compensated is unfair to you the pilot and the rest of the commercial pilot community.(JMO) If you don't want to be compensated then don't work as a pilot. Having said that I will defend your right to work for nothing I just think it is a bad idea. A whore and a prostitute does the same thing except one is by definition a professional. Which do you want to be?
To the OP you should pay a rate consistent with the pilot qualifications, make and model of aircraft being ferried, and what qualifications you desire. If you are ferrying a simple fixed gear then a $200-$300 a day pilot should be fine. If you are ferrying a KA200 then the pilot is going to need to be insurance qualified which normally includes current sim school and you could expect something more in the $400-$500 per day range. So the answer to your question is it depends.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I fully agree that is the best and certainly cheapest way and have done that with all my airplanes, but sometimes a buyer just doesn't have the time in their schedule to fly a 100kt bug smasher coast to coast.By the way, paying to move airplanes is for the birds. Catch a commercial flight for less than the cost of the ferry pilot and go bring it home yourself. Seriously. You didn't buy it for someone else to fly it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
That's the thing though. I'm getting paid for my vacation time from job #1, and making a little on the side. Plus I'm not paying $65/hr in fuel to fly my own plane. So, let's say I am to ferry a Comanche from Florida to Michigan, and it takes 6 hours to do so.
$200 for my day fee (comm flight down one day, over night, inspect and fly back the next)
$800 I get paid in vacation time from my regular job ( 2 days worth and I'm not using it anyway)
$400 I'm not paying for in fuel to do the same flight in my plane.
So, in essence, I'm getting paid $1400 bucks in compensation do it - which is well above your $400 that you would do it for.
Bonchie
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It's really easy for guys who've got the ratings and time (many of whom got them back in the 90's when it was much cheaper to do so) to lecture others on not flying at reduced rates.
It's a lot tougher to do for a low-time CPL who desperately needs a way to build time to get a good job down the road. Meanwhile, the same ones lecturing are the guys taking all those $400/day jobs and insisting you should use a 3000 hour ATP to ferry a fixed gear piston.
It's a lot tougher to do for a low-time CPL who desperately needs a way to build time to get a good job down the road. Meanwhile, the same ones lecturing are the guys taking all those $400/day jobs and insisting you should use a 3000 hour ATP to ferry a fixed gear piston.
BS reasoning and you know it. The $ 800 has nothing to do with the flight. That is compensation for your regular job. You get that for setting at home in your recliner if you choose. $400 for fuel doing the same flight in your plane?? What? No comment because that makes no sense. I am not sure what the $200 day fee is. Your whole response is gobbley gook.
Like I said I would defend your right to fly for free. I would advocate nothing to prevent you choosing the role of whore over the role of prostitute. It would be no different than a person offering to do your job for free because they have the time and enjoy that kind of work. What would it do to your day job if 25% of the people doing similar work or for that matter people off the street started doing that work for free just because they enjoy it.
You want to be the whore, that is fine. My only point was to point out how it hurts the profession not to prevent you from doing it.
Muttley was simply pointing out how much damage is done in this profession from self inflicted wounds. If you don't want to get paid for flying then don't get a commercial and stick to private flying. Getting a commercial and flying for free is a little like a woman staking out a corner, getting the high heel shoes lining up a pimp for protection and then giving it a way because she enjoys it. Just does not make sense. (IMO)
Enough thread drift, to each their own.
Reduced rates are different than flying free. In my original post I said that your rate should reflect your experience. That is true capitalism. Charging $250 because you are a low time pilot is fine and does not hurt the profession.
Your reduced rates in the 90's remark is a straw man. When I started flying in the late late 70's I was making just over $6/hr in a non aviation job which was good money in my neck of the woods. A 172 went for $27-$30 per hour wet. That same job today pays $30+ per hour and has better benefits. That is six times the pay. What does a wet 172 go for now? All of us who were trying to make it in aviation had similar struggles. I flew crap airplanes for crap pay. The crap pay was in part due to those willing to be whores. Being a prostitute is bad enough, I refuse to be a whore. Some make it up to the call girl status but, you have to s*** a lot of poles to get there. Again JMO.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
BS reasoning and you know it. The $ 800 has nothing to do with the flight. That is compensation for your regular job. You get that for setting at home in your recliner if you choose. $400 for fuel doing the same flight in your plane?? What? No comment because that makes no sense. I am not sure what the $200 day fee is. Your whole response is gobbley gook.
Like I said I would defend your right to fly for free. I would advocate nothing to prevent you choosing the role of whore over the role of prostitute. It would be no different than a person offering to do your job for free because they have the time and enjoy that kind of work. What would it do to your day job if 25% of the people doing similar work or for that matter people off the street started doing that work for free just because they enjoy it.
You want to be the whore, that is fine. My only point was to point out how it hurts the profession not to prevent you from doing it.
Muttley was simply pointing out how much damage is done in this profession from self inflicted wounds. If you don't want to get paid for flying then don't get a commercial and stick to private flying. Getting a commercial and flying for free is a little like a woman staking out a corner, getting the high heel shoes lining up a pimp for protection and then giving it a way because she enjoys it. Just does not make sense. (IMO)
Enough thread drift, to each their own.
Not BS reasoning at all, you're just upset someone will do something for a lower price than you think they should. It's that way for EVERYTHING. I know a guy that does amazing metal work, and does it for nearly free because he's got down time, and wants to fill it. Are you bitching about that? No. You'd jump all over that deal vs going to a specialty shop that charges 10 times what he does.
But seeing that $100(per day as I said earlier in the thread) x 2 (days as mentioned in the post you quoted) = $200 is too difficult for you to figure out, it's no wonder you can't see where someone WHO IS NOT DOING IT FOR THE MONEY OR A FULL TIME JOB is coming from.
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Bonchie
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The problem with flying is that (for pilots at least) it's actually fun and something they are passionate about.
It's like the dude who loves the beach and is willing to work for $10 an hour teaching surfing. Or the charter captain who makes peanuts to stay on the sea. Or a mountain guide who does what it takes to live where he's happy.
To me, it's selfish to tell a guy "don't do what you love unless you charge enough to benefit me!!" EdFred doesn't owe anyone but himself anything.
In a perfect world, pilots would be highly paid across the board, but I don't think that's realistic for the jobs like ferrying small planes or CFI work.
Eventually, with enough work and passion you can get into a great job flying airplanes. In the meantime, they'll always be the slog to get the time and hours. Because experience is the key to those better jobs, they'll always be a highly competitive market doing the lower end jobs and pushing pay down.
And the market isn't such that you can simply collude into higher pay. 1) such collusion is unrealistic to organize across an entire market sector, and 2) the market will only pay what it thinks something is worth. If all pilots got together and decided you must charge $400 a day no matter what to ferry a PA-28, it'd just mean less people would buy planes requiring ferrying long distances.
It's like the dude who loves the beach and is willing to work for $10 an hour teaching surfing. Or the charter captain who makes peanuts to stay on the sea. Or a mountain guide who does what it takes to live where he's happy.
To me, it's selfish to tell a guy "don't do what you love unless you charge enough to benefit me!!" EdFred doesn't owe anyone but himself anything.
In a perfect world, pilots would be highly paid across the board, but I don't think that's realistic for the jobs like ferrying small planes or CFI work.
Eventually, with enough work and passion you can get into a great job flying airplanes. In the meantime, they'll always be the slog to get the time and hours. Because experience is the key to those better jobs, they'll always be a highly competitive market doing the lower end jobs and pushing pay down.
And the market isn't such that you can simply collude into higher pay. 1) such collusion is unrealistic to organize across an entire market sector, and 2) the market will only pay what it thinks something is worth. If all pilots got together and decided you must charge $400 a day no matter what to ferry a PA-28, it'd just mean less people would buy planes requiring ferrying long distances.
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StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
My primary income comes from building custom vehicles and metal fabrication. It's a job I enjoy and also do in my spare time on my own projects. If one of my friends stops by the shop with a project I find interesting I'll often work on it for free just because I want to. That is my day job, but I choose to do it for free and that's my right. So my buddy is getting a deal, so what? That's the beauty of having friends who can help you out. I'm betting all you guys saying pilots shouldn't fly for free wouldn't have any issue with one of their friends offering to fix their car, or something on their house if that was their profession. People do favors for each other, and sometimes they aren't even friends. Barter is one of the greatest systems in the world because it cant be taxed.
None of that really applies to the original question, but since people seem to get in such a twist over it....
None of that really applies to the original question, but since people seem to get in such a twist over it....
Ravioli
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I got lucky... the seller flew it to me and I rode along. He paid for the fuel (45 gals) and I put him up at my place for the night and provided his commercial ticket home.
He got 7 last hours in the plane, I got to play with the systems and did some of stick work. And he's a nice guy who I look forward to seeing next week at OSH and whenever I'm in Phoenix.
Lots of options out there. Just logisitics
He got 7 last hours in the plane, I got to play with the systems and did some of stick work. And he's a nice guy who I look forward to seeing next week at OSH and whenever I'm in Phoenix.
Lots of options out there. Just logisitics
There's always "helping a buddy out", nobody really cares. The thing is, if you don't have a CPL, and the dude you beat out of paying work with a CPL goes to the FSDO, now you might have opened a pretty insignificant can of dead worms that won't lead anywhere. Worst that would happen is the guy from the FSDO will talk to you and tell you not to do it anymore until you have your CPL.
JoseCuervo
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RE: Flying for Free
It is interesting that in Aviation there is this outcry about people discounting their rate/labour to "build a business".
I started another company in January (to go along with the other bazillion things I have going on).
I have worked untold hours in the evenings, weekends, early mornings, etc to build this business. And, I will be more than happy to "work my ass off" for the next 2-3 years without any pay, so that in years 4-20 I might have a significant income / cash generator.
I can't imagine anybody telling me that starting my own business and not requiring $50 an hour for my time.
But, if I was to tell some one my business is "JoseCuervo CPL/ATP Llc", I would be attacked for whoring out the profession.
It is interesting that in Aviation there is this outcry about people discounting their rate/labour to "build a business".
I started another company in January (to go along with the other bazillion things I have going on).
I have worked untold hours in the evenings, weekends, early mornings, etc to build this business. And, I will be more than happy to "work my ass off" for the next 2-3 years without any pay, so that in years 4-20 I might have a significant income / cash generator.
I can't imagine anybody telling me that starting my own business and not requiring $50 an hour for my time.
But, if I was to tell some one my business is "JoseCuervo CPL/ATP Llc", I would be attacked for whoring out the profession.
colojo
Line Up and Wait
$100 per flight hour.
OK, now I understand you ARE charging $100/day which is not free just discounted. As your personal attack insinuated, I am kind of slow I just did not understand that the $100 per day was what you were actually charging with all the red herring numbers scattered about, my bad. I don't know anything about you and that could be all you are worth
but, it is not for free. As Henning said, "doing something for a buddy" is of course a different story. I have done that. I don't hold out for free. My point is there would be no expectation of free work except for those who hold out for free. Would it be as enjoyable if you were paid $200/day? Again how would you feel if 25% of the work force in your field started doing your work for free? Would that drive down your wages?
I certainly understand the motive. Free flying, either for fun or trying to build time. The PP trying to slip a little free time past the feds is one thing but a CPL I believe should at least think about what he is doing to the profession. JMO
You can have the last word then back to our originally scheduled programming.
No, you'd be slutting up the profession.
It's the whores that don't want you giving it away for free.
Bonchie
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Bonchie
OK, now I understand you ARE charging $100/day which is not free just discounted. As your personal attack insinuated, I am kind of slow I just did not understand that the $100 per day was what you were actually charging with all the red herring numbers scattered about, my bad. I don't know anything about you and that could be all you are worth
As Henning said, "doing something for a buddy" is of course a different story. I have done that. I don't hold out for free. My point is there would be no expectation of free work except for those who hold out for free. Would it be as enjoyable if you were paid $200/day? Again how would you feel if 25% of the work force in your field started doing your work for free? Would that drive down your wages?
I certainly understand the motive. Free flying, either for fun or trying to build time. The PP trying to slip a little free time past the feds is one thing but a CPL I believe should at least think about what he is doing to the profession. JMO
You can have the last word then back to our originally scheduled programming.
Honestly, that's not unusual.
Many major sectors use unpaid interns who "do their time" for years before getting actual paying work. And yes, those would otherwise be paid positions for someone. But the upper realms of the profession demand experience that couldn't otherwise be garnered without working for nothing or for peanuts.
To me, that's not that much different then a low-time CPL doing whatever it takes to get the experience to actually get a good paying job.
The pilot market is setup to reward hours. A much better low-time guy has no chance over a worse pilot with more hours usually (until you reach ATP at least). So you are left with what we have. A system that forces guys to fly for free or almost nothing to get to 500-700 hours where they can actually get a job that finally lets them buy some raman noodles. It's easy to say they should think about the profession before taking free hours, but who's out there hiring 250 hour CPLs for the most part?
The other alternative is to CFI, but not everyone is cut out to teach.
I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying I understand it. Every year you don't have the minimums to get a decent job is another year of life you can't get back. So getting their as quickly as possible is a priority.
The ATP is now a golden ticket because of the Colgan reforms and I can't blame guys for doing whatever it takes to get it quickly.
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tlglenn
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I'm trying to get to 1500 hours by next July so I'd do it for expenses. I'd just use vacation time from my regular job. Of course, after next July, I might not be as generous
I have over 240 hours in C172s and over 510 in C182s and C182RGs. Should reach 1000TT within a month.
I have over 240 hours in C172s and over 510 in C182s and C182RGs. Should reach 1000TT within a month.
German guy
Cleared for Takeoff
How much does a young CFI, working for a flight school, get paid per hour? $15? $20?
Only $200 / day + expenses would be a great deal for him / her. A nice long cross country is also for most people more fun than patternwork with some student pilot.
As somebody else already stated - I would rather give our 172 to some young dude who needs to build time and who has a couple hundred hours of experience in 172s than to an ATP, who flies most of the time IFR in a jet and who does it just for the money. Insurance would be no issue, our policy requires the pilot to only have a minimum of 300 h, I assume that other policies are similar.
And then there are people, like Ed, who have another source of income and who would do certain trips just for the fun of it with minimal compensation.
The heck - if somebody would ask me to take a spam on a really nice trip, which is too far for a 2-way trip during my vacation, like Alaska, the West Coast or maybe even Europe, I would actually be willing to cover some of the expenses myself. Assuming of course, that I can take my wife with me and that we can turn it into a vacation trip.
Only $200 / day + expenses would be a great deal for him / her. A nice long cross country is also for most people more fun than patternwork with some student pilot.
As somebody else already stated - I would rather give our 172 to some young dude who needs to build time and who has a couple hundred hours of experience in 172s than to an ATP, who flies most of the time IFR in a jet and who does it just for the money. Insurance would be no issue, our policy requires the pilot to only have a minimum of 300 h, I assume that other policies are similar.
And then there are people, like Ed, who have another source of income and who would do certain trips just for the fun of it with minimal compensation.
The heck - if somebody would ask me to take a spam on a really nice trip, which is too far for a 2-way trip during my vacation, like Alaska, the West Coast or maybe even Europe, I would actually be willing to cover some of the expenses myself. Assuming of course, that I can take my wife with me and that we can turn it into a vacation trip.
German guy
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm trying to get to 1500 hours by next July so I'd do it for expenses. I'd just use vacation time from my regular job. Of course, after next July, I might not be as generous
I have over 240 hours in C172s and over 510 in C182s and C182RGs. Should reach 1000TT within a month.
Maybe you want to get in touch with a few dealers / brokers. I would think that they regularly have customers asking for ferry services.
We flew our 172 home from Florida to Michigan, with a stop in New Orleans - I was really surprised about how many people told us that they would have hired a ferry pilot for this trip, because they a.) did generally not feel capable of such a flight and / or b.) would not have felt safe to do it in a new to them airplane.