Feds: "Pilots have no rights" - Really?

greghughes said:
I'd like to know who taught that class.
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Probably the same folks that taught TSA screeners at airports to tell passengers that they have NO constitutional rights at the checkpoints.
 
The agents in charge of the training, he continued, “taught those attending class how to lie to pilots and use ‘ramp checks’ as a cover to search any aircraft that sits on a ramp.”
 
What if they are right? What if somehow we accidentally, or without realizing it, gave away our rights?
 
RyanShort1 said:
What if they are right? What if somehow we accidentally, or without realizing it, gave away our rights?
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Then we need to take them back.

The rights we're talking about are not conferred, after all. They are inherent and inalienable. Otherwise they'd be called entitlements...

They are also individual rights. "We" don't give up "our" rights. I never gave mine up, not did I ever tell someone they had power to do so on my behalf.
 
greghughes said:
Then we need to take them back.

The rights we're talking about are not conferred, after all. They are inherent and inalienable. Otherwise they'd be called entitlements...

They are also individual rights. "We" don't give up "our" rights. I never gave mine up, not did I ever tell someone they had power to do so on my behalf.
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Agreed, of course, but in their theories, aren't "contracts" ways that one can give up a right? They make an offer and you accept it...
 
Be polite, be professional, show the documents that you are required to (certificate, medical, airworthiness and registration, weigh and balance/POH), then, politely decline any request to look inside the aircraft or your personal belongings.

Remember, you know the rules and regulations related to aviation better than you friendly local fed storm trooper. Keep it civil, take notes, be polite. They are the one standing there in the sun sweating wearing body armor. :-)
 
N2124v said:
Be polite, be professional, show the documents that you are required to (certificate, medical, airworthiness and registration, weigh and balance/POH), then, politely decline any request to look inside the aircraft or your personal belongings.

Remember, you know the rules and regulations related to aviation better than you friendly local fed storm trooper. Keep it civil, take notes, be polite. They are the one standing there in the sun sweating wearing body armor. :-)
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Yes do those things while you are face down on the pavement with guns pointed at you. Good chance if they want to search your plane you will be storm trooped.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Yes do those things while you are face down on the pavement with guns pointed at you. Good chance if they want to search your plane you will be storm trooped.
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More than likely if you are professional and calm that won't happen.
 
Hmm, if my airplane belongs to the FAA and is not my personal possession, I guess I'll upgrade to a TBM 850 and just bill it to the FAA.
 
N2124v said:
Be polite, be professional, show the documents that you are required to (certificate, medical, airworthiness and registration, weigh and balance/POH), then, politely decline any request to look inside the aircraft or your personal belongings.

Remember, you know the rules and regulations related to aviation better than you friendly local fed storm trooper. Keep it civil, take notes, be polite. They are the one standing there in the sun sweating wearing body armor. :-)
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If they believe that have probable cause they'll search with or without consent - no sweat for them. But it doesn't hurt to decline consent.
 
Jim Logajan said:
If they believe that have probable cause they'll search with or without consent - no sweat for them. But it doesn't hurt to decline consent.
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Always refuse to consent. Make them come up with probable cause, and give you a cause of action. If you consent, you have no recourse whatsoever.
 
N2124v said:
More than likely if you are professional and calm that won't happen.
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White people are so cute. Didn't the Kings get the eat pavement while searched treatment? As did the bearded guy in the Cirrus, who knows how many that we haven't heard of. The glider guy spent the night in jail, he was nothing but polite. If they are in storm trooper mode your professional calm just makes you easier to rough up.
 
BS, it's sad we have people in this country that can point a lethal weapon at a law abiding US citizen flying a plane and feel like they are "protecting and serving"

I would recommend carrying a gopro just incase.

Also would be good to get some tracking info on their 210, it would be good if someone with the time and a fast enough plane (god knows mine isnt fast enough) to follow that 210 around and film some of these "ramp checks" All it takes is video getting on the news of these terrorists pulling some grandma and grandpa out of their Bo at gun point and public outrage will take care of the rest.
 
The only one that's done anything significant for us lately is Sen. Inhofe. Does anyone know his position on this?
 
NineThreeKilo said:
All it takes is video getting on the news of these terrorists pulling some grandma and grandpa out of their Bo at gun point and public outrage will take care of the rest.
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nope. plenty of video of that stuff out there, people don't care. they just assume it only happens to coloreds or people from the other side of the tracks.
 
ClimbnSink said:
White people are so cute. Didn't the Kings get the eat pavement while searched treatment? As did the bearded guy in the Cirrus, who knows how many that we haven't heard of. The glider guy spent the night in jail, he was nothing but polite. If they are in storm trooper mode your professional calm just makes you easier to rough up.
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Kings were in a slightly different situation
 
The problem is there is no way to stop it. We can sue [and AOPA should] on behalf of the pilots stopped - but sooner or later someone is going to get killed by some overzealous officer.

The FAA controls the operation of the aircraft through its regulations. It does not have search authority for contents. The contents are not part of what the FAA regulates.

This one is simple: however - getting a court to say that- in an appropriate situation - is going to be hard given the stupid and restrictive rules the courts have placed for government to be challenged. Once needs an actual controversy - instead of a policy and procedure which violates the law in theory.
 
PilotAlan said:
Always refuse to consent. Make them come up with probable cause, and give you a cause of action. If you consent, you have no recourse whatsoever.
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I will say this with all respect . . . if a black suited LEO with an automatic weapon is pointed it at you . . . it becomes very very hard to say no.

Then, since you have no drugs or contraband on board, you have no claim to having your rights violated and no real defense.

If you do bring a 1981 or 1983 claim against the alphabet soup of agencies, they will settle it. They will force you to take the settlement. Then your case will be dismissed since you now have no claim. The same thing has happened to every single claim brought against TSA or DHS on the no-fly list. They settle 0 you have no case - no one every examines their actions from a Constitutional perspective.

Yes. They will settle. I know it to be true. I have seen it with my own eyes. And I remain gagged from speaking about it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
nope. plenty of video of that stuff out there, people don't care. they just assume it only happens to coloreds or people from the other side of the tracks.
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Or "rich" pilots!
 
Skylane81E said:
No, THEY didn't, but the LEOs on scene were operating on bad information.
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mistakes were made, at least the cops went home safe that night. big mistake being it was white people famous in their industry, good thing no one cares.
 
ClimbnSink said:
mistakes were made, at least the cops went home safe that night. big mistake being it was white people famous in their industry, good thing no one cares.
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Yes, it is good the cops went home, it is good the kings went home.

It is a damned shame it took an event like that to expose the failure of the system.
 
ClimbnSink said:
nope. plenty of video of that stuff out there, people don't care. they just assume it only happens to coloreds or people from the other side of the tracks.
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Yea, that's why I said VIDEO.

You say there are plenty of videos of people being pulled out of their aircraft due to this??? could you please post em, I havent been able to find a single video of these terrorist ICE/DHS shenanigans
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Yea, that's why I said VIDEO.

You say there are plenty of videos of people being pulled out of their aircraft due to this??? could you please post em, I havent been able to find a single video of these terrorist ICE/DHS shenanigans
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See there is the problem right there, you only care when it happens to people in airplanes. Tons of video(right there on youtube, most of it from news clips) of people getting whacked by the cops in their cars and homes, some of them are even white and live in neighborhoods just like yours. No I'm not aware of any GA pilot executions by cop on video.
 
Jim Logajan said:
If they believe that have probable cause they'll search with or without consent - no sweat for them. But it doesn't hurt to decline consent.
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I agree... it will probably mean more time you have to spend with this nonsense, and like the Kings and the glider pilot who "terrorized" a power plant, you may be cuffed and detained without actually being charged with anything, then held "on ice" until you can be interro-I mean, questioned by the Gesta- er, I mean the DHS. Might even wind up asserting your rights in court... it could be messy, protracted, and expensive.

But it's worth it, on principle. Just have to ask yourself: what is "innocent until proven guilty" and other search, seizure and arrest laws worth to you? How much time? How much money? How much inconvenience, discomfort or embarrassment? Is it worth your life, to you or society as a whole?
Also, they might treat you like they have an Iraq War playing card with your picture on it even if you do play along. If we say "well, they have guns, so I better smile and nod and be quiet", well, our rights are already worthless, and we are all just "guilty until proven innocent." The guns are supposed to be for the LEOs protection, not to coerce you into waiving your rights. Granted, if you make them nervous, they might shoot you. But it shouldn't unnerve them if you say "I don't consent to any of this without a warrant or probable cause, and I will answer no questions without a lawyer." If they are not showing an armed presence that suggests they've mistaken you for hard-bit desperados like the Kings, it should be possible to say "am I under arrest? No? OK, bye."

The bottom line is we can't afford to make this sort of thing easy for them. They might still get away with this crap even if pilots refuse consent, protest, sue, etc... but they will definitely get away with it if we play along with LEOs who are creating the appearance of having more authority (and evidence or probable cause) than they really possess.
If it ever happens to me, I will resist peacefully, but I will not consent.
 
rottydaddy said:
I agree... it will probably mean more time you have to spend with this nonsense, and like the Kings and the glider pilot who "terrorized" a power plant, you may be cuffed and detained without actually being charged with anything, then held "on ice" until you can be interro-I mean, questioned by the Gesta- er, I mean the DHS. Might even wind up asserting your rights in court... it could be messy, protracted, and expensive.

But it's worth it, on principle. Just have to ask yourself: what is "innocent until proven guilty" and other search, seizure and arrest laws worth to you? How much time? How much money? How much inconvenience, discomfort or embarrassment? Is it worth your life, to you or society as a whole?
Also, they might treat you like they have an Iraq War playing card with your picture on it even if you do play along. If we say "well, they have guns, so I better smile and nod and be quiet", well, our rights are already worthless, and we are all just "guilty until proven innocent." The guns are supposed to be for the LEOs protection, not to coerce you into waiving your rights. Granted, if you make them nervous, they might shoot you. But it shouldn't unnerve them if you say "I don't consent to any of this without a warrant or probable cause, and I will answer no questions without a lawyer." If they are not showing an armed presence that suggests they've mistaken you for hard-bit desperados like the Kings, it should be possible to say "am I under arrest? No? OK, bye."

The bottom line is we can't afford to make this sort of thing easy for them. They might still get away with this crap even if pilots refuse consent, protest, sue, etc... but they will definitely get away with it if we play along with LEOs who are creating the appearance of having more authority (and evidence or probable cause) than they really possess.
If it ever happens to me, I will resist peacefully, but I will not consent.
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Very well said!
 
Around 1960 the Yankees had a pitcher by the name of Ryne Duren. He had a fastball better than 100 mph, but had very little control over where it was going. And he wore thick eyeglasses because his vision was terrible. And he drank a lot. That information all worked to his advantage, because needless to say, batters were reluctant to dig in on him.

Something tells me that DHS and CBP are taking a similar approach to keep us all a little off balance. They want the flying public (and potential bad guys) to think that on any given weekend they're likely to get the full treatment, and that the Feds running the operation are just a little crazy and out of control.

Could they be leaking these reports intentionally ... ?

:dunno: :skeptical:

(Our transparent and open government wouldn't do such a thing, though, would it?)

:rofl:
 
I know there is a lot of contraband being transported by GA, so much that the boys are being proactive about it. I the criminals are hearing about this, or happen to be the lucky airplane that just landed and saw Joe Schmoe getting checked, this will be a deterrence.

Just being visible can be a deterrent as a LEO. Traffic stops, when most motorist seen one they may slow down for a few miles or so.

Just because you are not under arrest does not mean you can just go. There is detainment. I also think it would be neat to fly a citation as a fed, patrolling the skies.
 
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Corpsmaide said:
I know there is a lot of contraband being transported by GA, so much that the boys are being proactive about it. I the criminals are hearing about this, or happen to be the lucky airplane that just landed and saw Joe Schmoe getting checked, this will be a deterrence.

Just being visible can be a deterrent as a LEO. Traffic stops, when most motorist seen one they may slow down for a few miles or so.

Just because you are not under arrest does not mean you can just go. There is detainment. I also think it would be neat to fly a citation as a fed, patrolling the skies.
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There likely is some contraband being transported via GA to say "a lot" well I haven't heard that or seen evidence of it I know that there was an arrest in a county just west of here and a successful prosecution of a pilot who bought Meth into my county but that was done by our County DA without the assistance of the Feds and the probable cause was obtained by good police work on the ground not an alphabet agency burning Jet A because its "neat" patrolling the skies.

I'm curious as to where the disconnect is, because if there is a "lot" of contraband being transported by GA then why do the feds come up with so many goose eggs.

I don't want to go off half cocked here so let me ask first, are you suggesting that it is ok for law enforcement to stop, interrogate, and search GA pilots who have done nothing wrong based solely on their direction of flight or other poor excuse for probable cause because it would act as a deterrent to GA pilots who might do nefarious deeds?
 
I think the amount of contraband is likely regional.

On the other point I don't mind LE being "visible" at airports, or even being proactive so long as they act respectfully of everyone's rights. Letting potential smugglers know that airplanes aren't a sure bet to successfully transport their goods is fine and dandy.

If a LEO wants to have a chat while I gas up the plane, sure. If he wants to ask to search the plane, fine, but accept my no. If they remember that what they are doing is no different than taking to people at a gas station or highway rest area and act accordingly...
 
Corpsmaide said:
I know there is a lot of contraband being transported by GA, so much that the boys are being proactive about it. I the criminals are hearing about this, or happen to be the lucky airplane that just landed and saw Joe Schmoe getting checked, this will be a deterrence.

Just being visible can be a deterrent as a LEO. Traffic stops, when most motorist seen one they may slow down for a few miles or so.

Just because you are not under arrest does not mean you can just go. There is detainment. I also think it would be neat to fly a citation as a fed, patrolling the skies.
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You "know" that? Would you like to share some stats?

Detainment has a limited scope. So far, we don't have a solid number to go on because as yet the SCOTUS hasn't seen fit to define it. However, it cannot be indefinite, and it cannot be punitive. If we go by the actions in Gitmo, it appears that detainment can last up to 12 years without charges. This is, of course ridiculous but kinda shows where the feds are going. If we go back to WWII, some Americans of Japanese descent were 'detained' for > 3 years.

What's more important in the detainment category is some kind of cause. Absent cause, detainment more than a few hours is going to be a problem, and for some noisy folks with access to criminal attys, it's going to be a big problem.
 
Corpsmaide said:
I know there is a lot of contraband being transported by GA, so much that the boys are being proactive about it. I the criminals are hearing about this, or happen to be the lucky airplane that just landed and saw Joe Schmoe getting checked, this will be a deterrence.

Just being visible can be a deterrent as a LEO. Traffic stops, when most motorist seen one they may slow down for a few miles or so.

Just because you are not under arrest does not mean you can just go. There is detainment. I also think it would be neat to fly a citation as a fed, patrolling the skies.
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"The agents teaching the course admitted during instruction that the stops had a very low rate of success in finding drug traffickers. Our source said one agent admitted that the stops involved “a lot of empty work "

I guess flying is the new DWB.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/06/11/3445890/leonard-pitts-conning-americans.html
 
N2124v said:
Be polite, be professional, show the documents that you are required to (certificate, medical, airworthiness and registration, weigh and balance/POH), then, politely decline any request to look inside the aircraft or your personal belongings.

Remember, you know the rules and regulations related to aviation better than you friendly local fed storm trooper. Keep it civil, take notes, be polite. They are the one standing there in the sun sweating wearing body armor. :-)
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Just remember, do not try and stop the search, going on the record as not giving permission to search may be enough to offer some protection later. Do nothing to impeade them, that will get you in more hot water than you will want. As was said "Be polite, be professional".
 
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