FedEx 705 simulation- gave me the chills

Clark1961 said:
That just proves the FFDO program is an effective deterrent....or that the program uses a funky firearm securing system which leads to negligent discharges...
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The other MAJOR issue is the non constitutional states you will be landing in with a side arm, until we can get the nationwide concealed carry passed, for the guys I've talked to, carrying is more of a pain in the arse than it's worth.

A full steam swung DD FAA required maglite to the nose will work well and you don't need to be worried about being kidnapped/assaulted or killed by cops for having a flashlight.
 
Let's avoid having the gun talk turn spin zone...
 
James331 said:
The other MAJOR issue is the non constitutional states you will be landing in with a side arm, until we can get the nationwide concealed carry passed, for the guys I've talked to, carrying is more of a pain in the arse than it's worth.

A full steam swung DD FAA required maglite to the nose will work well and you don't need to be worried about being kidnapped/assaulted or killed by cops for having a flashlight.
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It's a Federal program, and the weapon has to be secured outside of the cockpit. There's no problem landing anywhere in the USA with local authorities. But yes, many airline pilots don't mess with it d ueto being a pain. I didn't carry and go through the program for the training myself, but I know plenty who did.
 
Norman said:
But does that mean their employer has to allow them to be armed? It all goes back to "I would rather be judeged by twelve than carried by six".
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They do have to allow it, many don't like it though. It's entirely voluntary on a pilot to choose to go into the program though.
 
Clark1961 said:
One of the stories out there is that the trigger lock is a pia and they are required to use it before disembarking. Supposedly the ND on the Denver-Charlotte flight happened while the FFDO was securing the weapon. I have no idea if the story is true.

Anyway, I agree that guns aren’t really show n tell items inflight. Drink coffee and snooze while the autopilot takes you to a destination. That’s what I do when I don’t have pax that are talking alla time n disturbing my slumber.
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Clark,

I don't play "show and tell". Most have no need to know whether I am carrying or not. My deputy friends know and that is all that counts. The Sheeple can just go on their merry way thinking they will be protected. Then they encounter a situation are not prepared to meet and beg for help.
 
James331 said:
The other MAJOR issue is the non constitutional states you will be landing in with a side arm, until we can get the nationwide concealed carry passed, for the guys I've talked to, carrying is more of a pain in the arse than it's worth.
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Without going into politics about guns, it has to be a bit of a pain to take proper care of a handgun when FFDOs are traveling. Leaving it in a hotel room while going out for dinner would not be my first choice. Do hotels even have safe deposit boxes anymore? The in-room safes don’t impress me much but they’re better than nothing.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's avoid having the gun talk turn spin zone...
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Ted,

Not trying to get into the Spin Zone, just making a case for safety of both commercial and freight flights. IMO flight deck crew should have the right to defend themselves by any many means possible.
 
Norman said:
But does that mean their employer has to allow them to be armed? It all goes back to "I would rather be judeged by twelve than carried by six".
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Yea there’s a bunch of restrictions. For me, it wasn’t worth it to get. You have to go for initial training for a week in NM and I’m pretty sure there is recurrent training . It’s all on your time. Company won’t give you off for it specifically. So you’ll either have to burn vacation time or hope you’re senior enough to get the required days off when you bid for it.
 
Norman said:
Clark,

I don't play "show and tell". Most have no need to know whether I am carrying or not. My deputy friends know and that is all that counts. The Sheeple can just go on their merry way thinking they will be protected. Then they encounter a situation are not prepared to meet and beg for help.
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I have no interest in discussing politics or arguments about guns or laws regarding guns. I’m happy to discuss safe handling and care of guns. I also think there are valid reasons to discuss when to have a gun on a flight while avoiding political arguments. I carry on just about every flight over the mountains since a gun is an excellent signaling device and cellphone coverage is still spotty once away from state highways. I also carry a handheld radio. It’s just part of being prepared.
 
Clark1961 said:
Without going into politics about guns, it has to be a bit of a pain to take proper care of a handgun when FFDOs are traveling. Leaving it in a hotel room while going out for dinner would not be my first choice. Do hotels even have safe deposit boxes anymore? The in-room safes don’t impress me much but they’re better than nothing.
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That just reminded me of my experience in Kuwait during OIF. We had to go off base to get something for the boat. Rule in Kuwait was you were not allowed to leave the base without each person being armed and the gate guards checked everyone on the way out.

Then we get into town and get told: you aren’t allowed to carry in town, all weapons must be left in the car! WTF!?!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Let's avoid having the gun talk turn spin zone...
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Wasn't trying to go there, but it is par for the course with the incident in question :)

I won't get into constitution or politics on the matter.

Clark1961 said:
Without going into politics about guns, it has to be a bit of a pain to take proper care of a handgun when FFDOs are traveling. Leaving it in a hotel room while going out for dinner would not be my first choice. Do hotels even have safe deposit boxes anymore? The in-room safes don’t impress me much but they’re better than nothing.
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Sadly FFDOs do not qualify under LEOSA, and don't have the nationwide CCW that LEOs enjoy, pilots have been arrested before trying to navigate the issues between being a federal FFDO with a pistol and crazy different state by state CCW laws, land at JFK and drive to the hotel with your sidearm without a NY pistol permit, or a almost impossible to get NYC pistol permit, you just committed a felony.

Again not getting political, and not a 121 guy, but you're more likely to have a life changing event (not in a good way) with local laws as a FFDO, than you are to make a save being armed as a FFDO. I've yet to see any good jobs that will hire felons, so the risk of loosing your livelihood for a tiny misstep transporting or carrying that pistol is too much, and sadly it makes the whole FFDO program weak. Thus DD flashlight or crash axe > pistol
 
James331 said:
Wasn't trying to go there, but it is par for the course with the incident in question :)

I won't get into constitution or politics on the matter.



Sadly FFDOs do not qualify under LEOSA, and don't have the nationwide CCW that LEOs enjoy, pilots have been arrested before trying to navigate the issues between being a federal FFDO with a pistol and crazy different state by state CCW laws, land at JFK and drive to the hotel with your sidearm without a NY pistol permit, or a almost impossible to get NYC pistol permit, you just committed a felony.l
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US Code Title 49 Subtitle VII Part A Subpart III Chapter 449 Subchapter I 44921 does not agree with your assertion. It specifically preempts any other federal or state law regarding FFDO handgun possession. States and localities can whine about it but any conviction will not be valid.
 
James331 said:
Sadly FFDOs do not qualify under LEOSA, and don't have the nationwide CCW that LEOs enjoy, pilots have been arrested before trying to navigate the issues between being a federal FFDO with a pistol and crazy different state by state CCW laws, land at JFK and drive to the hotel with your sidearm without a NY pistol permit, or a almost impossible to get NYC pistol permit, you just committed a felony.

Again not getting political, and not a 121 guy, but you're more likely to have a life changing event (not in a good way) with local laws as a FFDO, than you are to make a save being armed as a FFDO. I've yet to see any good jobs that will hire felons, so the risk of loosing your livelihood for a tiny misstep transporting or carrying that pistol is too much, and sadly it makes the whole FFDO program weak. Thus DD flashlight or crash axe > pistol
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You are wrong.
 
Clark1961 said:
US Code Title 49 Subtitle VII Part A Subpart III Chapter 449 Subchapter I 44921 does not agree with your assertion. It specifically preempts any other federal or state law regarding FFDO handgun possession. States and localities can whine about it but any conviction will not be valid.
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So where does it say a FFDO can carry or transport outside the airport, or that they qualify as a LEOSA?

Because not allowing them to transport outside of one airport makes this totally impractical

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44921
 
James331 said:
So where does it say a FFDO can carry or transport outside the airport, or that they qualify as a LEOSA?

Because not allowing them to transport outside of one airport makes this totally impractical

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44921
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Preemption.—
Notwithstanding any other provision of Federal or State law, a Federal flight deck officer, whenever necessary to participate in the program, may carry a firearm in any State and from 1 State to another State.
 
Does that cover outside of the airport?
Going to home for your stretch off?



Personally I don't have lawyers on retainer to fight the NYSP or CHP etc

Shy of making it LEOSA it's just too much risk.
 
James331 said:
So where does it say a FFDO can carry or transport outside the airport, or that they qualify as a LEOSA?

Because not allowing them to transport outside of one airport makes this totally impractical

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44921
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They've been carrying outside the airport since the program started, probably 8-10 years ago I guess. They are supposed to be secured and locked when out of the cockpit. It's not like they're running around on an overnight carrying the gun in a holster like Matt Dillion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Flight_Deck_Officer
 
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"The House Report for the act also indicates that the authority to carry firearms interstate does not extend to off-duty activities"
https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=718238

When are you "off duty"

Plenty of rope to hang yourself with, or drum up legal expenses, especially in states, which are also MAJOR hubs, like NYC, LAX, ORD, etc.
 
James331 said:
Does that cover outside of the airport?
Going to home for your stretch off?
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You are obviously being argumentative so further discourse is pointless. The law clearly addresses your concerns.
 
Off duty when the day's flying is finished. You're grasping at straws. It's all perfectly legal with restrictions stipulated.
 
Clark1961 said:
You are obviously being argumentative so further discourse is pointless. The law clearly addresses your concerns.
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No, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are being argumentative lol

As someone who lives in one of the states I mentioned, I can easily see how the interaction with one of the state or local PD could easily go.

"You May Beat the Rap, But You Can't Beat The Ride"

Explaining you're still on duty as a pilot, to some cop who knows next to nothing about aviation or FARs, when you're not in a plane, on a airport, and are heading home or to a hotel...
 
James331 said:
No, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are being argumentative lol
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When someone ignores the wording of a law and then asks if it applies then they are being argumentative. In this case the law states that travel in state is permitted yet you asked if off-airport was allowed. That is being argumentative or obtuse. Either way, I'm done with further discourse with you because you do not care about facts in forming your opinion. You prefer to make things up and draw conclusions based on those made up things.[/QUOTE]
 
Clark1961 said:
When someone ignores the wording of a law and then asks if it applies then they are being argumentative. In this case the law states that travel in state is permitted yet you asked if off-airport was allowed. That is being argumentative or obtuse. Either way, I'm done with further discourse with you because you do not care about facts in forming your opinion. You prefer to make things up and draw conclusions based on those made up things.
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Didn't mean to trigger you as it were.

But the wording is no where as clear as it is for retired cops or others under the LEO bills.

Off duty, it wouldn't be a concern in AK or AZ or NH or VT, but places like NY,CA,NJ I'd want to be protected by the same clear language like the LEO offduty/retired type bills enjoy (LEOSA).

Again, no dog in the fight, but people have been dragged through the legal mud for far less, a conversation worth having, or laws that need adjustment when talking about securing the flight deck in wake of events such as the mentioned FedEx incident, while also protecting the pilots clearly and fully outside of the airport environment.
 
I live in Massachusettstan, not sure if I can carry concealed at the airport. (not talking Logan BOS)
 
PaulS said:
I live in Massachusettstan, not sure if I can carry concealed at the airport. (not talking Logan BOS)
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740 CMR 30.04 Airport Authority/Airports (1) No person except federal or state law enforcement officers, United States Postal Service, United States Customs and Border Patrol, Air Carrier employees approved by the TSA, members of the Armed Forces of the United States and Massachusetts National Guard on official duty and licensed armored truck service guards with the prior approval of the Authority, who are authorized and validly licensed to carry Firearms, ammunition and explosives in Massachusetts, shall carry loaded or otherwise operational Firearms or explosives on the Airport.

740 CMR 30.01 Defines Airport - Airport shall mean an airport owned or operated by the Authority

If Massport is there...
 
One of my friends is a FFDO trainer. I have asked him this very question. I can’t cite chapter and verse, but he clearly said it’s totally fine to carry from airport to hotel regardless of local statutes.
 
PPC1052 said:
I don't understand this. How does that work? Not meant to be argumentative. I truly am ignorant.
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Not sure I agree a pistol shooting a modern round is a good signal device, but a 12G shotgun shooting a flare sure is

 
PPC1052 said:
I don't understand this. How does that work? Not meant to be argumentative. I truly am ignorant.
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Repeated loud noises make it easier for someone on the ground to locate you. I also have a whistle in my kit to help locate me as the ground team gets closer. Searchers in the woods can’t see very far so noise can work better than smoke or flares. Of course the visual stuff is used to get airsearch attention but someone still has to ATV/snowmachine/hike in to your location.
 
Thanks. I was definitely thinking about the visual notification, not the audio.
 
Clark1961 said:
740 CMR 30.04 Airport Authority/Airports (1) No person except federal or state law enforcement officers, United States Postal Service, United States Customs and Border Patrol, Air Carrier employees approved by the TSA, members of the Armed Forces of the United States and Massachusetts National Guard on official duty and licensed armored truck service guards with the prior approval of the Authority, who are authorized and validly licensed to carry Firearms, ammunition and explosives in Massachusetts, shall carry loaded or otherwise operational Firearms or explosives on the Airport.

740 CMR 30.01 Defines Airport - Airport shall mean an airport owned or operated by the Authority

If Massport is there...
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Thanks Clark, so that rules out Boston, Bedford and Worcester. Boston and Bedford charge to land, so screw them. I do fly to Worcester for T and Gs, but I don't carry while flying so I guess it's not an issue.
 
PPC1052 said:
Thanks. I was definitely thinking about the visual notification, not the audio.
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If ya ever get lost/need help out in the boonies then repeated, evenly timed shots will get the attention of anyone who hears. City folk might leave the area. Chances are country folk will have a look-see. You might not see them...gotta be a little careful these days.
 
Clark1961 said:
If ya ever get lost/need help out in the boonies then repeated, evenly timed shots will get the attention of anyone who hears. City folk might leave the area. Chances are country folk will have a look-see. You might not see them...gotta be a little careful these days.
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We were doing a practice search and rescue. I was the one that got to go out and be "lost".

I tried firing evenly spaced shots in the air. Three shots, wait 15 minutes and do it again. No one even noticed. I continued firing shots until I was out of arrows and nothin'......
 
Zeldman said:
We were doing a practice search and rescue. I was the one that got to go out and be "lost".

I tried firing evenly spaced shots in the air. Three shots, wait 15 minutes and do it again. No one even noticed. I continued firing shots until I was out of arrows and nothin'......
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Supposed to use flaming arrows.
 
Zeldman said:
We were doing a practice search and rescue. I was the one that got to go out and be "lost".

I tried firing evenly spaced shots in the air. Three shots, wait 15 minutes and do it again. No one even noticed. I continued firing shots until I was out of arrows and nothin'......
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The bastards were prolly in the bar laughing at yer ass.
 
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