Federal pilots may get shootdown power

[wsuffa]

I heard that was West Virginia...

No, it was in College Station, Texas. A group of Aggies went searching for survivors and found over 1000 bodies....

 

[poadeleted20]

The authority to shoot down aircraft identified as hostile has existed as long as the military has had the capability to do so. Other than in armed conflict, that authority resides now (as it always has) in the hands of a VERY small number of people -- President, SecDef, CinCNORAD, and DepCinCNORAD. Such orders were given on 9/11, but due to the low alert state and the positioning of the fighter assets for external rather than internal use, nobody could get in position fast enough. In other words, this is nothing new except to propose tasking non-DoD assets for the mission.

Frankly, I have no idea how they would implement this. The Coast Guard has no aircraft capable of the mission. About the only thing Customs could do is hang out the door of their helo and fire small arms at the aircraft. Sounds mostly like posturing and empire-building to me. Note that the idea was proposed by an ex-Coastie in DHS.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have never served in the military, but I thought that unlawful or immoral orders didn't have to be followed.

It depends. In actual combat, enlisted are required to obey all orders -- see the legal fallout from My Lai. Officers are responsible for refusing to obey unlawful orders. If nobody's shooting at you, everyone is required to refuse an unlawful order. However, an order from the National Command Authorities to shoot down a plane in the FRZ that didn't respond to commands would be lawful, and would have to be obeyed. Only the person issuing that order would be responsible for its consequences.

 

[poadeleted3]

It depends. In actual combat, enlisted are required to obey all orders -- snip.

This directly contradicts the training I received my entire time in service. We were trained to NEVER obey an unlawful order. I got that same training from two different branches of the service.

 

[sere]

LOL Henning. Glad someone keeps it lite here.

The destructive force of a 150 is often underestimated. Look at the 150 that crashed in the cemetey in Poland, they dug up 730 victims in the crash zone.

 

[sere]

No, it was in College Station, Texas. A group of Aggies went searching for survivors and found over 1000 bodies....

Spoken like a UT Gratuate. LOL

 

[sere]

It depends. In actual combat, enlisted are required to obey all orders -- see the legal fallout from My Lai. Officers are responsible for refusing to obey unlawful orders. If nobody's shooting at you, everyone is required to refuse an unlawful order. However, an order from the National Command Authorities to shoot down a plane in the FRZ that didn't respond to commands would be lawful, and would have to be obeyed. Only the person issuing that order would be responsible for its consequences.

I am not a military legal type but never in my 23 plus years was I ever taught that I had to follow a order that I know is unlawful. But I do agree the person that issues the order to shoot down a GA aircraft should be the one to hang on the hightest tree.

 

[Greebo]

The authority to shoot down aircraft identified as hostile

That's the key point though, isn't it?

Identified as hostile.

Yeah if you can identify it as hostile, shoot it down, by ALL means. Same reason you shoot a burglar at 3am.

But short of seeing someone in the cockpit pointing at the nuclear device in the back seat and waving a sign saying, "DIE USA", how do you identify a C172 as hostile?

 

[wsuffa]

Spoken like a UT Gratuate. LOL

Not me. I just live here. I do know some tea-sippers, though.

 

[tom.]

I hate to bring this up, since this topic died at work much sooner than I expected.

Has anyone considered where the pieces of a "hostile" aircraft would go after a shootdown? What if it was an airliner or transport? Over a downtown area or subdivision?

 

[fgcason]

Has anyone considered where the pieces of a "hostile" aircraft would go after a shootdown? What if it was an airliner or transport? Over a downtown area or subdivision?

I already mentioned that.

What you're overlooking is the well known fact that aircraft, missiles, bullets, etc magically disappear after the hit or if it the arsenal misses the target. There's nothing left to fall on the ground and hurt anyone.

Problem solved!!!...until it actually happens and physics takes over and invalidates all the touchy feely answers out there. But we can stick our heads in the ground and not worry about that...right? right? sure we can...

 

[poadeleted20]

This directly contradicts the training I received my entire time in service. We were trained to NEVER obey an unlawful order. I got that same training from two different branches of the service.

Maybe so, but every single enlisted man at My Lai who went to court-martial was acquitted on the basis of an order given in combat by a commissioned officer, while Lt Calley was convicted of giving the order, and the court found that whether or not Capt Medina gave such an order to Calley was irrelevant due to Calley's status as a commissioned officer. Note that the only thing that saved Medina was the fact that the only other officer present at the time Calley alleged Medina gave the order had been KIA shortly thereafter, and so the prosecution was unable to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Medina was lying when he said he did not give the order. Had that other officer been alive to testify that Medina had ordered the killings, Medina would have swung from the gibbet right with Calley.

Perhaps the relevant parts of UCMJ were rewritten since then, but the precedent is clear.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's the key point though, isn't it?

Identified as hostile.

Yeah if you can identify it as hostile, shoot it down, by ALL means. Same reason you shoot a burglar at 3am.

But short of seeing someone in the cockpit pointing at the nuclear device in the back seat and waving a sign saying, "DIE USA", how do you identify a C172 as hostile?

First, at least in Maryland, you are NOT permitted to shoot a burglar at 3 am. In this state, deadly force may be used ONLY to protect life, not property. In fact, if you can escape (say, out the back door), you are required to do so rather than shoot.

As for identifying as hostile, there are criteria short of "someone in the cockpit pointing at the nuclear device in the back seat and waving a sign saying, 'DIE USA'" which allow a target to be designated as "hostile," including failure to obey orders to divert from a path towards an item of value, e.g., the White House. Speed, altitude, size, evasive maneuvers, and intelligence information are all part of the decision. Clearly a C-150 visually identified and wandering around in circles at 6500 feet is very different from a small jet flying at 450 knots at 200 feet headed straight for the White House. But the command authorities get to make that decision.

Note that in some circumstances (normally after the onset of hostilities), command authority can authorize "Weapons Free," in which case any target not confirmed friendly will be splashed, as opposed to "Weapons Tight," when only targets confirmed hostile are shot down. It's all situations, and that's why they are limiting the authority to four very senior, and in theory, very careful people.