father, son dead testing Christmas gifts on Christmas day
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alfadog
Final Approach
Lots going on there but out of respect, I hold my tongue. RIP.
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Snorting his way across the USA
Well what do you say. That sucks.
MickYoumans
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MickYoumans
I love SCUBA diving but never saw the attraction for cave diving. Too much hastle to do it correctly and safely and just not worth the extra effort to me. I much prefer a colorful 30' reef. My prayers go out to the family. So sad to have such a thing like that occur on Christmas. The holidays will be rough on the remaining family for years to come. My father-in-law died of a heart attack on Christmas morning in '97. Christmas is still a bit sad for my wife even this many years later. RIP
Yeah, I will say some of it. I have my PADI advanced scuba certification, and I suspect there are many experienced divers on this board. You don't just go cave diving without sufficient planning, and you definitely don't go cave diving with untested and unfamiliar equipment, without redundant equipment, and without an experienced divemaster if you aren't an experienced cave diver, and you most certainly never go cave diving with an uncertified 15 year old boy. That is just beyond stupid. It doesn't get any more dangerous than cave diving. Period. You really need to know what you are doing.
Many folks here have ripped Dr. Hatch, the pilot that killed off himself and his entire family (including two seperate wives), except for his son in two airplance accidents. This incident is much more reckless than either, or both put together. I can understand flying VFR with your family. I can't imagine taking a 15 year old cave diving under the best of circumstances, let alone the worst of circumstances like in this case. This wasn't an accident, this was an inevitability.
SoloEqs
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K W
The diving equivalent of a VFR flight into IMC.
No, more like the equivalent of taking off VFR into cumulonimbus clouds in formation with your 15 year old son flying the other plane who isn't a licensed pilot.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Have you ever tried a cave diving on the Yucatan peninsula under expert supervision? I did it twice and it was absolutely breathtaking. Going through layers of salt/fresh water creates unbelievable optical effects, if you are in the layer of fresh water the visibility is stunning - like if there was no water at all (the guide warned us beforehand - don't take your mask off thinking there is no water around you!). You pass rooms some as big to fit a 747, sometimes you can surface and breathe the air trapped in the cave, you encounter stalagmites and stalactites. Some dives are with some rays of sunlight other with artificial light only. Again, Yucatan is the place that offers the most spectacular cave diving on this planet and I would recommend do it at least once, it is like being on another planet.
By the way, I recall another father-son dive team that perished under different circumstances while diving deep off New York to explore a sunken German U-boat. Even a book was written about it: http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Dive-Father-Descent/dp/0060932597 , now this is the type of diving that doesn't appeal to me - going deep to explore some rusty wreck in very murky waters.
I go along with this one.
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Another great book is Shadow Divers. I am sure its about the same U-boat, but the deaths of the father-son team is only one small part of the book.
http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Divers...&qid=1388174210&sr=1-1&keywords=shadow+divers
N747JB
Final Approach
Sounds like his friend knew he was reckless. 
I guess this is sort of like when a pilot crashes an airplane and folks at his home airport aren't surprised.
"Robert Brooks, an experienced cave diver who knew Spivey, told
The Tampa Bay Times that it seems as though their deaths could have been avoided.
"The sad thing is, I told him, 'One night they’re going to call me to come get you,"' Brooks, who worked in their recovery effort, said."
I guess this is sort of like when a pilot crashes an airplane and folks at his home airport aren't surprised.
"Robert Brooks, an experienced cave diver who knew Spivey, told
"The sad thing is, I told him, 'One night they’re going to call me to come get you,"' Brooks, who worked in their recovery effort, said."
denverpilot
Tied Down
No one has whipped out the old "He died doing what he loved!" that's repeated ad nauseam at aviator's funerals?
Y'all are slipping.
Y'all are slipping.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Nope, he died being stupid.
As a certified diver myself, I can not even begin to fathom what was going through his mind to do a cave dive with untested equipment, with an uncertified diver (not even basic open-water!) without someone else as a backup. This guy was taking huge chances with his life and ended up taking his son along for the ride.
I haven't done it yet, but fully intend on going cave-diving - with a good experienced guide.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Try saying that around here about a pilot after a crash and watch 20 people jump you that "the facts aren't known yet!!! OMFGBBQWTF!!! "
LOL. Sorry. Just had to use this thread to point out our little PoA foibles and mental inaccuracies.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
I say lots of things. Not everyone agrees. I don't care.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Props for buying something dangerous for himself and son for Christmas. Refer to the American spirit dead thread, one of the problems is parents and then their kids are sissies, these guys weren't. Of course there is a price, still better then getting the kid an Xbox. Dunno anything about scuba so I won't judge where on the bad luck/stupid scale they are.
I do. And the stupid meter doesn't go up high enough to give an accurate reading for this one.
JB1842
En-Route
I say lots of things. Not everyone agrees. I don't care.
I agree with you. I have an advanced PADI rating. Haven't dove in 6 years. No way I would go diving now without a dive with a dive master or instructor close by.
Well, we don't usually see that comment with aviation accidents:
"The sad thing is, I told him, 'One night they’re going to call me to come get you,"' Brooks, who worked in their recovery effort, said.
"The sad thing is, I told him, 'One night they’re going to call me to come get you,"' Brooks, who worked in their recovery effort, said.
My uncle is a SCUBA instructor and won't dare do caves. His opine is good enough to make me never care to venture inside one.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Imagine that gifts are guns, loaded and father and son (no, they ain't sissies) engage in Russian roulette right by the Christmas tree, that would be a fair comparison.
Warrior
Line Up and Wait
I have gotten the message of the dangers of cave diving years ago . I am sorry that this happened.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Was it cave diving or poorly executed cave diving? Understood caves are more dangerous.
Lots of things wrong here. They had proper gear for the dive, though I didn't see any jump reels on their kit. The way the details are rigged, it's shows they didn't really have any quality tech diving training.
I'm wondering why they were so far apart, although many of those holes have a pretty good current in them and that may just have been where they fetched up. Since the lower of them fetched up at 127' they were likely further in than that, so there s a question as to what gas they were breathing and how much nitrogen narcosis played into this. Most serious cave and wreck divers will be on Tri Mix below 130', I suspect they were on air since they weren't carrying deco bottles with a high O2 mix in them. This was not the first recovery out of that cave system, and it won't be the last. Always kinda sad. I never really understood the attraction to diving FL caves either, there's nothing pretty in them, although you can occasionally run across some interesting fossils and artifacts from the last ice age. We found a Saber Tooth Tiger fang once in Devils Den. The caves in Yucatan however are a completely different story, they are filled with crystalline formations that are magnificent, and many of them are in the 60' range so with a pair of 121s jacked to 4500psi of 36%, you can spend a few hours on the dive. You also get halyoclines which are really interesting.
Personally, if I'm going diving deep, I'm going on a wreck in the ocean where there's interesting things to see.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Well, definitely poorly executed if they did not return. But we really don't know what happened in that cave, did the son panic (frequent case with novices) and this precipitated the whole disaster or they didn't even bother to follow textbook cave diving protocol. The only certified diver was the father and since he wasn't cave certified who knows what penetration methods he devised on his own.
I might see one attached to son's gear (right under his right elbow) but we even don't know if the photograph is indicative of the gear they had this day.
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
My tech diving master instructor would say much the same. He also preferred the Yucatan cenotes and caves to anything in Florida. But was more partial to wrecks.
As Henning and others hint at, Cave Diving requires lots of prep and planning and correct execution. Plain open water diver should not attempt at all.
I've been to 225ft on a few planned deco dives along the Cayman wall and a deeper wreck around the Carolinas (about 150ft). It was interesting for a few times, but the equipment investment is mucho and you feel like you've strapped on the entire inventory of the local dive shop.
It's now much more interesting to do the 30-40' zone. More life to observe, the colors are not filtered out, you get the same feeling of weightlessness. And getting 60-75 minutes bottom time out of an AL80 on air is not uncommon.
(Thread drift thought.... Fly-in Dive-in somewhere nice with Henning as our host)
Which textbook did they have? That's another question. Their kit looks pretty Hogarthian, and while there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, the method training that go with the kit style have seen many more recoveries than the DIR techniques that JJ and GI developed at WKPP. I came up running boats for and training with Billy Deans, so much of my kit and methodology is a blend hitch developed into the DIR system.
For an aviation equivalency, this is more like a pair ultralight pilots going on a night flight in the mountains with thunderstorms around using bright flashlights to navigate.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Staniel Cay, runway to dive shack is a 3 minute golf cart ride there are bungalows to rent right there as well and the SCYC bar. My favorite place in the Bahamas.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
225', wow!
The deepest I went was around 145' and it was Blue Hole in Belize, no decompression, single tank and thanks to very clever algorithms in my dive computer I was able to complete the dive without hitting a deco stop. Of course we had a guide.
MickYoumans
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MickYoumans
Now that I might be interested in under the proper training and conditions. I was referring to the Florida caves in my post.
housefly
Pre-Flight
Sadly,the father made reckless a decision that cost two lives. Any certified diver knows cave diving is a dive requiring special training and equipment and you are taught in basic training to stay out of caves if you are not. Maybe he was a cave diver or not who knows, if he was, even more so reckless. My sympathies go out to their family.
You can bounce 300' and not need a deco stop. You can spend around 5 minutes at 220' and not need one.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Per my Sherwood dive computer the deepest no deco dive I can make is 160 ft, anything deeper requires a deco stop. Never saw dive computer yet that would be more liberal than mine.
Which Sherwood, the hockey puck? I used to run the Cochran Nitrox Nemesis II and the Dive Rite one, both of them would clear the deco commitment by 60' using a 60fpm ascent to 120' and 30fpm above that. When I would be safety diver for the team on the Wilkes Barre I'd meet them at the tie in on the combat command bridge at 190' with a spare bottle of deco mix if anyone needed gas, then I would take a lap around the deck at 210-220 as they started their ascent. I'd do that twice a week, my computers were always clear before I hit the next indicated stop. I also had a safety margin because the half hour they were down in the wreck, I was hanging at 20' breathing surface supply 100% O2 and I would switch to 36% NNII at 90' on my way up without switching the computer to the second mix.
I'd do the same 'meet and greet' at 300' on Kendrick dives using 12/50 Tri mix below 90' and 36% between the O2 at 20' and 90'
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SixPapaCharlie
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Sixer
Where can I learn abut the dangers of cave diving. I have only dived once to 50 feet. I know nothing about diving really but Curious as to what makes cave diving so dangerous.
I would guess the obvious would be if there is an issue, you cannot go straight up but have to travel back to the entrance before ascending but what else?
I would guess the obvious would be if there is an issue, you cannot go straight up but have to travel back to the entrance before ascending but what else?
olasek
Pattern Altitude
I am primarily familiar with the Yucatan caves but I think it carries mostly to other caves too..
First, if the network is extensive you can easily get lost, like being in an extensive labyrinth, all of a sudden you forgot which way is out since there are many competing routes that look similar. I would say getting lost is the main danger. And also the place looks extremely inviting - please explore me, you feel intoxicated by the beauty of the surroundings, like exploring enchanted castle, you press forward. Second (in Yucatan) that water is extremely clear but any sudden fin kick can easily turn spectacular visibility into a pea soup and the sediment takes hours to settle, the less experienced the diver the more indiscriminate are his/her kicks. In other words you better know how to return even in such scenario...
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If you want training, look up Jarrod Jablonski, or GUE diving.
What makes it dangerous... Many things. First and foremost, if you have an emergency, you can't just surface. If you lose light, you can't see your way out, if you are careless about your fin strokes or hands, you will silt out the cave and not be able to see your way out. If you go too far, you will not have the gas to get out. If you turn around at the half gas +500 point and you parner has a gas problem, you both won't have enough gas to get out. If you have an equipment failure without redundant gear, you may not get out. If your gear is rigged like a cluster ****, it can get you hung in a squeeze point and you may not get out. Any problem you have has a limited time to fix, and even if you fix it, if you didn't do so quickly and calmly enough, you won't get out.
Starting to understand? This is why we call this stuff 'technical diving' and we do it with teams of people, not just a buddy. You have buddy pairs but they function as part of a team. Everybody has a plan, and if you aren't at a planned point on time, somebody comes after you following your lines and markers right then, and they are carrying spare gas.
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AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Henning describes it well. So many ways for it to go all wrong. If your not properly equipped with the right gear, training and experience, your chance of survival is very slim.
Think about trying to fly the Aspen approach or departure, at IMC mins, in a barely equipped 150hp single and you just were blessed with your PPL last week... In the flat lands and always ideal wind conditions. Sure you might just squeak by, but it won't take much to kill you. Same with cave diving.
"The Last Dive" book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Dive-Father-Descent/dp/0060932597) mentioned earlier is a good read. While focused on wreck diving, covers many of the same technical aspects and challenges that cave divers face.
Think about trying to fly the Aspen approach or departure, at IMC mins, in a barely equipped 150hp single and you just were blessed with your PPL last week... In the flat lands and always ideal wind conditions. Sure you might just squeak by, but it won't take much to kill you. Same with cave diving.
"The Last Dive" book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Dive-Father-Descent/dp/0060932597) mentioned earlier is a good read. While focused on wreck diving, covers many of the same technical aspects and challenges that cave divers face.
Exactly. As I said above, it doesn't get more dangerous than cave diving. Period.