Fatal Cub Crash, WI

[Silvaire]

...Possibly, but that also requires being pretty close to a stall, which probably means that someone forgot that stalling speed increases with bank and may have been flying the turn too slowly...

Impossible turn and moose stall are the same thing caused by the same illusion. First, you are at low altitude and fixated on a point on the ground, either a moose or in this case the #9 at the end of the runway they were trying to get back to. If you are turning downwind, which in this case they presumably were, and you're looking at the ground then it's going to seem like you're going faster. It's a very strong illusion, it happens quickly - especially if you just chopped all 65 of your horses in a climb with two people onboard a Cub. It also happens to seasoned pilots like crop dusters who you wouldn't think it would.

 

[JB1842]

Plenty of open area coming off 27. Flown off it many times. The fields have a few rolls but nothing major to worry about too much if they just flew it into the fields. I wonder if they turned left or right? Turn left you are on the taxi/hangar side of the field, turn right and you have the grass area (which is used all the time by pilots) next to the runway to use.

 

[Albany Tom]

Let me take exception to the bolded part.

As background, I have about 1,500 tailwheel hours, with much of that teaching tailwheel transition courses and basic aerobatics in Citabrias.

Early in my CFI training, it was emphasized that only one person should be manipulating the controls at any given time. If an instructor is “riding” the controls, it makes it hard for the student to discern what’s aerodynamic feedback on the controls and what is the instructor subtly, and perhaps unconsciously, “helping”. It also sets the stage for instructor and student “fighting” for the controls.

And this might be the difference... Was this tailwheel transition training/cub training, or primary training? I did my primary training in a cub, and until I had landings down pat, absolutely I was being "followed" on the controls. As well as in ground handling. I can't imagine an instructor being fast enough to recover a cub on the ground, taxiing, without doing that. I'm not saying you aren't - I believe you - but that sounds like a hazard pay rate thing to me.

As to the rudder. I'm sorry, I don't fly a pattern in a cub at enough of an angle or at a slow enough speed for a rudder hit to cause a problem. That's just too close to the edge, and without any reason I can see. Nobody ever said to a cub in a pattern "you're too fast!" And I can't see letting a student doing turns at low level without having confidence in their ability to keep the plane at least mostly coordinated.

So to summarize my take on this, two possibilities. First, to FastEddie's point, the instructor was doing transition training or had enough confidence in the student that they weren't following on the controls. That this delay was enough to slow her response to a pitch input suitable to stall the plane. If so, it's different from the narative quoted, but it's very plausible. Second possibility, instructor was following on controls and just overpowered the student. To me this is most likely if the student was new to flying in general.

Thanks for the perspective on transition training.

 

[FastEddieB]

And this might be the difference... Was this tailwheel transition training/cub training, or primary training?

Mostly a 5 hour tailwheel transition course, initially in a 7ECA Citabria and later in a 7GCBC. However one was a de novo student who wanted to go for his Private in a tailwheel aircraft*. I don’t think that made a difference in my not riding the controls but just covering them.

As an aside, the students rode up front. I added an inclinometer ball to the upper right of the panel that I could see from the back.

These are simple and cheap and easy to add. In fact, my Sky Arrow came with one front and center in the panel.


*We’re still friends 40 years later!

 

[Ed Haywood]

Tandem seat aircraft are a lot more vulnerable to confusion over who is flying. Can't just glance over and check. When I take pilot buddies for acro rides in my Decathlon, we sometimes take turns flying maneuvers. I always make a point of saying "Your Plane" - "My Plane" and vice versa.

Every time I hear the phrase "hurry a turn with rudder", I grind another layer off my molars and get that much closer to being toothless. Do they not teach how airplanes fly anymore?

 

[DogoPilot]

Every time I hear the phrase "hurry a turn with rudder", I grind another layer off my molars and get that much closer to being toothless. Do they not teach how airplanes fly anymore?

I always find that odd as well, as I've never once felt inclined to increase my rate of turn with the rudder. It just seems counterintuitive to me. Maybe it's because I played flying video games as a kid and never owned a boat, so it never really occurred to me that anybody would think to turn a plane with the rudder until I started reading about it being a common problem. Who knows?

 

[RyanShort1]

I always find that odd as well, as I've never once felt inclined to increase my rate of turn with the rudder. It just seems counterintuitive to me. Maybe it's because I played flying video games as a kid and never owned a boat, so it never really occurred to me that anybody would think to turn a plane with the rudder until I started reading about it being a common problem. Who knows?

But it *should* be an even LESS common problem at a place that freaking teaches in Cubs...

 

[FastEddieB]

I always find that odd as well, as I've never once felt inclined to increase my rate of turn with the rudder.

Nor have I.

And yet…

Completely normal turn to base at my then home base of Blue Ridge Skyport. No sense of “rushing the turn with rudder”, and yet there you have it:

Had no idea until I watched the video after the flight.

Similarly, I recall spiraling down through a relatively small hole in a broken layer when I wondered why my Cirrus sounded a little funny. Yes, the ball was pinned to the right end of the tube. Oops!

I commend anyone where this simply never happens. In both instructing and my personal flying I’ve found it a very common and natural reflex.

 

[dmspilot]

This might be a completely irrelevant anecdote but I was giving a flight review in a 172 to a guy who owned a Cub and caught him skidding his turns in the traffic pattern quite a bit. Surprisingly he was the only pilot I've ever seen do so, as most under-use the rudder.

 

[DogoPilot]

This might be a completely irrelevant anecdote but I was giving a flight review in a 172 to a guy who owned a Cub and caught him skidding his turns in the traffic pattern quite a bit. Surprisingly he was the only pilot I've ever seen do so, as most under-use the rudder.

That's my experience as well. Flying Archers and Warriors for most of my time as a pilot, I had to consciously train myself pay more attention to the rudder since the adverse yaw is almost imperceptible from the front seats in normal turns.