Fatal Crash at Sport Aviation Expo

Since Jay is not a CFI and won't be be signing anyone off to take either a PP or SP practical test, his interpretation of the rules/PTS won't affect anyone else, so I think we've covered this issue adequately.

This is about the most arrogant post I have seen yet on POA.
Because you are not a CFI you can't interpret the regs?
I would say there are MANY MANY people that can interrupt them as well if not BETTER than you Ron, just because their ticket doesn't say CFI, doesn't mean they can't read.

Mark B.
 
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Wow, so since one person is dead, and another is in the hospital, the best people can do it point fingers at each other. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but, can't we be adults about it? I mean, I'm still in college and whatnot, but really people. If I didn't know better, I'd say I was looking at a bunch of middle school kids arguing about something.

I guess light sport isn't welcome here, from the looks of it.
 
I guess light sport isn't welcome here, from the looks of it.
If it's not, then I'm not, either.

The whole thing started because one poster with an axe to grind used the event to push his agenda. I tried to show that his argument was full of prunes, and got jumped on myself for it.

If we take lessons from these kinds of accidents and become better, safer pilots, that's one thing. If we use them to divide the pilot community, that's when I get unhappy. That's what was about to happen, and what I'm trying to argue against: a sport pilot is no less a "real" pilot than any of the rest of us.
 
That is the thrust of the concerns I am addressing about lower required experience.

You seem to believe that private pilots take their checkrides at 40 hours and sport pilots take their checkrides at 20 hours. :dunno:

The minimum *required* experience is the minimum for a reason. Every person is different and learns differently and frankly, starts from a different position. When teaching someone how to use the satellite communications devices we had in the trucks, it made a huge difference whether they were someone who was a real tech-head or someone who had pushed a broom all their life and "never really messed with those computer things." Likewise, someone who walks in the door not knowing what a vertical stabilizer or an elevator is, is going to take many more hours to get to the required standards than someone who grew up around airplanes.

You can't possibly train a new pilot to be able to handle every situation they're going to come across on their own, no matter how many hours you make them fly. That is borne out by the new revelation that the accident airplane in the case of the OP was being flown by a *commercial* pilot. If a 250+ hour pilot with several checkrides under his belt can still crash a light sport airplane, then clearly more than 250 hours of training should be required to fly a light sport airplane, by your logic.

That simply would not work. If it required 250 hours of training, recreational aviation and most GA as we know it would cease to exist. Even the low amount of training required now keeps the vast majority of the population out.

The key is baby steps. The first one is our first solo. The next is our pilot certificate, be it sport or private. I think that the pilot certificate should be viewed as the second level of solo: When you first soloed, you were allowed to manipulate the controls without a CFI watching over you in the cockpit. This "second solo" that we get when we earn a pilot certificate simply allows us to manipulate the *decisions* without a CFI watching over us, as well as carry passengers.

Where we go from there is up to us. Like Lance pointed out, some will be boring holes in the sky on sunny days. Some will be doing aerobatics. Some will be looking to fly as a means of travel and will probably move on to their instrument ratings. Most of the additional training that needs to happen for those various pursuits is completely different for each of them, and extending the training regimen from where it is will unfairly try to put all of those types of pilots into the same box.

If you want my honest opinion, I think we should increase the PPL time requirements by a number of hours. It's not just a bias against sport pilots, it's a genuine concern that has grown out of the fact that we lose a lot of good people in the first couple of hundred hours they are flying. More training is never a bad thing.

What do you propose? How many hours is "enough"?

More training isn't a bad thing, but WHAT that "more training" consists of is the key. Sport and Private pilots are trained to know just the information that every pilot needs to know. It's the "core courses" so to speak. There are many different directions that "more training" could take.

The real problem is those who think they are done once the ticket is in hand. As I've said many times - Only push the envelope one corner at a time, but you MUST push the envelope to become a better pilot.

Also, compare the fatal (%) vs. non-fatal (%) vs. non-injury (%) crash rates of Bonanzas and common sport aircraft and tell me if the added speed and complexity of a Bonanza is not offset by the redundancy and increased integrity that in most cases accompanies the increase in weight.

Aren't you the guy who's looking through this already? Don't you have those numbers? I'd love to see them.

At some point, though, you have to push them out of the nest and let them learn on their own. The reason for the bump in accident rates in the first few hundred hours is that the new pilot hasn't yet had the bad experiences to form good judgment. The problem is that you can't teach those experiences and have them stick. Learning just doesn't work that way.

A-freakin'-men, Jay.

I saw the same things when training truck drivers. The first week or so, every time we got to a loading dock I'd be reminding them to open their doors, get out and look, etc. But, as time went on, I would stop reminding them of such things. No matter how many times I reminded them, after I stopped sooner or later they'd back into a dock with their doors closed. The embarrassment of having the forklift driver look at them like "You freakin' idiot, how do you expect me to unload you with your doors closed?" and the added time spent in having to pull off the dock, open the doors, and then back in again always made the lesson stick WAY better than reminding them a hundred times would.

Funnier yet, a friend of mine always told his trainees on day one that he'd be doing that to them. One of his trainees said "That's so ****in' stupid! I'm never gonna do that!" Well, later on, he did exactly that, twice in the same day. :rofl:

That's also why I spent the final week of training mostly silent, letting them screw up as long as it wouldn't put us or anyone else at too severe of a risk (and if that did happen, I reset the clock on their last week as they clearly weren't quite ready enough yet). That allowed me to evaluate how well I'd trained them and evaluate their decisionmaking processes and judgement. It also let them gain the confidence of getting out of a couple of jams without my assistance.

Where did I learn all this from? Pilot training - Observing what my CFI's did for me. And somehow, some way, I managed to get all that in a mere 42.6 hours for my private. Clearly, we need to raise the number of required hours. :rolleyes:

Holy crap, that was a long post.
 
I suspect experimental aircraft have a higher fatality rate than certificateds for two reasons. The first is that manufacturing defects in experimentals (builder errors) cause a significant number of crashes not seen in certificated aircraft. The second is that many experimentals (Vans included, if I'm not mistaken) have thinner wings, which give them higher cruise velocities, but also give them higher landing speeds. More speed means more energy, much, much more because of the inverse square laws. More energy to dissipate in the crash.

I scarfed up my accident database and did some sorting based on fatal accidents. My database runs from 1998 through 2006.

During that period, about 18% of all accidents involved fatalisties, vs about 25% of all homebuilt accidents.

For the fatal homebuilt accidents, the rate due to pilot mishandling was actually lower...32% vs. nearly 40% for all homebuilt accidents. This implies that the handing characteristics of the plane are not significantly responsible for fatalities.

The accident rates due to builder error and maintanence error are virtually identical. So the higher fatality rate isn't due to these factors.

The rate of fatal accidents involving continued VFR into IFR flight was about 3x higher than the overall rate...as was the accident rates stemming from buzzing!

Compared to the fatal accidents in my control group of 172s/210s, the Cessnas had about five times the accident rate due to VFR into IFR. The rate of fatal maintenance error accidents was about the same. About 5% of the fatal homebuilt accidents involved builder error, vs. about 0.5% of the Cessna control group. The pilot mishandling rates were practically the same, although the pilots involved in homebuilt fatalities had about 50% more flight time.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I do not think it's a myth. Airplanes *ARE* a practical means of long distance travel. Like cars and any other form of transportation, however, they have limitations and those limitations are different in airplanes than they are in cars.

I wasn't very clear about that. What I meant was I think potential pilots are led to believe that once they get their PPL they can use an airplane like they use a car, i.e. with a very high expectation of "getting there". At some point any savvy pilot realizes that there are significantly more limitations pertaining to travel in a light airplane but IMO for many this isn't stressed at all during PPL training, especially at the beginning. Certainly it's possible and reasonably practical to use a light airplane for travel as long as your schedule is flexible enough. But at each step in the pilot rating/airplane upgrade path one learns some nasty little truths about those limitations. Can you use a rental to fly to the cabin up north for the weekend? Sure, but you'll probably have to pay for 6 hours (including the fuel you don't use for a wet rental) even though it's only 1.5 hrs each way and if the weather takes a turn for the worse you'll end up catching a car ride home and then have to go back to retrieve the plane. OK let's solve the first problem by owning our own plane. Oops, now there's an AD that's gonna cost a bunch of money and ground the airplane for a few weeks just when we planned to go to the cabin. Of course, during those few weeks the weather is perfect for flying. I guess we could always rent! Now let's get that IR so we can fly in weather that grounds a VFR pilot. Great but now the thunderstorms keep popping up in lines when we need to get back home and we can't really count on using the plane for those weekend ski trips in the winter because ice is virtually always in the forecast. How about we get an airplane with deice boots? Great, now we find out that this is only meant for getting out of the ice not through it.

It goes on and on, often feels like three steps forward and two steps back. Now don't get me wrong, I would rather fly and deal with all of this than drive any day, but I do feel that the practicality of GA has fallen far short of my expectations. Maybe I was exptecting too much but I'm certain that my fellow pilots and instructors were responsible for at least some of those failed expectations.

I think as long as the differences between the limitations are properly taught and understood, flying can be as practical and safe as driving (not for every scenario or situation, but for many).

If not for many, at least for enough to make me want to continue. And to be fair, had I understood the limitations when I started I would have done it anyway.

I think maybe where flight schools fall short is not in saying whether or not flying is a practical means of travel, but in understating the amount of training required to get there and the amount of time that must be spent to remain proficient to ensure that flying remains as practical as possible and as safe as possible.

That too.
 
I didn't say PTS, I said the rules and the PTS. That statement is completely correct. I mentioned the PTS because there's lots of old wives' tales out there about that is or is not required, and the PTS covers what the FAA considers important enough to test. I maintain the difference between the required training for private and sport is no hood time and no night time, and that's borne out by the rules and the PTS. If I'm wrong, show me where - by citing the rules and PTS parts that back up your point. I've done so. You haven't.

Jay if you want to be a CFI you better learn to read the *entire* FAR not just a subset that can be "spun" to support your position. The next part of being a competent instructor is to have a consistent and honest position. Your current argument is neither consistent nor honest. You have admited that operations at a controled field are required for PP but not for SP. That is a significant difference and it is beyond your claim of no night and no hood. You've admitted that SP must be less than 120 knots. We haven't even gotten into specific limitations on airspace or on the cross country training requirements. An SP can be certified without ever talking to ATC and that is clearly impossible for a PP. Are these differences significant? You bet they are.

Why do you persist in your fallacy and demand I refer to regs when you have already made these admissions? Hmmmm? Why is it so important to you that I tell you to read 61.107 & 61.109. At this point I have to draw the conclusion that you are unable to admit the error of your claim.


I'm trying to show that the comment - that sport pilots aren't trained enough to be safe - is utter hogwash, by pointing out that the training and testing standards are the same except for those differences that are there because of the difference in privileges in the two tickets. There's a lot of sentiment in the aviation world that sport pilots aren't "real" pilots. That sentiment needs to go away, because it's just plain 100% wrong.

If you want folks to believe you then maybe you should take an honest position rather than continuing to misrepresent the differences in SP and PP.

As for whether or not SP's aren't trained enough, well maybe you don't have the experience to tackle that task. I suggest you drop the chip on your shoulder and move on.
 
It goes on and on, often feels like three steps forward and two steps back. Now don't get me wrong, I would rather fly and deal with all of this than drive any day, but I do feel that the practicality of GA has fallen far short of my expectations. Maybe I was exptecting too much but I'm certain that my fellow pilots and instructors were responsible for at least some of those failed expectations.

Interesting. I'm not sure what my expectations really were when getting into flying. I wasn't thinking about how I could get places or do anything - I just wanted to fly, plain and simple.

Maybe that's why I haven't ever felt let down by GA. I do tend to "go" when a lot of other people don't, but it depends on the mission. If I'm trying to get somewhere, I have no problem fighting a crosswind gusting to 30 knots, but if it's supposed to be a "fun" flight, I'd probably skip it because as much as I kind of enjoy the sense of accomplishment in successfully wrestling the plane to the ground safely, it's not really what I'd call "fun." The few missions that could only be completed via GA (mainly due to distance/time issues) have gone swimmingly - On long trips you can deviate hundreds of miles off the direct course without adding more than a couple dozen miles to the length of the trip, so I mostly feel that weather isn't a problem unless it's very widespread and impenetrable or hovering around the origin or destination.

I think part of it is expectations (I never expected GA to always work, even the airlines can't do that) and part is in backup plans. If I had to get somewhere, I've always gotten there - I've just had to drive a couple of times. If I didn't really have to be there, I've always felt OK with not making it if the weather got ugly - In fact, some flights that I *could have* completed successfully simply would have been more work than I wanted to put into that particular mission.

I'm curious how many people have found that their expectation of the utility of GA was different from how it turned out for them in their own particular case. Maybe I'll post a poll.
 
Jay if you want to be a CFI you better learn to read the *entire* FAR not just a subset that can be "spun" to support your position. The next part of being a competent instructor is to have a consistent and honest position. Your current argument is neither consistent nor honest. You have admited that operations at a controled field are required for PP but not for SP. That is a significant difference and it is beyond your claim of no night and no hood. You've admitted that SP must be less than 120 knots. We haven't even gotten into specific limitations on airspace or on the cross country training requirements. An SP can be certified without ever talking to ATC and that is clearly impossible for a PP. Are these differences significant? You bet they are.

If you go back to the context of the post, Jay's point was that Sport pilots don't need as much training as Private pilots because of the limitations inherent in the operations allowed for Sport pilots. Still 100% true.

Comparing 61.105 and 61.309, I see only one difference: Sport pilots do not have to be trained in "Radio communication procedures." Comparing 61.107 and 61.311, Sport pilots do not have to be trained in "basic instrument maneuvers" and "night operations" exactly as Jay stated.
 
I scarfed up my accident database and did some sorting based on fatal accidents. My database runs from 1998 through 2006.

During that period, about 18% of all accidents involved fatalisties, vs about 25% of all homebuilt accidents.

For the fatal homebuilt accidents, the rate due to pilot mishandling was actually lower...32% vs. nearly 40% for all homebuilt accidents. This implies that the handing characteristics of the plane are not significantly responsible for fatalities.

The accident rates due to builder error and maintanence error are virtually identical. So the higher fatality rate isn't due to these factors.

The rate of fatal accidents involving continued VFR into IFR flight was about 3x higher than the overall rate...as was the accident rates stemming from buzzing!

Compared to the fatal accidents in my control group of 172s/210s, the Cessnas had about five times the accident rate due to VFR into IFR. The rate of fatal maintenance error accidents was about the same. About 5% of the fatal homebuilt accidents involved builder error, vs. about 0.5% of the Cessna control group. The pilot mishandling rates were practically the same, although the pilots involved in homebuilt fatalities had about 50% more flight time.

Ron Wanttaja

Thanks Ron for the work you do and the time you spend in explaining to the masses the true rate for experimentals. It is a stigma us builders hear way too often...

Ben.
 
I scarfed up my accident database and did some sorting based on fatal accidents. My database runs from 1998 through 2006.

During that period, about 18% of all accidents involved fatalisties, vs about 25% of all homebuilt accidents.

For the fatal homebuilt accidents, the rate due to pilot mishandling was actually lower...32% vs. nearly 40% for all homebuilt accidents. This implies that the handing characteristics of the plane are not significantly responsible for fatalities.

The accident rates due to builder error and maintanence error are virtually identical. So the higher fatality rate isn't due to these factors.

The rate of fatal accidents involving continued VFR into IFR flight was about 3x higher than the overall rate...as was the accident rates stemming from buzzing!

Compared to the fatal accidents in my control group of 172s/210s, the Cessnas had about five times the accident rate due to VFR into IFR. The rate of fatal maintenance error accidents was about the same. About 5% of the fatal homebuilt accidents involved builder error, vs. about 0.5% of the Cessna control group. The pilot mishandling rates were practically the same, although the pilots involved in homebuilt fatalities had about 50% more flight time.

Ron Wanttaja


Thanks Ron. Data is way more interesting than pontification. I don't think I was too far off, but obviously I don't have the data to back up my second contention.
 
Let's take a moment and jump back to the original accident. It was in an aircraft that's PIC held a commercial rating.

SInce this was a fly-in with I would have to assume many SP rated pilots flying using the OP's logic then having an advanced rating is more dangerous.
 
In a plane, "we" can practice things that will kill you and recover from them. In a car, to practice them, could very easily ACTUALLY kill you.

Have to disagree with you here.

When we practice power-off (approach to landing) and power-on (takeoff) stalls, we do this at altitude. In doing multi engine training we do Vmc demos at altitude and in-air engine restarts at altitudes. We do this so we have plenty of room to recover in case there is an issue. We do not do this close to the ground. These are items that, if we were to screw up close to the ground, would actually kill us.

In driving, you can do the same. Every winter when it starts snowing and we get our first round of snow/ice on the ground I go to a big empty parking lot and practice all the maneuvers that I may need to deal with at some point over the course of the winter to not crash. The purpose of doing this in a big empty parking lot is the same as doing our flight maneuvers at altitude. I do the same with other emergency maneuvers. As a result, I know the limits of my vehicles. I must be doing something right, as in my some 300,000 miles of driving I've had 0 accidents. It's certainly not been due to staying inside when the weather is ugly and avoiding hazardous road conditions - rather the opposite. I often find myself doing 800 mile days through iced over and snow covered roads, usually with a trailer attached.

Juliett has it right. Sadly, some people are convinced that they know what's best for everyone, and must inflict safeguards upon others so that we don't accidentally hurt ourselves with safety scissors. Said people really need to focus their efforts elsewhere. :rolleyes:
 
Let's take a moment and jump back to the original accident. It was in an aircraft that's PIC held a commercial rating.

SInce this was a fly-in with I would have to assume many SP rated pilots flying using the OP's logic then having an advanced rating is more dangerous.

I better hurry up and forget everything I've learned in my flight training, that way, as a student pilot with zero knowledge or experience, I will be safest. :rolleyes:
 
Apparently the pilot forgot to put the pin in to lock the foldable wings. Since he was about to go up for a photo shoot with another aircraft, I'll bet money he forgot to secure the wing because he was distracted by all the unusual activity around him. It could happen to anyone, from the lowliest student to the hotshot military pilot with the biggest handful of acronyms behind his name.
 
SInce this was a fly-in with I would have to assume many SP rated pilots flying using the OP's logic then having an advanced rating is more dangerous.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that CAR3/Part 23 certificated planes out numbered the ATSM light sport sport certificated planes, 5:1 for the actual flight in. Heck, there were at least 4 Barron's, 3 310's, a couple of Seneca's, an Aerostar, a few Malibu/Meridian's, and countless C172/182/206s, PA28's and the like. The airshow itself featured light sport, but those who flew in, did it in bigger stuff.

Kind of funny to see a PA-46 try to do an approach behind some light sport guy, coming in at mabye 50 knots. Was impressive.
 
Apparently the pilot forgot to put the pin in to lock the foldable wings. Since he was about to go up for a photo shoot with another aircraft, I'll bet money he forgot to secure the wing because he was distracted by all the unusual activity around him. It could happen to anyone, from the lowliest student to the hotshot military pilot with the biggest handful of acronyms behind his name.

but it doesnt have to. the glider community has learned that Critical Assembly Checklists are absolutely required after assembly. They ought to be done by someone independent to the assembly as well, just to be sure. Why would you get in a hurry to assemble your life support system?
 
Gliders tend to be more social and need more people than an engine aircraft. You need a pilot to take you up at minimum. Thus there are always independent people to assist you with pinning the wings. LSA's do not necessarily work like this. Not everything is like gliders.
 
well i guess it just depends on how much you want your wings to stay on. and if this guy was at the Sport Aviatoin Expo, I suspect there were plenty of people around to double check his assembly job. Assuming, of course, that that was the real cause of the accident.
 
How many people here have someone else preflight their aircraft at Fly-ins? Just a cultural difference, all I'm trying to say.
 
well i guess if you dont feel the need to have someone double check your work after you assemble your aircraft, go ahead.
 
Apparently the pilot forgot to put the pin in to lock the foldable wings. Since he was about to go up for a photo shoot with another aircraft, I'll bet money he forgot to secure the wing because he was distracted by all the unusual activity around him. It could happen to anyone, from the lowliest student to the hotshot military pilot with the biggest handful of acronyms behind his name.

If thats the case it is certainly an unfortunate mistake. The loss of life makes it even more difficult in addition to the negative light it shines on these types of gatherings. The aircraft involved looks like a pretty interesting aircraft. Hopefully it won't hurt things too badly in the long run.
 
I don't know Remos, but wouldn't it make sense to have some sort of big ole bright light on the panel indicating that the wings were locked into place? Seems more important than those three green lights I've got on my panel for gear.
 
I don't know Remos, but wouldn't it make sense to have some sort of big ole bright light on the panel indicating that the wings were locked into place? Seems more important than those three green lights I've got on my panel for gear.

The Remos has a wing that folds and twists, to be able to store and trailer it. One thing is, that you have to both disconnect the control linkages, as well as the pins in the front of the wing. The horizontal stabilizer also comes off, should you care to remove it as well. On the outside of the wing, at the front of the leading edge, is a small point, with a bolt on each point. One of the preflight checks is to check both the bolt, and the linkages. I've seen some speculation on that, it may have been the linkage's that were not connected, thus giving them no alieron control.

Anyway, here is the best picture of mine, that shows the small bolt, and the attach point.

wingattach.jpg
 
modern airplane with detachable wings and no automatic hookups? too bad. a positive control check is another life saver, but it requires a friend...
 
I would like to apologize to Jay Maynard for my post regarding the Sport/Private Pilot certification rules. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate. I have removed it.
 
modern airplane with detachable wings and no automatic hookups? too bad. a positive control check is another life saver, but it requires a friend...

Why does a control check require a friend? A pilot should be able to see that the ailerons move in the proper direction from the cockpit. If he wants to check the security of the link, he can block the stick/yolk (control lock or with the seat belt) and try to move the ailerons by hand.
 
I figured a fly-in of pilots of sport or experimental aircraft is likely to produce a fatality. It's like AirVenture kills at least one person per year on average. From what I've been told, the coroner's office actually keeps someone at AirVenture annually because of this.

The reason I figured this had an extremely good chance of killing someone because of the following. Just to frame my opinion: This is speaking solely of those who are new to aviation and not those who are PPLs who lost their medicals whom I don't believe are "really" sport pilots. My stance is that just turning people loose with less training in less sturdy aircraft is a bad idea.

Makes me think of a quote I heard a long time ago, "'Tis better to keep your mouth shut and have others think you are a fool than to open it and leave no doubt."
 
I would like to apologize to Jay Maynard for my post regarding the Sport/Private Pilot certification rules. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate. I have removed it.

Even Tiger occasionally hits one he'd like to have back. I, on the other hand . . . :rofl:
 
I would like to apologize to Jay Maynard for my post regarding the Sport/Private Pilot certification rules. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate. I have removed it.

Everyone is entitled to a bad day occasionally. Nice to see this example of character from both of you. Sets a nice standard for me to attempt to follow.
 
I would like to apologize to Jay Maynard for my post regarding the Sport/Private Pilot certification rules. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate. I have removed it.

Ron, I knew you would make this right. It proves that you are the professional that I beleive you are. Thank you.
 
I accept your apology, with thanks.

Good on you for being understanding. It could have degenerated into a bad situation and I'm glad to see you guys worked it out.

BTW, thanks for defending SP from the naysayers. You've been doing a great job and the facts and arguments you've presented are right on with a very few minor instances already covered.

When you finish up your CFI SP, give Able Flight a call. We're always looking for motivated instructors.
 
You've been complaining about it, but when facts that render your argument hollow are presented, you ignore them. Just what is it that makes a private pilot at 40 hours and a shiny new piece of paper safer than a sport pilot at 20 hours with his shiny new piece of paper for operations within the limitations of a sport pilot ticket?

It doesn't. They both need more flying experience before they should be turned loose (IMHO). My concern is with the idea that somehow putting a few restrictions on sport pilots means that reducing the minimum experience is not a logical approach.


This is not a matter of the sport pilot rule. This is a matter of the simple fact that airplanes are expensive and safety features are heavy. Fixing it would require not only improved power to weight ratios, and lower fuel burns, but also scrapping hundreds of thousands of older aircraft that don't meet the standards you advocate.
Not any more than airbags being installed in most or all new cars required every muscle car to be scrapped.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would think that maybe not being able to do a loop in an aircraft or sacrificing a few knots of airspeed is worth a lesser chance of burning alive after a crash. Also, a lot of the changes would not require scrapping anything. Better restraints that could be retrofitted into an older aircraft would be a major bonus to safety and would not be a burden to most aircraft.



You can, and will, get just as dead in a 1946 J-3 or a 1979 172 as you will in my 2008 Zodiac.

Dead is dead, but there seem to be some differences in the case fatality rate (in other words, your chances of dying in a given crash). The difference is similar to striking a tree in a semi versus doing it on a motorcycle. You could get killed in the semi, but you're a hell of a lot more likely to die on the motorcycle because of a lack of protection. If you choose to fly an older aircraft or even drive a Pinto, I don't care, but I will still do my best to make sure that new aircraft are as safe as they can be made.

The only answer is pilots. We, as pilots, hold our safety pretty much completely in our own hands. You're right in that we need to train safe pilots - but that's true no matter what certificate they hold and no matter what aircraft they fly.

I agree that pilots are the most important part of the solution, but engineering safer aircraft is still a goal we should work towards and not try to simply go "Oh, well you COULD die in that plane too." It seems we are working towards a similar goal but just looking at different approaches to it. My suggestion (take it or tell me to cram it up my ass.....either way) is that we not argue over it but that we all try to work in our own ways but in a collective manner towards addressing the issues- all of them- so that regardless of what you chose to fly, another family doesn't have to grieve over a death that was avoidable.
 
Why does a control check require a friend? A pilot should be able to see that the ailerons move in the proper direction from the cockpit. If he wants to check the security of the link, he can block the stick/yolk (control lock or with the seat belt) and try to move the ailerons by hand.

A *Positive* control check certainly requires a friend. You arent just checking that the control moves in the correct direction, you are checking that the entire control circuit is correctly attached. To do so you need to have resistance at the control surface when you move the stick, and have the person at the control surface move that surface while you provide resistance at the stick.

Many examples of accidents where the controls were incorrectly hooked up, or completely disconnected, but when the pilot moved the stick, the controls still moved due to pushrods bumping against bellcranks, etc.
 
You seem to believe that private pilots take their checkrides at 40 hours and sport pilots take their checkrides at 20 hours. :dunno:

The minimum *required* experience is the minimum for a reason. Every person is different and learns differently and frankly, starts from a different position.

Point taken.


You can't possibly train a new pilot to be able to handle every situation they're going to come across on their own, no matter how many hours you make them fly.

Right, but experience has been shown to decrease the fatality rate (with a couple of exceptions if you look at Dr. O'Hare's research out of University of Otago in NZ). It's more of an experience issue vs. "training".

That is borne out by the new revelation that the accident airplane in the case of the OP was being flown by a *commercial* pilot.

My concern for this crash is more with the structural integrity of it rather than the pilot. The assumption that it was a SP flying the aircraft was made by someone else and the conversation went from there.


If a 250+ hour pilot with several checkrides under his belt can still crash a light sport airplane, then clearly more than 250 hours of training should be required to fly a light sport airplane, by your logic.

In this case, it appears he made a ridiculously stupid mistake that cost his passenger his life and came very close to costing him his own.


Even the low amount of training required now keeps the vast majority of the population out.

And that is not necessarily as terrible a thing as you make it seem.

The key is baby steps. The first one is our first solo. The next is our pilot certificate, be it sport or private. I think that the pilot certificate should be viewed as the second level of solo: When you first soloed, you were allowed to manipulate the controls without a CFI watching over you in the cockpit. This "second solo" that we get when we earn a pilot certificate simply allows us to manipulate the *decisions* without a CFI watching over us, as well as carry passengers.

Perhaps it would be best to strongly encourage new pilots to fly with a more experienced pilot (but not necessarily a CFI) during their first few dozen hours after their PPL? This approach (akin to starting a new commercial pilot off as a first officer rather than as a captain) might be a way for us to improve safety and give an excuse for us to be even more tight-knit as a group. Not that we need another reason to socialize..... :D
As I've said many times - Only push the envelope one corner at a time, but you MUST push the envelope to become a better pilot.

I could not agree more.

Aren't you the guy who's looking through this already? Don't you have those numbers? I'd love to see them.

Well, I'm looking into the frequency of injuries. I've not been focusing on the non-injury vs injury vs fatal injury data since the non-injury subset isn't represented in the data I look at. However, once I get the data fully analyzed (most likely this summer), you are welcome to take a look. Actually, it will be published most likely so everyone will be able to look at it and point out any issues or concerns.
 
Makes me think of a quote I heard a long time ago, "'Tis better to keep your mouth shut and have others think you are a fool than to open it and leave no doubt."
Given the amount of conjecture and misconception that circulate around aviation safety (especially in certain subsets), I think a lot of people- myself included at times- can actually apply that. I don't think I'm 100% correct (no one ever is) but I often talk just to put ideas out there and seek input from those with more practical experience than myself. Unfortunately, given the really rigid attitudes of a vocal minority of persons on each side of the argument, it is usually taken as me being "anti-SP", "anti-experimental", etc. I'm "anti-dead pilots and passengers" and nothing else.

In your case, it's also better to use your original account than to start a new one just to try to insult someone. ;)
 
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Right, but experience has been shown to decrease the fatality rate (with a couple of exceptions if you look at Dr. O'Hare's research out of University of Otago in NZ). It's more of an experience issue vs. "training".

"Training" is what you get with a CFI, or maybe even just a more experienced pilot, in the other seat. "Experience" is something you must earn on your own.

If there is any area of required experience that should be increased, it is cross country time. Cross country flights get you into different situations that you will learn from, situations that simply cannot be duplicated flying in the local area. I'd like to see the 3 hours of dual and 5 hours of solo cross country increased dramatically - Say, 10 each. Nothing says you can't practice your airwork on the way...

I'd also like to see more than one long cross country required for the Commercial. Say, two >500nm cross country flights with destinations >300nm apart, and 5 300nm cross countries with destinations >100nm apart. Get the hell out of the nest and learn something!

FWIW, I think this way because I know that personally I have learned a lot of extremely valuable lessons on cross country flights and flights that weren't technically cross countries but originated a long way from home (for example, Oregon and Florida when I live in Wisconsin). I just hit 700 hours total time last week, but I have 470 cross country and I feel like I'm a much better pilot for it.

And that is not necessarily as terrible a thing as you make it seem.

No, I don't want Joe Sixpack getting into an airplane and pulling "watch this" tricks. But for those with the smarts to be able to fly safely, we need as many people as possible to be pilots for the health of GA. Right now, the pilot population is controlled mostly by money, not brains. Sport Pilot is a way for those with less money but just as much intelligence to enjoy aviation, and that's a GREAT thing.

Perhaps it would be best to strongly encourage new pilots to fly with a more experienced pilot (but not necessarily a CFI) during their first few dozen hours after their PPL? This approach (akin to starting a new commercial pilot off as a first officer rather than as a captain) might be a way for us to improve safety

I don't entirely agree. The key is to get pilots to be making their own decisions. Maybe a pre-flight conference with an experienced pilot or CFI to discuss things that they might run into, but you've really gotta get out of the nest on your own to develop the skill of being pilot in command.

I think the reason that newer commercial pilots start out as FO's is that they can be an FO with only a commercial (250 hour) certificate but need their ATP (1500 hours) to be captain. Also, they can't really get time in type any other way, and I'm sure they want the captains to have a fair amount of time in type in more than just a sim. It's not like you can go rent these things!
 
A *Positive* control check certainly requires a friend. You arent just checking that the control moves in the correct direction, you are checking that the entire control circuit is correctly attached. To do so you need to have resistance at the control surface when you move the stick, and have the person at the control surface move that surface while you provide resistance at the stick.

Many examples of accidents where the controls were incorrectly hooked up, or completely disconnected, but when the pilot moved the stick, the controls still moved due to pushrods bumping against bellcranks, etc.

That's what I thought your intent was and included the part about somehow locking the stick/yolk in position and going out and trying to move the ailerons by hand. Sort of the reverse of having someone hold the aileron while the you try to move the stick/yolk.
 
A *Positive* control check certainly requires a friend. You arent just checking that the control moves in the correct direction, you are checking that the entire control circuit is correctly attached. To do so you need to have resistance at the control surface when you move the stick, and have the person at the control surface move that surface while you provide resistance at the stick.

Many examples of accidents where the controls were incorrectly hooked up, or completely disconnected, but when the pilot moved the stick, the controls still moved due to pushrods bumping against bellcranks, etc.
Happened to a friend of mine. He'd built a light single-seater, and modified the aileron system to a pushrod type with quick-disconnects. One flight, he took off with one of push-disconnects-disconnected. It worked fine on the control check...when he moved the stick to the left, the pushrod pushed the left aileron upward. When he moved the stick to the right, the weight of the aileron made the pushrod follow the linkage as it moved.

When he got aloft, the linkage dropped away and he found his left aileron didn't work. Since both ailerons were pushrod-operated, the right aileron was working find and he turned back to land. But when he made his base-to-final turn, the disconnected linkage at the stick pulled out so far that it dropped out it its guide hole. When he tried to level the wings, the linkage jammed into the wing root. He came down in a steep descending turn, crashing practically at his wife's feet. The video she shot was incredible (albeit terminating at the moment of impact).

The video then restarts with him walking around the wreckage, poking at it with a foot, as he hugs an arm tight (broken collarbone) and people are hollering at him to get in the damn car NOW so they can take him to the hospital. It was his fourth accident, you see. Guess he was getting used to it... :smile:

Ron Wanttaja
 
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