FARS Vs PIC

[Richard]

...that's when he saw the hole. It had always been there. Not always, in the sense that it is a permanent thing, a thing to be counted on to be used at leisure, but always there in that it was there when he needed it. And he needed it now...that thing about all things being relative...Einstein was right, relative to his need the hole has always been there. The hole was there now, just as he needed it to be there.

The regs on minimum cloud separation be damned, he's gonna' climb right up through that hole and get on top. Being on top meant he was not below that ragged ass overcast layer, caught between the jagged peaks and the overlying cloud layer, caught in a half daylight filtered down through a semi-opaque cloud. It meant he was not in the bumps getting bruised by the turbulence, it meant he didn't have to worry any longer about the rising terrain which, in a few miles more, would climb right into the clouds. It meant he didn't have to worry about being put into the corner of THE BOX. It also meant he could now enjoy the unbroken panorama of being above the overcast and, being there, he could slow down his thoughts as he enjoyed basking in the glorious sunshine.

That is the thing about being PIC, Pilot in command. It would be his ass on the line to ensure the safety of his flight. No rule could accomplish that. Why the hell is the rule there anyway? It must be the lawyers. Lawyers love this kind of ****. Makes them feel needed, he guessed. Nevermind, he felt good now; the clouds and any rocks they hid were now safely below him. By climbing through that forbidden cloud-hole he had actually improved the safe conduit of his flight, as actual as his busting the regulation about flying too close to clouds.

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The above is excerpted from a rough draft of a short story I am writing. Never mind that, the subject of this post is not for literary critique. However, if from what I have written you can develop a sense of being there, would you do as the story suggests?

 

[SkyHog]

I don't think I would. Instead, I'd try to avoid the situation.

But then again I am a very low time private pilot.

 

[fgcason]

Swap ends. Go back. Rethink plan.

If I managed to seriously screw up a lot of things leading up to that point in the story then the hole would be a very welcome sight...But last time I heard the Huturi Tribe didn't have airplanes and they couldn't heave their spears very high.

 

[Henning]

...that's when he saw the hole. It had always been there.
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The above is excerpted from a rough draft of a short story I am writing. Never mind that, the subject of this post is not for literary critique. However, if from what I have written you can develop a sense of being there, would you do as the story suggests?

Have I used the hole, you betcha, both directions. Do I launch expecting to use the hole, nope. It's one of those things you do just shy of an emergency, and typically I'm already talking to ATC in a VFR only aircraft, otherwise I'll just call in for a Pop Up or Down clearance.

 

[poadeleted3]

No, I wouldn't. It's just not right to endanger the lives of whoever might legally be in that layer simply because I think I'm too special to have to obey the regs.

 

[Len Lanetti]

The above is excerpted from a rough draft of a short story I am writing. Never mind that, the subject of this post is not for literary critique. However, if from what I have written you can develop a sense of being there, would you do as the story suggests?

Richard,

Good luck with the story but a friendly word of advice...don't give up the day job. :<)

As for the question...have I as PIC ever gone on top or descended while under VFR without obeying cloud separation standards. No.

Would I ever do that...only under true emergency conditions and hopefully I never put myself into or otherwise get into those conditions.

Hopefully your story doesn't put pilots in a bad light...making us appear to be reckless by disregarding rules.

Len

 

[gismo]

In a word, no. In many words: When I was a VFR only pilot, I would have been scared to death of squeaking through an illegally small hole, fully expecting it to close in below me as soon as I climbed through. As a somewhat experienced IFR pilot I have a much greater appreciation for the potential to swap paint when playing near the edge of clouds. Also IME when it's a struggle to get on top legally, there's a pretty good chance that the tops will rise faster than your plane can and no convenient holes will appear to offer an exit.

 

[Dean]

When I was taking my PP lessons, my instructor had me fly through a legal whole and go VFR on top. After we were up there for a short time, the whole closed up and we had a solid layer under us. He asked me "now What? what would you do if you were here by yourself? He did this to make a point that this is not a good practice to get into. He called ATC and got a clearance to go back down and we finished the lesson. That is one lesson I will never forget.

 

[poadeleted20]

Have I used the hole, you betcha, both directions. Do I launch expecting to use the hole, nope. It's one of those things you do just shy of an emergency, and typically I'm already talking to ATC in a VFR only aircraft, otherwise I'll just call in for a Pop Up or Down clearance.

What Henning said -- "For emergency use only," or nearly so. The key, as noted by Nick, is to use your superior judgement to avoid having to demonstrate your superior skill. And I most strongly recommend against popping up through a hole unless you are instrument rated in an IFR-capable aircraft or it's an honest-to-Pete emergency with no better option for survival. If you don't meet those criteria and you're below the clouds and have an airport where you can land in VMC, do that before you pop up, even if it means landing short of your intended destination or even right back at your departure airport.

Oh, and did I ever do anything that dumb when I was younger and less restrained? You betcha. But I ain't that bold no more, and I recognize that only sheer luck got me through it. Fortunately, I've been able to convert luck to experience, but I know that I've used at least my fair share of luck, so now I have to rely on experience. The problem with luck is that you don't know ahead of time when it's going to run out, and while experience can be shared, luck cannot.

 

[BillG]

The subject of the story has a reckless, anti-authority attitude. It's his butt if he gets stuck on top. But it's the legal IFR pilot's butt if they meet in the clouds.

 

[silver-eagle]

Being a relatively low time pilot, I've been wrestling with an extended cross country of about 200 miles over (and or through) the White Mountains. Part of the issue is every time I've driven it, the route has been overcast or fog shrouded with Wx issuing an AIRMET for mountain fog. So how to get there safely?
On top is a choice since I can guarentee I won't launch until it is VFR at home, and VFR where I'm headed. But to be 'ON TOP' and not IFR or IFR rated doesn't even sound safe. It's a risk I haven't taken yet and don't think I will.

 

[sere]

Was tempted but never did. Now I am IFR it is not an issue. Will get with ATC and do it right.

 

[grattonja]

Being a relatively low time pilot, I've been wrestling with an extended cross country of about 200 miles over (and or through) the White Mountains. Quote}

I don't recommend going through a White Mountain. Have not been over them yet but they look just as hard and solid as the Green Mountains.

Jim G

 

[bbchien]

Sometimes the hole turns out to be a barrel.....

 

[Anthony]

I have never climbed through a broken layer to get on top. I have many times climbed through a scattered layer to get on top. A few times, the scattered layer turned more broken than scattered and each time I consider turning back. Using all the weather info I have, Flightwatch and AWOS, ASOS, ATIS along the route of my flight, will determine how far I push it. The few times this has happened to me usually the conditions improved and I was able to continue. When either the conditions were not improving along my route of flight according to the weather reprots or the little voice was telling me I was getting into trouble I would turn back and either proceed under the cloud layer (terrain permitting) or go home. The real problem comes when that scattered layer you climbed through has now become broken or overcast. So, typically I don't do the above.

 

[gismo]

Being a relatively low time pilot, I've been wrestling with an extended cross country of about 200 miles over (and or through) the White Mountains. Part of the issue is every time I've driven it, the route has been overcast or fog shrouded with Wx issuing an AIRMET for mountain fog. So how to get there safely?
On top is a choice since I can guarentee I won't launch until it is VFR at home, and VFR where I'm headed. But to be 'ON TOP' and not IFR or IFR rated doesn't even sound safe. It's a risk I haven't taken yet and don't think I will.

IMO the wise VFR pilot will fly "on top" only when an acceptable opening is within visual range. Trapped on top over mountains isn't likely to be a very comfortable place. Now if that fog or overcast is sporadic and not covering all the valleys I'd say OK, but again only so long as you can always see a place where you could get down safely.

 

[Richard]

What about the IFR guy who is there legally? What about the PP planning in a non-emergency that put you there? What about his anti-authority attitude? What about any of that?

Would it make a difference if this was AK, or South America, or any of those bush places where guys habitually push the limits? As example, what we in the lower 48 consider VFR can be vastly different than what the guys in AK consider VFR.

I have climbed through a hole. On a checkride no less. I had my reasons and I passed. I've done it once after that, a spiral descent from tops at 11.5 to 5.5 base. That was a 10 mile hole but closing. I was in contact with and directly above an AFB. I don't make it a sport. But having weighed it all if I decide it's safe I'm going.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

What about the IFR guy who is there legally? What about the PP planning in a non-emergency that put you there? What about his anti-authority attitude? What about any of that?

Would it make a difference if this was AK, or South America, or any of those bush places where guys habitually push the limits? As example, what we in the lower 48 consider VFR can be vastly different than what the guys in AK consider VFR.

I have climbed through a hole. On a checkride no less. I had my reasons and I passed. I've done it once after that, a spiral descent from tops at 11.5 to 5.5 base. That was a 10 mile hole but closing. I was in contact with and directly above an AFB. I don't make it a sport. But having weighed it all if I decide it's safe I'm going.

You made one very important distinction on "where the hole is"... i.e. out in the toolies, the probabilty of an encounter is small, astronomically to the Nth degree, so with training, it could be safe for the pilot.

But 10 miles ? That ain't a hole, that's the sky !

True small holes ? Only after hood & actual PIC training doing real tight up/down spirals and 60 degree constant alt 1080s at the least. Chances are, to "save your life" while voluntarily risking others AND breaking a FAA Reg, you're main danger is getting through it with minimal IFR experience.

And with experience, I think most pilots would go for it if they "had" to but, be kicking themselves quite severly for getting into that spot in the first place.

 

[poadeleted3]

snip
Would it make a difference if this was AK, or South America, or any of those bush places where guys habitually push the limits? As example, what we in the lower 48 consider VFR can be vastly different than what the guys in AK consider VFR.

snipQUOTE]

A quick check of the accident rates in Alaska and South America kinda tells me that they are not the people to look to for safety tips...

 

[Richard]

But 10 miles ? That ain't a hole, that's the sky !

True, but by the time I finished the descent the hole had closed. It was interesting to lose 6,000 in a spiral all the while allowing to be blown downwind in order to stay close to the center of a rapidly diminishing hole. Lucky for me too, because I didn't see another hole from there to my destination another 50 miles distant.

 

[Richard]

A quick check of the accident rates in Alaska and South America kinda tells me that they are not the people to look to for safety tips...

Think of it this way, NASCAR drivers think the highways are most dangerous...and they're right. They just do a different type of flying up there. Inexperienced need not apply.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Think of it this way, NASCAR drivers think the highways are most dangerous...and they're right. They just do a different type of flying up there. Inexperienced need not apply.

Quite right.

The AK weather's much more changeable and malicious in a very rapid way and those pilot's are typically doing things much more risky, to reap greater rewards than elsewhere. Losses are bound to be higher and that's the pilot's perogative.

 

[Everskyward]

The above is excerpted from a rough draft of a short story I am writing. Never mind that, the subject of this post is not for literary critique. However, if from what I have written you can develop a sense of being there, would you do as the story suggests?

This is not intended as "literary critique".

But I'm wondering who your intended audience is. Reading this, I think many pilots can feel a sense of being there and making this decision. However, I don't think non-pilots will have any idea about the reasoning behind regulations concerning cloud clearance requirements. In fact I'll bet virtually no one knows they exist. They'll just think, "No brainer, why doesn't he just go up through the clouds. And why is is he tearing himself up about this?"

Just my 2 cents which may only be worth one cent by now.

 

[Len Lanetti]

"No brainer, why doesn't he just go up through the clouds. And why is is he tearing himself up about this?"

Prior to the JFK Jr accident I would have agreed.

Since the JFK Jr accident it seams like everyone has some understanding that you need additional training to fly when you can't see out the window.

Len

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

True, but by the time I finished the descent the hole had closed. It was interesting to lose 6,000 in a spiral all the while allowing to be blown downwind in order to stay close to the center of a rapidly diminishing hole. Lucky for me too, because I didn't see another hole from there to my destination another 50 miles distant.

Was it pretty windy ? ...so in say, a spiralling slip on down through at say, 1500 fpm or so for 4 minutes would put the windward edge closing in at something like over 60 knots to cover something less than the original 10 miles diameter ?

 

[Everskyward]

Since the JFK Jr accident it seams like everyone has some understanding that you need additional training to fly when you can't see out the window.

True, but reading the story I think the conflict that the pilot feels has nothing to do with whether or not he has the ability to circle up through the hole. Somehow, I think that's a given, but maybe not. I guess only the author knows.

The conflict comes when he's trying to decide between staying legal and saving himself. That's the part I don't think the general public would understand.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Prior to the JFK Jr accident I would have agreed.

Since the JFK Jr accident it seams like everyone has some understanding that you need additional training to fly when you can't see out the window.

Len

I always could tell most pilots knew IFR was nothing to fool with. JFK I think showed the few that didn't accept its reality, even though they knew of it, that a semi-arrogant attitude COMBINED with minimal training is what feeds the IFR fatality column.

 

[poadeleted20]

I always could tell most pilots knew IFR was nothing to fool with. JFK I think showed the few that didn't accept its reality, even though they knew of it, that a semi-arrogant attitude COMBINED with minimal training is what feeds the IFR fatality column.

The JFK Jr accident occurred in VMC under VFR. True, it was marginal conditions, and there were no visual attitude references once he got out over the Sound, but I don't think arrogance had much to do with his decision. He had a long record of flying with non-required instructors on routine flights. I think it was more an issue of an inability to stand up to his wife and sister-in-law and say, "No, we are NOT going to fly there in the dark because I am not up to the task, so you call and tell your AWOL sister if she isn't here by 3, we're leaving without her." I might even file this one under the hazardous attitude of "resignation" -- "Well, there's nothing I can do about the fact that sister-in-law is late, and the wedding is on, so we'll just have to wait for her to get here and go when she arrives."

 

[Len Lanetti]

Ron,

Are you saying that you think JFK Jr. knew (or even had an inkling) that he was not proficient enough to make the flight?

Len

 

[bbchien]

The JFK Jr accident occurred in VMC under VFR. True, it was marginal conditions, and there were no visual attitude references once he got out over the Sound, but I don't think arrogance had much to do with his decision. He had a long record of flying with non-required instructors on routine flights. I think it was more an issue of an inability to stand up to his wife and sister-in-law and say, "No, we are NOT going to fly there in the dark because I am not up to the task, so you call and tell your AWOL sister if she isn't here by 3, we're leaving without her." I might even file this one under the hazardous attitude of "resignation" -- "Well, there's nothing I can do about the fact that sister-in-law is late, and the wedding is on, so we'll just have to wait for her to get here and go when she arrives."

Agree 100%. Another human factors accident. And then the Bissets sued to clean out the estate.

I have at times even told my father that he was AWOL and that he would miss fishing in Canada, as I do NOT go into gravel strips after sunset. Aviation is a hard taskmistress. Sadly, those that aren't up to the "No, we are NOT...." decision are usually NOT aware that they are not up to that decision.....

 

[poadeleted3]

Ron,

Are you saying that you think JFK Jr. knew (or even had an inkling) that he was not proficient enough to make the flight?

Len

Have you ever taken off with that inkling, then convinced yourself you were trained to handle it.

 

[bbchien]

Yes. And as a young LT I should died about half a dozen times. "Your gut is talking to you, son..."

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you saying that you think JFK Jr. knew (or even had an inkling) that he was not proficient enough to make the flight?

Dunno -- I wasn't in his head at the time he launched. But if you read the report, I think you'll see he was not in the habit of pushing his own limits, and over 75% of his 310 hours were flown with a CFI aboard (he racked up more dual in 310 hours TT than I have in almost 7000 hours), although he did turn down the offer of a CFI to ride with him on the accident flight.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&akey=1

 

[poadeleted3]

Yes. And as a young LT I should died about half a dozen times. "Your gut is talking to you, son..."

Me too, every time I take off with my family on board. I guess it's a product of having only 12 hrs solo when I got my ticket. Now I've got 30 PIC, but I still have to convince myself I'm not going to off my family. Hopefully, that goes away as a fly more with them! In the meantime, I'm pretty conservative in my decision making.

 

[Anthony]

although he did turn down the offer of a CFI to ride with him on the accident flight.

Which may indicate a bit of either arrogance, in that he wanted to impress his wife and sister in law (fear that they would not think he was a "real" pilot), or he wanted to finally cut the apron string of haiving CFI's with him most of the time. Pure speculaiton on my part obviously.

 

[poadeleted20]

Which may indicate a bit of either arrogance, in that he wanted to impress his wife and sister in law (fear that they would not think he was a "real" pilot), or he wanted to finally cut the apron string of haiving CFI's with him most of the time. Pure speculaiton on my part obviously.

Might be arrogance, might be fear of looking incompetent -- the two are not by any means the same. That's why the FAA includes "resignation" and "invulnerability" and "macho" in their list of hazardous attitudes. If you do their hazardous attitude training course, you'll see that any one of the five can be the reason for doing the same wrong thing.

 

[Richard]

Was it pretty windy ? ...so in say, a spiralling slip on down through at say, 1500 fpm or so for 4 minutes would put the windward edge closing in at something like over 60 knots to cover something less than the original 10 miles diameter ?

I just found that flight in my logbook. It was indeed windy. Sfc wnds were 290 25G32 reported 10 sm from the AFB. I was enjoying a massive tailwind and now remember I didn't want to decend, even though it was time to do so. In the spiral descent I had a small lake directly below me. I tried to keep that as my reference to avoid wandering over a busy AFB. But I couldn't keep that lake under me and maintain VFR. By the time I leveled out at my new alt the lake was about 4 nm upwind of me.

There was a departing flight of 4 C-130s somewhere blo me and an inbound flight of 3 C-130s in 2 mile trail somewhere downwind of me. The controller would call out the traffic but until I had them in sight it was seeing is believing. It turned out I was about 500' above the inbound flight as they crossed my path 12 o'clock, 1 nm. Very cool.

 

[Henning]

Would I ever do that...only under true emergency conditions and hopefully I never put myself into or otherwise get into those conditions.
Len

Every time it's happenned to me, I've had a "Beautiful Day for VFR Flight Along Your Route" type of weather briefing, only to have the skies close in on me in a matter of minutes. Nobodies fault really, just the weather being the weather.

 

[BillG]

Me too, every time I take off with my family on board. I guess it's a product of having only 12 hrs solo when I got my ticket. Now I've got 30 PIC, but I still have to convince myself I'm not going to off my family. Hopefully, that goes away as a fly more with them! In the meantime, I'm pretty conservative in my decision making.

Heyyy, that brings back memories. That used to happen to me, too. I'm not even sure when it went away, but it gradually dies out (oooh - bad choice of words - it gradually fades out would be better...)

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The JFK Jr accident occurred in VMC under VFR. True, it was marginal conditions, and there were no visual attitude references once he got out over the Sound, but I don't think arrogance had much to do with his decision. He had a long record of flying with non-required instructors on routine flights. I think it was more an issue of an inability to stand up to his wife and sister-in-law and say, "No, we are NOT going to fly there in the dark because I am not up to the task, so you call and tell your AWOL sister if she isn't here by 3, we're leaving without her." I might even file this one under the hazardous attitude of "resignation" -- "Well, there's nothing I can do about the fact that sister-in-law is late, and the wedding is on, so we'll just have to wait for her to get here and go when she arrives."

Judging from the downwardly spiralling radar track just prior to impact I'd say rather than legal night VFR the reality for the PIC was at least MIFR (NIGHT) if not total night IFR.