FAR 61.57 Recent flight experience: PIC

[KKissmann]

So as pilots, we all know that in order to fly at night with passengers, we must be night current.

FAR 61.57 says, " no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—
(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required)."

But, what if the PIC of the airplane is not night current? And there is another soul on board. But that other person is not a passenger, but is second in command of the airplane, who is night current. Can the PIC legally be PIC and land the airplane? Or must the SIC pilot take controls on final and land?

 

[Larry in TN]

What does 61.57 say about a flight that has no passengers?

When does 61.57 allow a pilot to "take the controls on landing"?

 

[midlifeflyer]

So as pilots, we all know that in order to fly at night with passengers, we must be night current.

FAR 61.57 says, " no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—
(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required)."

But, what if the PIC of the airplane is not night current? And there is another soul on board. But that other person is not a passenger, but is second in command of the airplane, who is night current. Can the PIC legally be PIC and land the airplane? Or must the SIC pilot take controls on final and land?

I'm completely confused by the question because of the bold part. What does "being PIC" have to do with who is manipulating the controls of the airplane?

Are you thinking that the captain (PIC) of an airliner stops being captain (PIC) when the first office (SIC) takes the controls? He doesn't. Are you thinking that if you allow your 10 year old niece to fly a bit, she becomes the PIC?

Acting as ("being") PIC is about duty, authority and responsibility, not about who has his or her hands on the controls.

 

[MikeELP]

To add to what Mark posted above:


Assuming that the OP is asking about a part 91 GA night flight:

Pilot "A" is flying, not night current. Pilot "B" is sitting in the other seat and is night current.

Pilot "A" is the passenger. He LOGS PIC time for the flight as sole manipulator and the take-offs/landings to get his night currency back.

Pilot "B" ACTS as PIC, but in this case can log nothing.

 

[KKissmann]

To add to what Mark posted above:


Assuming that the OP is asking about a part 91 GA night flight:

Pilot "A" is flying, not night current. Pilot "B" is sitting in the other seat and is night current.

Pilot "A" is the passenger. He LOGS PIC time for the flight as sole manipulator and the take-offs/landings to get his night currency back.

Pilot "B" ACTS as PIC, but in this case can log nothing.

Yes, sorry I am talking about GA night flight.

So,there's two PIC pilots then technically but only one can log anytime in the logbook. Would pilot "B" be able to log as safety pilot?

 

[Kritchlow]

To add to what Mark posted above:


Assuming that the OP is asking about a part 91 GA night flight:

Pilot "A" is flying, not night current. Pilot "B" is sitting in the other seat and is night current.

Pilot "A" is the passenger. He LOGS PIC time for the flight as sole manipulator and the take-offs/landings to get his night currency back.

Pilot "B" ACTS as PIC, but in this case can log nothing.

I'm REALLY bad at this stuff, but...

Can't pilot B log the time if they are an ATP ?

 

[JoeSelch]

Yes, sorry I am talking about GA night flight.

So,there's two PIC pilots then technically but only one can log anytime in the logbook. Would pilot "B" be able to log as safety pilot?

What's the definition of "safety pilot"?

 

[Kritchlow]

I'm REALLY bad at this stuff, but...

Can't pilot B log the time if they are an ATP ?

Just researched this... Looks like the answer use to always be yes, but they revised the reg in Aug 1997. Now it's only if two crew are required. So, a small airplane part 91 the answer would be no. If it were a required two pilot operation / airplane, it would be yes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, sorry I am talking about GA night flight.

So,there's two PIC pilots then technically but only one can log anytime in the logbook. Would pilot "B" be able to log as safety pilot?

No. Look at the definition of "pilot in command" in FAR 1.1. The close your eyes and think about it for a moment.

Can there be more than one person who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;"

The rule, must to the consternation of some, allows for more than one person to log PIC time in their flight records in certain situations, but that doesn't change the rule that only one person can ultimately be in charge.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just researched this... Looks like the answer use to always be yes, but they revised the reg in Aug 1997. Now it's only if two crew are required. So, a small airplane part 91 the answer would be no. If it were a required two pilot operation / airplane, it would be yes.

Interesting. I just looked at my copy of Part 91 before the revision. Someone probably figured there was no reason to give an ATP special logging privileges in a Cessna 150.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What's the definition of "safety pilot"?

It's the person referred to as "safety pilot" in FAR 91.109(c).

 

[ghogue]

But, what if the PIC of the airplane is not night current? And there is another soul on board. But that other person is not a passenger, but is second in command of the airplane, who is night current. Can the PIC legally be PIC and land the airplane? Or must the SIC pilot take controls on final and land?

Your question has been answered, however I just wanted to make sure you understand that the non-current pilot is not just prohibited from being PIC during the night landing or takeoff, he cannot be PIC at all.

 

[John Collins]

Your question has been answered, however I just wanted to make sure you understand that the non-current pilot is not just prohibited from being PIC during the night landing or takeoff, he cannot be PIC at all.

With respect to the OP question, this is true. But nothing prohibits the non-current pilot from making the three circuits solo and as the PIC.

Also, night begins before 1 hour after sunset and ends after 1 hour before sunrise, so there is a period of nighttime that passengers are legal to be carried and the pilot does not need to be night current. If you arrive with passengers 45 minutes after sunset, it is probably night, but the night currency requirement for acting as PIC with passengers has not kicked in.

There is also a FAA General Counsel opinion that if the flight involves training from an instructor, neither need to be night current as neither are a passenger of the other.

 

[ghogue]

With respect to the OP question, this is true. But nothing prohibits the non-current pilot from making the three circuits solo and as the PIC.

Also, night begins before 1 hour after sunset and ends after 1 hour before sunrise, so there is a period of nighttime that passengers are legal to be carried and the pilot does not need to be night current. If you arrive with passengers 45 minutes after sunset, it is probably night, but the night currency requirement for acting as PIC with passengers has not kicked in.

There is also a FAA General Counsel opinion that if the flight involves training from an instructor, neither need to be night current as neither are a passenger of the other.

Correct John, in regards to acting PIC when solo. I could have been more explicit in my response. I was answering in the context he provided. I understand the differences of night vs passenger carrying currency. My point was that it appeared that he perhaps believed that he could act as PIC as long as someone who was current made the landings/takeoff.

 

[jaymark6655]

He can fly the whole trip and do the take offs and landings, he just can't be the PIC. The current pilot has to be the PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Correct John, in regards to acting PIC when solo. I could have been more explicit in my response. I was answering in the context he provided. I understand the differences of night vs passenger carrying currency. My point was that it appeared that he perhaps believed that he could act as PIC as long as someone who was current made the landings/takeoff.

...when it is exactly the opposite.