Family Cross Country - Car Seats in PLane?

[Talan2000]

All,

I have two kids - 2 and 4 who have as yet never flown with me. (4yr old 39in/40lbs has flown commercial about 4 times). Test flight this week locally.

I'm planning a five hr flight this March (Spring Break) from Addison, TX to Las Cruzes, NM (KADS- KELW) in March in a 2000 Piper Arrow 201R which is part of my flying club. Or possibly, though not likely, in the clubs 1967 Cherokee 180.

So, can folks share, practical tips on small kids and cross country. Online resources?

1. Do you use the car seats in the plane? (This Arrow has full shoulder harness). Seating config -- I think optimal -- would be mom in back with 2 yr old in carseat. 4 year old in copilot seat in his carseat (this is the one I debate on carseat or not)

2. Is a Portajohn realistic to use to avoid the dreaded but inevitable "Daddy I 've got to pee (or worse -- pooop)? -- best options/models for portajohn?

3. I could plan a two hr point pitstop but there's no guarantee 8 minutes later I wouldn't get the dreaded" I've gotta pee" line.

Anyway - any words of advice for the first time family flier?

Thanks

Todd




3.

 

[Jaybird180]

I did car seats. Boosters may be more suitable. Test fit the child in the seat with headsets; sometimes the side bolsters can interfere with the headset or the child's vision.

During stops, take your time and try to make the stop part of the fun. Plan something.

I don't think I've ever encountered a bathroom need in-flight. But also we didn't load up on drinks before boarding either.

 

[ahkahn]

All,

I have two kids - 2 and 4 who have as yet never flown with me. (4yr old 39in/40lbs has flown commercial about 4 times). Test flight this week locally.

I'm planning a five hr flight this March (Spring Break) from Addison, TX to Las Cruzes, NM (KADS- KELW) in March in a 2000 Piper Arrow 201R which is part of my flying club. Or possibly, though not likely, in the clubs 1967 Cherokee 180.

So, can folks share, practical tips on small kids and cross country. Online resources?

1. Do you use the car seats in the plane? (This Arrow has full shoulder harness). Seating config -- I think optimal -- would be mom in back with 2 yr old in carseat. 4 year old in copilot seat in his carseat (this is the one I debate on carseat or not)

Yes, we do. We bring the car seat into the plane. We have a 3 year old and a 9 year old. If they use a car seat in the car we bring it into the plane.

2. Is a Portajohn realistic to use to avoid the dreaded but inevitable "Daddy I 've got to pee (or worse -- pooop)? -- best options/models for portajohn?

We actually discovered that diapers work better. Just **** into the diaper and wrap it up to discard. Works better. Golden rule of flying: ALWAYS pee before you go!

3. I could plan a two hr point pitstop but there's no guarantee 8 minutes later I wouldn't get the dreaded" I've gotta pee" line.

Remember the golden rule!!! We also don't drink about 30 minutes before the flight. If we do, we don't leave until everyone drains the bladder. We had one diaper emergency one time with the older one and after that she is sure to go before we take off. lol...

 

[MAKG1]

Car seats in front may cause yoke interference. On some airplanes, there may also be access problems with flaps or trim wheels (e.g., Piper PA28s with Johnson bars). And emergency egress may be a very serious issue on an airplane with only one door on the passenger side.

Boosters are not technically legal on aircraft, but the reasons don't really work anymore. The "boosters" that got tested and banned don't look like the modern ones at all, and the sticking point was an interference between a tray attached to the booster and an airline seat in a crash. I personally haven't seen a booster with a permanent tray in at least 15 years.

They also don't give you any safety benefit over a lap belt.

Actual car seats with integrated belts are a different story. Those are legal on airplanes if they have a DOT sticker that says they are legal on airplanes. Many do. Once again, the certification is intended for airline seats and may not apply to a small aircraft. Make sure the seat fits. Having its base hang over the edge of a seat is NOT safe, and will cause it to fail.

Everyone who gets in a plane with me as PIC gets told to wee before leaving. I've only had one "I gotta pee" while airborne. Of course it occurred at TOD while approaching the destination, so it didn't really change anything. I hesitate to plan legs longer than about 90 minutes with kids. They need to get out and run around. 45 minutes for smaller kids.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I have flown fairly extensively with my daughters (currently 8 and 5). We have been taking trips with the kids since they were each around 1. When they were younger, we used the full car seats. Two advantages of the full car seat - first, it is safer for them. Second, if you are travelling somewhere, you'll need the seat in the rental car when you get to your destination. Having them sit in the seat minimizes loss of baggage space.

As they have gotten old enough/big enough for booster seats, we have them sit in the normal airplane seat and toss the booster seats in with the luggage.

My 8 year old is now able to legally travel in a car without a booster seat in most states so we only need to carry a booster for the 5 year old when we travel. It has been nice not to have to lug the full size car seat in and out of the Baron.

As for potty breaks, generally speaking, if the flight is going to be IFR and much longer than 2 hrs, I'll plan a bathroom stop. That avoids having to 'divert' when you are IFR (been there, done that). I also carry gallon size ziplock bags and spare wipes which have come in handy for the times when the schedule was tight.

Now that we are stepping up to the Beech 18, we have a potty onboard which will enable longer legs.

 

[JasonM]

I fly with my kids all the time and bring their car seats in the airplane just like the car. I also purchased the "TravelJohn" Absorbent bags and had them learn how to use them. They work great.

 

[EminiTrader]

I bring our car seat for the plane - and then we have it for the rental car or crew car. Never had a porta potty and sometimes I wish I did... we just make the kids P just before we load them up and we plan on stopping about 2.5 - 3 hours down the road...

 

[petrolero]

All,

I have two kids - 2 and 4 who have as yet never flown with me. (4yr old 39in/40lbs has flown commercial about 4 times). Test flight this week locally.

I'm planning a five hr flight this March (Spring Break) from Addison, TX to Las Cruzes, NM (KADS- KELW) in March in a 2000 Piper Arrow 201R which is part of my flying club. Or possibly, though not likely, in the clubs 1967 Cherokee 180.

So, can folks share, practical tips on small kids and cross country. Online resources?

1. Do you use the car seats in the plane? (This Arrow has full shoulder harness). Seating config -- I think optimal -- would be mom in back with 2 yr old in carseat. 4 year old in copilot seat in his carseat (this is the one I debate on carseat or not)

Yes, we have used car seats and boosters in our plane with our kids from ages 4 to 6 or 7, mostly because we needed them for use in cars on the other end. My plane has lap belts in the rear seats. Boosters are designed to help kids sit higher so that shoulder harnesses actually go across their shoulders as opposed to their necks. My plane has lap belts so the boosters don't do much but they do keep the lap belt in the right place and keep it from 'riding up' onto their abdomen. And since the kids are sitting on them I don't have to waste valuable space in the baggage area.

The boosters work fairly well in the front in a Cessna 182 with the seat pushed to its aft stop. Any closer and there is yoke interference with the kid's knees IIRC. Always check for yoke clearance with any setup, but that's on all our checklists anyway.

I don't know about carseats in the copilot seat of a Piper, however. I'd suspect there will be problems with ingress/egress and possibly door interference.

I wouldn't sweat the legality thing. First, you're PIC and, second, virtually all car seats and boosters have the infamous "sticker" with the famous red lettering approving them for airline use, and third, what choice do you have anyway?

2. Is a Portajohn realistic to use to avoid the dreaded but inevitable "Daddy I 've got to pee (or worse -- pooop)? -- best options/models for portajohn?

3. I could plan a two hr point pitstop but there's no guarantee 8 minutes later I wouldn't get the dreaded" I've gotta pee" line.

Anyway - any words of advice for the first time family flier?

Thanks

Todd

We use, and I highly recommend, Travel Johns - disposable gel urinals. I buy them by the 18-pack and I always have at least 3 in my flight bag. They hold 28+ oz of liquid (kids with small bladders can actually use one twice) and, once gelled after 30 seconds, they do not spill a drop.

They come with travel-size tissue packs and wipes if you get the right pack. They have a unisex opening. I have boys and they have never had trouble with them. Girls might just need to practice on the ground once or twice I think. Very young kids who aren't potty trained should probably just wear diapers.

The nice thing is that once they gel up, I just put them into the trash bag along with the rest of our trash and discard the whole bag of trash at the destination. No transporting, emptying or cleaning a bulky red spillable **** bucket.

 

[Ted]

Our kids (3 and twin 1 year olds) get car seats while flying, and we use diapers. They handle GA flying very well.

 

[Omalley1537]

Car seats in front may cause yoke interference. On some airplanes, there may also be access problems with flaps or trim wheels (e.g., Piper PA28s with Johnson bars). And emergency egress may be a very serious issue on an airplane with only one door on the passenger side.

Boosters are not technically legal on aircraft, but the reasons don't really work anymore. The "boosters" that got tested and banned don't look like the modern ones at all, and the sticking point was an interference between a tray attached to the booster and an airline seat in a crash. I personally haven't seen a booster with a permanent tray in at least 15 years.

They also don't give you any safety benefit over a lap belt.

Actual car seats with integrated belts are a different story. Those are legal on airplanes if they have a DOT sticker that says they are legal on airplanes. Many do. Once again, the certification is intended for airline seats and may not apply to a small aircraft. Make sure the seat fits. Having its base hang over the edge of a seat is NOT safe, and will cause it to fail.

Everyone who gets in a plane with me as PIC gets told to wee before leaving. I've only had one "I gotta pee" while airborne. Of course it occurred at TOD while approaching the destination, so it didn't really change anything. I hesitate to plan legs longer than about 90 minutes with kids. They need to get out and run around. 45 minutes for smaller kids.

I agree other than the "no safety benefit over a lap belt." Children do not have the "notch" that adults do in their pelvis that serves to keep a belt from riding up into the soft torso area. This can cause internal injuries due to the belt load being carried by the abdomen as opposed to the pelvis. These develop later in childhood.

I do agree that you don't get the benefits of a full child seat with a booster (if that's what you meant) with regard to the booster not having its own harness.

 

[Talan2000]

All,

Thanks for the feedback.

FYI Las Cruces is KLRU not sure why I typed KELW. Anyway..I think I may have been too aggressive thinking I could make the 4.5-5.0hr flight without stopping.

The Arrow has some huge tanks and stopping to pee probably adds $100 to the flight...My daughter will be no problem in diapers. It's my son's bladder control that's the issue - perhaps it's as simple as super pullups or these gel packs...or as simple as stopping at some desolate airport in West Texas

Thanks for the tip on the chemical john / gel packs-- I too dreaded the red bucket of horror and was actually leaning toward the proverbial gatorade bottle!

As to the safety issue - yes emergency egress is absolutely compromised with any car seat. Whether the are in back or in front, it's one of my worst case scenarios to envision, but to my mind they have to survive the crash FIRST

And so I'd take a carseat even if it does get in ones way during an evac of an ARROW. Fire on the ground is the next worst scenario, but it is so rare in GA, one probably shouldn't fly if one demands a 100% solution to every risk...that said I will look long and hard at putting the kids in the rear instead of splitting them up -- that reduces the door blockage.

I will do a dry run with my son's new carseat -- it has these "Click Tight" connector that uses the shoulder and lap belt to secure the seat and it's three point restraint to keep the kid secure. If necessary, I could put both kids in carseats in the rear seats, but I figured having one parent free (ish) to deal with any issues per kid would be a better seating configuration.

To those who have flown with kids -- did you put them both in the back or split them 1 in front, one in rear?

Thanks again!

Todd

 

[rbridges]

I guess I'm getting old. Children car seats didn't cross my mind from the title. I thought some guy wanted to put his car seats in a plane.

 

[MAKG1]

Egress problems are not a bad/good thing.

If the carseat is in the way, NO ONE gets out and you all die.

If it's in the back seat, you may evacuate everyone, or may not. You can just leave the seat behind and pop the kid out. One adult can get on the wing while the other pushes kids out. But you can do NOTHING if you're stuck in the front seat 'cause the damn carseat is in the way.

DO NOT put a carseat in front in an Arrow. Bad juju.

 

[N747JB]

You will have to put them both in the back, I don't see a car seat not interfering with the controls. When my kids were young, we had a six seat airplane, so my wife always road in the back with them until the oldest was old enough to sit up front without a car seat. Remember, gentle climbs and decents, make sure they have something to suck or chew on, bottles, gum anything to help with the ears. They will likely sleep from about 10 minutes after take off until you land.

 

[Talan2000]

ok, thanks for the voices of experience. I've never mixed aviation and toddlers so I'm crawling before walking, as it were.

It seems definitive that the carseats are going into the back -- as they do in the car (!).

I would love to make it all the way without stopping (I guess that's the Dad's fantasy), but I think it would also be wise to plan for a rest break at the halfway mark. KINK seems to fit the bill.

Anybody make this trip and have any other ideas of a nicer rest stop enroute? It's pretty bleak out there!

Todd

 

[Paul Hamilton]

Ah, child seats. We had three of them -- one in each car and one in the airplane. My daughter started flying with us at age six months. We used a seat that was FAA approved and converted from rearward-facing to forward-facing when she got older. Eventually, she graduated to an aviation seat cushion. At maybe age 9, she moved to the right front seat so she could fly. She is now 17, which means she has flown between a thousand and two thousand hours with us. Child seats go in the back, whether in a car or an airplane.

Good headsets are really important. Get a pair that will fit a child well. It is desirable to be able to plug a music source into them. We started out with a pair of child-size hearing protectors from a gun store, and she graduated to real headsets after a few years.

Really important stuff -- favorite books, toys, and music. One of our friends gave us a drawing board, which was the single best thing. Almost all of our trips are IFR, so no pit stops. This worked out quite well. I think wrestling a Portajohn would be unrealistic in an airplane full of kids and baggage.

 

[dans2992]

We used this for a porta-pottie.

http://m.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3132746

My daughter can use it on the floor in the backseat. My wife even used it (once) when she really (really) had to go. It works for kids "#2" jobs as well. Tie off the bag and get rid of it at the next stop (or jettison overboard if you just can't take it...

You can buy that powder that gels things up as well, and add to the potty before they go.

For myself, I use the previously mentioned porta-john packets with the gel stuff. Works great and easy to deal with once gelled.

 

[Lindberg]

Boosters are not technically legal on aircraft, but the reasons don't really work anymore. The "boosters" that got tested and banned don't look like the modern ones at all, and the sticking point was an interference between a tray attached to the booster and an airline seat in a crash. I personally haven't seen a booster with a permanent tray in at least 15 years.

Boosters are fine under Part 91. Not allowed under Part 121.

They also don't give you any safety benefit over a lap belt.

The benefits are 1) increased visibility and 2) proper positioning of the shoulder harness.

 

[red4golf]

We use regular car seats in both a C172 and the Arrow. The kids act exactly like they do in the car and bathroom / diaper / feeding time all match refuel stops.

Put them in back unless you want either the seat hitting the yoke or bored feet kicking it.

 

[jaymark6655]

How do you put car seats in a C172? The one I fly has shoulder belts in the back and the belt does not lock for car seat installation like a car does.

 

[MAKG1]

Boosters are fine under Part 91. Not allowed under Part 121.

The benefits are 1) increased visibility and 2) proper positioning of the shoulder harness.

14 CFR 91.107(a)(3) is part 91. Boosters must be "approved." None of them are.

A lap belt is not a shoulder harness.

Visibility is generally not a problem for booster-aged children.

 

[FastEddieB]

I listen to the Freakonomics podcast.

There was a recent episode on how belts won out over suspenders.

http://freakonomics.com/2015/09/24/how-did-the-belt-win-a-new-freakonomics-radio-episode/

It ended on a somewhat unrelated note, that being that there is no good evidence that a child in a booster or child seat is any safer statistically than a child properly belted in. The benefits are allegedly offset by the child sitting higher in the vehicle, where risks of injury are higher.

Not saying that's true. Just that sometimes things that seem obvious are somewhat less so when examined closely.

 

[Jaybird180]

To those who have flown with kids -- did you put them both in the back or split them 1 in front, one in rear?

Thanks again!

Todd

I've done it both ways. Once with both in back and once with 1 child up front.

 

[Unit74]

I fly with my kids all the time and bring their car seats in the airplane just like the car. I also purchased the "TravelJohn" Absorbent bags and had them learn how to use them. They work great.

Those are great! Same one can be used for multiple pees too. A stash of Gatoraid bottles is a big life saver too.

 

[asicer]

How do you put car seats in a C172? The one I fly has shoulder belts in the back and the belt does not lock for car seat installation like a car does.

What flavor of C172? In the C172SP, or at least the one I flew, you pull the belt all the way out and then let it back in.

 

[Lindberg]

14 CFR 91.107(a)(3) is part 91. Boosters must be "approved." None of them are.

When using a booster, the child is using the built-in and approved seat and safety belt. That's in contrast to child seats, where the seat is fastened to the vehicle, and the child is fastened to the seat using integrated restraints. There's no prohibition on booster seats in Part 91. Please compare the current version of 91.107 with 121.311, which includes the following:

Except as provided in§ 121.311(b)(2)(ii)(C)(3) and § 121.311(b)(2)(ii)(C)(4), no certificate holder may permit a child, in an aircraft, to occupy a booster-type child restraint system, a vest-type child restraint system, a harness-type child restraint system, or a lap held child restraint system during take off, landing, and movement on the surface.

FAA AC confirms that booster seats are only prohibited during takeoff, landing, and surface movement. And that prohibition only exists in Part 121.

A lap belt is not a shoulder harness.

No one said it is. Nevertheless, the safety purpose of booster seats is to properly position the lap and shoulder belt.

Visibility is generally not a problem for booster-aged children.

Holy generalities, Batman! "Booster-aged children" may be anywhere from 4-8 years old. And my booster-aged children get much more visibility sitting in a booster seat. Different kids and different planes are different.

 

[asicer]

When using a booster, the child is using the built-in and approved seat and safety belt. That's in contrast to child seats, where the seat is fastened to the vehicle, and the child is fastened to the seat using integrated restraints. There's no prohibition on booster seats in Part 91.

Untrue.

91.107(a)(3)(iv)(4) says:

Except as provided in §91.107(a)(3)(iii)(B)(3)(iii) and §91.107(a)(3)(iii)(B)(3)(iv), booster-type child restraint systems (as defined in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 213 (49 CFR 571.213)), vest- and harness-type child restraint systems, and lap held child restraints are not approved for use in aircraft

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 213 (49 CFR 571.213) says:

Booster seat means either a backless child restraint system or a belt-positioning seat.

Belt-positioning seat means a child restraint system that positions a child on a vehicle seat to improve the fit of a vehicle Type II belt system on the child and that lacks any component, such as a belt system or a structural element, designed to restrain forward movement of the child's torso in a forward impact.

Child restraint system means any device, except Type I or Type II seat belts, designed for use in a motor vehicle or aircraft to restrain, seat, or position children who weigh 30 kilograms (kg) or less

 

[jaymark6655]

What flavor of C172? In the C172SP, or at least the one I flew, you pull the belt all the way out and then let it back in.

Yes, it is an SP. When I tried pulling the belt all the way out and letting it back in; it didn't lock, which is what my car does. Guess there maybe something wrong with the belt.

 

[Lindberg]

Untrue.

Which part? If you mean it is untrue that there is no prohibition on booster seats in Part 91, please show me the prohibition. Otherwise, part 91.107 requires that "each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft . . . must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him . . . ." When I put my son in his booster in the front seat of the Cub, and fasten the lap belt, he is occupying an approved seat with a safety belt secured around him.

Nulla poena sine lege, and 91.107 lacks the prohibition that is present in 121.311. I agree that a booster seat cannot substitute for an approved seat like an approved child seat can under either part 91 or part 121. But they are not prohibited in part 91, thus they can be used in addition to the approved aircraft seat and belt(s).

 

[petrolero]

We can squabble about whether a booster is "approved" vs "prohibited", 91 vs 121, etc. IDGAF. That wouldn't be the only area in which the FARs prevent safety improvements. But I have to take them for use in cars anyway and the boffins say that a booster improves safety in cars and also in airplanes so I use them with my kids. End of story. They can prosecute me if they wish.

Is there no case law on this subject for us to mince?

 

[dans2992]

Yep... Legally, your 18 month old can sit in your lap, unbelted.

I'm sure that's safe...