Factory reman. vs MOH

[N6399A]

What is the difference on certified aircraft? I always assumed that factory re manufacture on a Cessna meant it went back to Cessna and that a major overhaul was done at a cert. engine shop. Just had a guy ask me if my Lycon preformed overhaul was a factory re-man.

 

[poadeleted20]

First, the term "factory remanufactured" was never used by anyone except Lycoming -- never an official FAA term or one used by Continental. Lycoming used to use that term to describe engines rebuilt at the factory, but stopped using it some year ago due to confusion over its meaning. To my knowledge, Lycon (an engine shop not part of Lycoming Engines) has never used the term. Also, the airframe manufacturers have never done engine work. They buy their engines from the engine manufacturers, and do not touch the engines after installing them on their airframes.

Second, as regards the terms "rebuilt" and "overhauled," here are the definitions the FAA applies:

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless—
(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under §21.305 of this chapter.
(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

As for the difference between a rebuild and an overhaul done by the Lycoming factory, see http://www.lycoming.com/engines/service/zero-time-rebuilt-engines.html and http://www.lycoming.com/engines/service/factory-overhauled-engines.html.

 

[gismo]

What is the difference on certified aircraft? I always assumed that factory re manufacture on a Cessna meant it went back to Cessna and that a major overhaul was done at a cert. engine shop. Just had a guy ask me if my Lycon preformed overhaul was a factory re-man.

Technically, a factory remanufacture of an engine can be done by any shop that the factory authorizes but AFaIK neither Lycoming nor Continental has ever authorized any other shop. Also FWIW, Lycoming doesn't call their offering a reman, they call it a "rebuilt" engine although most of us use those terms interchangeably.

And the difference between a Continental Reman or Lycoming Rebuild and a field overhaul done elsewhere is that the former puts the engine hours back to zero, just like a new engine and a field overhaul leaves the total accumulated hours in service intact while tacking on a "Time Since Major Overhaul" counter which starts at zero. Either way, the aircraft manufacturer (e.g. Cessna) isn't involved at all. The engine mfg. does specify what must be done in terms of new replacement parts, machining, adjustments, and the minimum dimension of many reused wearable components (like cylinders, crankshafts, camshafts, etc). Also a field overhaul can be done to "service limits" which means that the reusable parts need only be "good enough" to continue to operate adequately, or it can be done to "new limits" which means the dimensions must be within the tolerance for new parts that go into new engines. A "service limits" overhaul is rarely done, the exception being an unscrupulous seller who just wants to make the engine appear to be fresh while spending as little money as possible. Finally, a field overhaul can be performed by a one-man "shade tree" mechanic, the repair shop of a large FBO, or an "engine botique" (well known engine overhauler). Examples of the latter are Mattituck, Penn Yan, G&N, ZephyrEngines, Powermasters, RAM, and many more I can't think of right now. For many owners and perspective buyers, a botique overhaul has more value than a factory Reman because the botique shops usually go beyond what the factory requires in terms of balance and fitting, but there are still plenty of folks that believe a Reman adds more value.

 

[wby0nder]

I'm pretty new to the powered side of aviation but I believe that
service limit overhauls and worse are OFTEN done. I've looked at a lot of engines and log books on small singles in the last few years, both certified and exp. I've come to the conclusion that logbooks and paperwork are unreliable at best and unless you know the engine builder or did it yourself you might as well assume it's garbage.

 

[gismo]

I'm pretty new to the powered side of aviation but I believe that
service limit overhauls and worse are OFTEN done. I've looked at a lot of engines and log books on small singles in the last few years, both certified and exp. I've come to the conclusion that logbooks and paperwork are unreliable at best and unless you know the engine builder or did it yourself you might as well assume it's garbage.

I don't know of anyone who's had a service limits overhaul done on their own airplane and like I said the only situation I've ever heard of where this was done is when a plane needed to be made sellable at a minimum cost. Also AFaIK, the type of OH (new vs service limits) has to be spelled out in the engine logs legally.

 

[poadeleted20]

IIRC, the Lycoming Overhaul Manual (which must be followed to overhaul a Lycoming engine unless you have your own set of FAA-approved overhaul instructions) requires overhaul to "overhaul" limits, which are tighter than "service limits." Service limits are set to tell you when the item must be removed from service and either repaired or discarded. Thus, I don't think you can "overhaul" a Lycoming engine to only "service limits."

 

[gismo]

IIRC, the Lycoming Overhaul Manual (which must be followed to overhaul a Lycoming engine unless you have your own set of FAA-approved overhaul instructions) requires overhaul to "overhaul" limits, which are tighter than "service limits." Service limits are set to tell you when the item must be removed from service and either repaired or discarded. Thus, I don't think you can "overhaul" a Lycoming engine to only "service limits."

In the Continental OH manual I just examined, the "Serviceable limits" apply to reused parts in an overhaul. There are no separate "overhaul limits".

 

[wby0nder]

[quote Also AFaIK, the type of OH (new vs service limits) has to be spelled out in the engine logs legally.[/quote]

Yup, but that doesn't mean people don't cut corners, lose track, delude themselves, and flat out lie, even I.A. and A&Ps.

I don't mean to say they are all a bunch of crooks. Many are completely dedicated and trustworthy. You just can't tell by looking at them anymore than you can tell what kind of overhaul was done just by looking at the engine (or the paperwork). "Buyer beware" is really important in aviation.

 

[Tom-D]

There is no such thing as an "Overhaul Limit" no such term exists.

The rest of you folks have the wrong idea what a service limit is.

If you had an engine that was new 1900 hours ago, and was torn down and the crank was .0001" (that's 1 ten thousands) under new spec, would you spend 5k or more to geta new crank just to have a "New Limits over haul?

Or would you fit with new new bearings and wait for the next TBO to re-grind .002 under and fit with .002 under bearings.?

Why would you want to mis the 2200 hours the crank that the .002" would give for nothing.?

"Service limit" is the maximum under size the the FACTORY engineers believe will go to the next TBO with out problems.

 

[Tom-D]

Design size is 2.00" the tolerance for manufacture is + or - .001" the new limit can be 1.999 to 2.001" the service limit could be 1.995 Do the math, if 1900 hours wore the crank to measure 1.998" would you use it again? knowing it will get cut .002" at the machine shop? and add as much as 5k to replace?

Service limits have a place in the engine building.

 

[RotorAndWing]

"Buyer beware" is really important in aviation.

And in boats, cars, trucks, motorcycles, RV's, homes, etc..........

 

[Dan Thomas]

We buy Lycoming Factory Overhauls and have had really good service from them at a good price. They don't mess around with trying to save marginal parts; it's not worth their time. They just grab new stuff. Often the only original part is the crankcase, and some of the "Factory Overhauls" we've had are brand-new first-run engines, since the cores don't always come back and they're forced to use new stuff.

There are two different engines they sell, other than new. They sell Factory Overhauled engines, which are built to within service limits. The total time is tracked on such engines, and when we get one it will have a total time on the tag. That's from the time it left the factory when it was brand new. And that engine will still have brand-new cylinders and pistons, probably the camshaft, new lifters, new mags, new starter, along with all the other normally-replaced bits. Can't go too far wrong with that.

They also sell, for more money, Factory Rebuilt engines, which are built to new tolerances and are considered Zero-timed. That crankcase might have 10,000 hours on it but when it's "rebuilt" it goes to zero.

Dan

 

[Ted]

Ron got it pretty much on the nose. Your plane may have been manufactured by Cessna, the engine wasn't. This is a big difference between aviation and automotive, where in the automotive industry most of the time the vehicle maker also produced the engine (my Ford truck has a Ford engine). There are a few notable exceptions, mostly with diesel engines, such as the Dodge Ram trucks with the Cummins turbo diesels, and a number of little European cars have Peugeot and Fiat diesel engines, despite having names ranging from as far north as Saab to as far south as Alfa Romeo.

Check your aircraft logs, but if it was done by an independent shop, it's an overhaul rather than rebuilt. Lycoming offers both rebuilt and overhauled engines, for which differences exist but are fairly minor. I don't have any insight into what Continental offers for their engines, having never dealt with them. Not necessarily anything wrong with either type, it all depends on who does the work and what kind of job they did.

One minor correction, though. I've seen one aircraft manufacturer that, at one point in time, experimented with a few engine designs of their own (no insight into other manufacturers). Those projects (at least the ones that I've seen) were long ago scrapped, but my understanding was that they were attempting to find a solution that was cheaper than what the traditional engine manufacturers offered with equal or better efficiency. I have no insight as to why the programs were terminated.

 

[poadeleted20]

Check your aircraft logs, but if it was done by an independent shop, it's an overhaul rather than rebuilt.

Any engine shop can do a rebuild to 43.2(b) standards and sign it off as "rebuilt" rather than "overhauled," but only the Lycoming factory ever called that a "factory remanufactured" engine. OTOH, I don't believe anyone but the factory can "zero-time" the rebuilt engine as Lycoming does with their rebuilds, but I'm not sure of that.

 

[Ted]

Any engine shop can do a rebuild to 43.2(b) standards and sign it off as "rebuilt" rather than "overhauled," but only the Lycoming factor ever called that a "factory remanufactured" engine. OTOH, I don't believe anyone but the factory can "zero-time" the rebuilt engine as Lycoming does with their rebuids, but I'm not sure of that.

Sorry, that 0-time distinction is what I was going to. To my knowledge, the manufacturer is the only one who can do that, as well (but that's not my area of knowledge).

 

[wby0nder]

So, what is my engine?

It's a Continental A75 that "I" rebuilt under the supervision of 2 I.A.s and one A&P. The case was yellow tagged by Central Cylinder in Omaha. It was align-bored and crack checked and machined for new .002 under bearings. I got a yellow tagged reground crankshaft to go with it. Cam, gears, lifters, oil pump were all either new or new limits. Cylinders and pistons were yellow tagged (new limits) at Bolduk in Minneapolis.

Is this a new limits overhaul, a rebuilt engine, zero timed owner re-manufactured or what?

 

[poadeleted20]

So, what is my engine?

It's a Continental A75 that "I" rebuilt under the supervision of 2 I.A.s and one A&P. The case was yellow tagged by Central Cylinder in Omaha. It was align-bored and crack checked and machined for new .002 under bearings. I got a yellow tagged reground crankshaft to go with it. Cam, gears, lifters, oil pump were all either new or new limits. Cylinders and pistons were yellow tagged (new limits) at Bolduk in Minneapolis.

Is this a new limits overhaul, a rebuilt engine, zero timed owner re-manufactured or what?

What's it say in the log entry for the work signed by one of those three folks?

 

[wby0nder]

What's it say in the log entry for the work signed by one of those three folks?

I'll check but I'm getting the impression from this thread that the commonly used terms might not actually be correct.

In this "case", the case was built by the A&P who builds more engines than anyone around here every year for decades and has a great reputation. His supervising IA signed that off. A different IA finished the build with me watching and assisting after the first guy got sick and ended up in hospital for weeks. These guys all know and respect each other and instead of getting something built by committee I feel I get better than usual cross-checking and back stopping. Basically, I wanted the best I could get and at 100 ours it's performing flawlessly.

Whatever it says in my logs is one thing. I want to know what folks here would call it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'll check but I'm getting the impression from this thread that the commonly used terms might not actually be correct.

In this "case", the case was built by the A&P who builds more engines than anyone around here every year for decades and has a great reputation. His supervising IA signed that off. A different IA finished the build with me watching and assisting after the first guy got sick and ended up in hospital for weeks. These guys all know and respect each other and instead of getting something built by committee I feel I get better than usual cross-checking and back stopping. Basically, I wanted the best I could get and at 100 ours it's performing flawlessly.

FWIW, anyone with a "P" (powerplant) rating can overhaul an aircraft engine. The only time an IA is required is the following:
Appendix A to Part 43—Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance

2) Powerplant major repairs. Repairs of the following parts of an engine and repairs of the following types, are powerplant major repairs:
(i) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a reciprocating engine equipped with an integral supercharger.
(ii) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a reciprocating engine equipped with other than spur-type propeller reduction gearing.

Whatever it says in my logs is one thing. I want to know what folks here would call it.

43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless—
(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under §21.305 of this chapter.
(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

 

[Tom-D]

Any Properly rated person can do a rebuild to 43.2(b) standards and sign it off as "rebuilt" rather than "overhauled," but only the Lycoming factory ever called that a "factory remanufactured" engine. OTOH, I don't believe anyone but the factory can "zero-time" the rebuilt engine as Lycoming does with their rebuilds, but I'm not sure of that.

Fixed that for ya,

Your post is correct,(other than that) and you can be assured that no one except the manufacturer, or its authorized representative is allowed to Zero the Total Time on a serial number no matter what component we are talking about.

There is only one example of an AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE that I know of, and that is between Continental and R/R.

 

[Tom-D]

Next Question:

who can Zero the TT on a life limited part?

A the manufacturer
B the owner
C An A&P-IA
D None of the above

 

[alaskaflyer]

What is the difference on certified aircraft? I always assumed that factory re manufacture on a Cessna meant it went back to Cessna and that a major overhaul was done at a cert. engine shop. Just had a guy ask me if my Lycon preformed overhaul was a factory re-man.

I'm guessing someone thought Lycon meant "Lycoming" thus the confusion. I had to look at it twice myself

 

[stingray]

I'll check but I'm getting the impression from this thread that the commonly used terms might not actually be correct.

In this "case", the case was built by the A&P who builds more engines than anyone around here every year for decades and has a great reputation. His supervising IA signed that off. A different IA finished the build with me watching and assisting after the first guy got sick and ended up in hospital for weeks. These guys all know and respect each other and instead of getting something built by committee I feel I get better than usual cross-checking and back stopping. Basically, I wanted the best I could get and at 100 ours it's performing flawlessly.

Whatever it says in my logs is one thing. I want to know what folks here would call it.

Michael,

If they/you followed the instructions in the manual for an OH you have an OH engine with TT xxx 0 SMOH. If they/you did not follow the instructions for an OH you have a repaired engine with TT xxx and xxx SMOH.

Someone else mentioned you do not know what is really being done to an engine by the log books most of the time. That is why it is a good idea to log everything that was done item by item and document the work with receipts. This is for you as a seller. As a buyer if you see that it was OH by say one of the major shops that have a good rep you should be assured that a good job was done. Keep in mind the best hours on an engine are between 500 SMOH and 1500 or so.

On my Tcraft I have an entry "magnafluxed a lot of parts" Total cost of parts $75.00 labor $75.00. That was back in 53 or so. 0 SMOH.:smile:

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

Michael,

If they/you followed the instructions in the manual for an OH you have an OH engine with TT xxx 0 SMOH. If they/you did not follow the instructions for an OH you have a repaired engine with TT xxx and xxx SMOH.

Dan

Read
43.2 And 43.13 (a)

If those are not followed you have an un-airworthy engine.

 

[Doggtyred]

Read
43.2 And 43.13 (a)

If those are not followed you have an un-airworthy engine.

Only with regards to use in a certified airframe. If the airframe is an experimental, all bets are off, and the maker/rebuilder of the engine has the say. Important distinction to make, when people presume its a factory plane with a standard airworthiness cert, and not every post here may be made in reference to that presumption.

 

[Tom-D]

Only with regards to use in a certified airframe. If the airframe is an experimental, all bets are off, and the maker/rebuilder of the engine has the say. Important distinction to make, when people presume its a factory plane with a standard airworthiness cert, and not every post here may be made in reference to that presumption.

What happens to the value of the certified engine when maintained as a home built.

 

[poadeleted20]

Only with regards to use in a certified airframe. If the airframe is an experimental, all bets are off, and the maker/rebuilder of the engine has the say. Important distinction to make, when people presume its a factory plane with a standard airworthiness cert, and not every post here may be made in reference to that presumption.

It's the engine we're talking about, and this entry goes in the engine log. Unless we're talking about a non-certified engine, I see no exception in 43.2 which allows persons to describe an engine as "overhauled" or "rebuilt" unless it complies with 43.2, regardless of the sort of aircraft in which it is later installed.

 

[Tom-D]

It's the engine we're talking about, and this entry goes in the engine log. Unless we're talking about a non-certified engine, I see no exception in 43.2 which allows persons to describe an engine as "overhauled" or "rebuilt" unless it complies with 43.2, regardless of the sort of aircraft in which it is later installed.

Far 43 does not apply to home Builts, unless it is a requirement of the letter of limitations. Such as the inspection requirements for the conditional inspection AS in 43,D

 

[poadeleted20]

Far 43 does not apply to home Builts, unless it is a requirement of the letter of limitations. Such as the inspection requirements for the conditional inspection AS in 43,D

I agree -- if it's a homebuilt engine, 43.2 does not apply. But if it's a certificated engine, you can't write "overhauled" or "rebuilt" in the engine log unless it has been overhauled or rebuilt in accordance with 43.2.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Y'all are way past me. Heck, it's all I can do to stay proficient flying the darned plane!
My 2 cents is if one gets a factory new or rebuilt engine; it's a known commodity if they later need to sell the plane. Boutique shops may do wonderful work, but if the buyer doesn't know them or they are no longer in business, it doesn't help. (I am about to have two rebuilt by a boutique shop; so, I must be planning on keeping the plane awhile <g>)

Best,

Dave

 

[Doggtyred]

It's the engine we're talking about, and this entry goes in the engine log. Unless we're talking about a non-certified engine, I see no exception in 43.2 which allows persons to describe an engine as "overhauled" or "rebuilt" unless it complies with 43.2, regardless of the sort of aircraft in which it is later installed.

To respond to the earlier poster, there's not much loss of value as the engine is still very sellable to other homebuilders. The engine is no longer airworthy in a certified airplane until a qualified maintainer validates that the engine meets the standards spelled out for certified engines by the manufacturer and the FAA. The majority of the engine's value is the cost of the parts.. they don't discount jugs just because they are going in a homebuilt.

That doesn't mean an engine that was owner maintained in an experimental now needs 10 annuals done on it to catch up. It means a qualified maintainer can attest all AD's are complied with and crack the case and measure everything to ensure it meets overhauled or new tolerances.

Airworthiness (from a legal standpoint) is, and always has been, a paperwork exercise.

As someone who has one foot in the experimental (and owner assembled engine) community and one foot in the "certified" community I can assure you that a lycoming or continental or franklin can be legally used in a homebuilt while no longer being legally "airworthy" from a certified airplane standpoint.

 

[Tom-D]

I agree -- if it's a homebuilt engine, 43.2 does not apply. But if it's a certificated engine, you can't write "overhauled" or "rebuilt" in the engine log unless it has been overhauled or rebuilt in accordance with 43.2.

When the engine is installed in the EXP aircraft it is considered a system, and can be maintained by any one, and inspected as part of the aircraft during the yearly conditional inspection.

During overhaul, it is not installed. (its a stand alone component) If it has been treated as an EXP engine during maintenance, the logs are of no consequence. the engine will be treated as if it were modified with out proper paper work and returned to service by an unauthorized person.

IOWs It's junk.

 

[kevin47881]

I hate showing my ignorance but I enjoy learning. As such, would somebody please provide an explanation of "yellow tagged"? Thank you.

 

[Tom-D]

To respond to the earlier poster, there's not much loss of value as the engine is still very sell-able to other home builders.


IOWs the market has narrowed to the home builders that trust what the prior owner did to it.

The engine is no longer airworthy in a certified airplane until a qualified maintainer validates that the engine meets the standards spelled out for certified engines by the manufacturer and the FAA.


IOWs they must overhaul it.

The majority of the engine's value is the cost of the parts.. they don't discount jugs just because they are going in a home built.

IOWs you must part it out to get full value of the parts.


That doesn't mean an engine that was owner maintained in an experimental now needs 10 annuals done on it to catch up. It means a qualified maintainer can attest all AD's are complied with and crack the case and measure everything to ensure it meets overhauled or new tolerances.

Yep,,,,,,,, Overhaul it


Airworthiness (from a legal standpoint) is, and always has been, a paperwork exercise.

As someone who has one foot in the experimental (and owner assembled engine) community and one foot in the "certified" community I can assure you that a lycoming or continental or franklin can be legally used in a homebuilt while no longer being legally "airworthy" from a certified airplane standpoint.

Who would? most folks who are smart enough to build a safe aircraft are smart enough to use a better engine. but for those who would it become a gene pool purging process.

 

[Doggtyred]

Who would? most folks who are smart enough to build a safe aircraft are smart enough to use a better engine. but for those who would it become a gene pool purging process.

I think some folks here are seriously underestimating the size and growth of the amateur built market.

Thousands of Van's kits have been sold.. Hundreds of Velocity kits and Cozy plans as well... even if a fraction of those ever take flight we are talking about hundreds or thousands of engines over a given time period.

Most of these guys aren't going to be selling their hand built sample of blood sweat and tears at the drop of a hat.. they are going to fly those engines, maintain them as if their life depended on it (it does) and only sell the plane and or engine when they most likely are hanging up their spurs for good.

So you are going to find two kinds of amateur owner maintained engines on the homebuilt market.. someone selling a well maintained one because they cant fly anymore.. or an estate selling one that may have contributed to the owner's demise.

I'd buy an owner maintained engine in a heartbeat. My minimums are good compression and a few hundred hours since the last "overhaul" or case cracking.. A history of oil analysis wouldn't hurt, but wouldnt be a deal breaker.

Time in service with good parameters will hold more weight than anything else. I'm also the same guy who isn't going to crack the case on a good running engine that happens to have a few hours over what some book says it should have. I'm not a 135 outfit, so no need to waste money in that manner.

To label such engines as junk is premature.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I hate showing my ignorance but I enjoy learning. As such, would somebody please provide an explanation of "yellow tagged"? Thank you.

It's a piece of paper with yellow dye to make it appear "yellow".

Seriously, it means nothing. Years ago when a component was serviced and found to be within limits the outfit doing the work would fill out a yellow "tag" with all the required information and attach it as proof. If it failed inspection it would get a "red tag" or if it needed work it would get a "white tag".

The FAA doesn't acknowledge these anymore, now components must have a FAA 8130 Form attached.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I've seen several friends have trouble selling homebuilts; maybe it's just the down market. But, it's hard to tell how well-built many are, especially the fiber glass ones. My mechanic won't work on one; so, I can't get an opinion from him. There are also insurance issues which can limit buyers. I'm not saying they aren't good planes; just that there are issues which can limit the market for them.

I have a friend that's older who is worried about losing his medical. Has tried to sell his RV-6 several times and hasn't yet. I looked at it and it's a nice bird but the 58P fulfills my cross country flight needs better. I also carry $1MM smooth insurance. My agent said I could only get $100,000 per seat in the RV. His current insurance only covers him and liability. Nice plane, but he does want top dollar.

Best,

Dave

 

[kevin47881]

It's a piece of paper with yellow dye to make it appear "yellow".

Seriously, it means nothing. Years ago when a component was serviced and found to be within limits the outfit doing the work would fill out a yellow "tag" with all the required information and attach it as proof. If it failed inspection it would get a "red tag" or if it needed work it would get a "white tag".

The FAA doesn't acknowledge these anymore, now components must have a FAA 8130 Form attached.

HA!

Thank you.

 

[Tom-D]

It's a piece of paper with yellow dye to make it appear "yellow".

Seriously, it means nothing. Years ago when a component was serviced and found to be within limits the outfit doing the work would fill out a yellow "tag" with all the required information and attach it as proof. If it failed inspection it would get a "red tag" or if it needed work it would get a "white tag".

The FAA doesn't acknowledge these anymore, now components must have a FAA 8130 Form attached.

What would you call this?

 

[Tom-D]

I think some folks here are seriously underestimating the size and growth of the amateur built market.

Thousands of Van's kits have been sold.. Hundreds of Velocity kits and Cozy plans as well... even if a fraction of those ever take flight we are talking about hundreds or thousands of engines over a given time period.

Most of these guys aren't going to be selling their hand built sample of blood sweat and tears at the drop of a hat.. they are going to fly those engines, maintain them as if their life depended on it (it does) and only sell the plane and or engine when they most likely are hanging up their spurs for good.

So you are going to find two kinds of amateur owner maintained engines on the homebuilt market.. someone selling a well maintained one because they cant fly anymore.. or an estate selling one that may have contributed to the owner's demise.

I'd buy an owner maintained engine in a heartbeat. My minimums are good compression and a few hundred hours since the last "overhaul" or case cracking.. A history of oil analysis wouldn't hurt, but wouldnt be a deal breaker.

Time in service with good parameters will hold more weight than anything else. I'm also the same guy who isn't going to crack the case on a good running engine that happens to have a few hours over what some book says it should have. I'm not a 135 outfit, so no need to waste money in that manner.

To label such engines as junk is premature.

Send those engines to the factory for overhaul and see what core charge they allow.

Send any engine to the factory that has been run on auto fuel, see what they allow for core charge.

Don't believe me? do it, and see what happens.

BTDT, it gets expensive.