FAA's ADS-B Audit Report

Thanks DFH65.

This was put out in September. What do you all think will happen? Extend the deadline? Relax the certified WAAS requirement?
 
Your talking about the gov. ,bet they extend the deadline.
 
unlike some other deadlines in the past (which mostly were delayed or modified), I think there is a better than even chance that it won't be with ADS-B out.
 
frfly172 said:
Your talking about the gov. ,bet they extend the deadline.
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And spent 100 million more the try and prove their concept right...

After all, it is just taxpayers money.. The well is bottomless..:mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
That was a pretty damning report in my opinion. The interesting part is that it seemed the biggest hindrance to implementation was that people are boycotting the installation of ADS-B out and in hardware, so they haven't been able to sufficiently prove the system. That's pretty funny, especially as many people have not upgraded because they figure the FAA will postpone it.

My opinion is they will simply extend the 2020 deadline.
 
"FAA currently estimates that it will cost all airspace users about $4 billion to purchase and install new rule - compliant ADS - B Out avionics."
Nice windfall for Garmin.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"FAA currently estimates that it will cost all airspace users about $4 billion to purchase and install new rule - compliant ADS - B Out avionics."
Nice windfall for Garmin.
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Nah, thus is AVIATION--half the money will go to the installers. Because, you know, we just can't be trusted to actually touch anything that is installed in our aircraft. We don't each have FAA Repair Station certification. We can, however, do whatever we want with our cars, which we drive many more miles than we fly, and in very close proximity to other traffic and to opposite direction traffic.
 
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Hank S said:
Nah, thus is AVIATION--half the money will go to the installers. Because, you know, we just can't be trusted to actually touch anything that is installed in our aircraft.
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Unfortunately, the ADS-B products are not easy installs. The two I've looked at in-depth require the fabrication of some pretty involved wiring harnesses. Probably not something most owners would be comfortable building.

I'm surprised nobody (that I know of) has offered a simple plug and play system where you install a GPS antenna, install an ADS-B antenna, hook up a + wire to the buss, and a - wire to the avionics ground and you're on your way.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That was a pretty damning report in my opinion. The interesting part is that it seemed the biggest hindrance to implementation was that people are boycotting the installation of ADS-B out and in hardware, so they haven't been able to sufficiently prove the system. That's pretty funny, especially as many people have not upgraded because they figure the FAA will postpone it.

My opinion is they will simply extend the 2020 deadline.
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2020 is 5 years from now. Who knows if I will even be flying then!
 
kyleb said:
I'm surprised nobody (that I know of) has offered a simple plug and play system where you install a GPS antenna, install an ADS-B antenna, hook up a + wire to the buss, and a - wire to the avionics ground and you're on your way.
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Given this from the audit, I'd be surprised if anyone managed such a thing:
For example, FAA did not approve the proposed manufacturing design for ADS-B Out avionics until 2012— 3 years after it approved the system’s minimum operating standards. The avionics manufacturers we spoke with agreed that FAA can take from 3 to 5 years to approve the avionics’ design and manufacturing process. In addition, FAA must approve any modifications that aircraft operators make to ensure the certified avionics work with their aircraft’s unique requirements and design features, and FAA must also approve operators’ installation of the avionics.20 This additional certification often takes 18 months or more.​
 
I guess some people need pretty PDF reports to recognize massive boondoggles.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
2020 is 5 years from now. Who knows if I will even be flying then!
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That's the logic many have used, along with "I may end up selling the plane and won't get my money back on resale."

The Stratus is another one. Many are buying portable ADS-B In devices that mean there's little benefit to getting a GDL88. Just wait it out and throw in a 330ES transponder in 2019.

I was waiting for the system to get fully implemented on ground stations as I wanted the WX/traffic benefits. Then I went GDL88 last summer. I'm very happy with it. If I ended up selling the 310 it might improve resale some, but we have a pretty nice panel.

Overall, behind schedule and overbudget should be a surprise to no one, in my opinion.
 
All ADS-B is doing is acting as a barrier to better tech. We have cell phones now that are seeing data reception rates of over 50 Mb/sec. Pricing of $30/mo all you can eat.
 
Bob Noel said:
I sold my airplane in 2012 to avoid paying for the GPS and ADS-B out mandate.
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Reminds of that Michael Moore quote: "I was gonna go to college, but I couldn't find parking, so I quit".

:rolleyes2::rofl:
 
N801BH said:
And spent 100 million more the try and prove their concept right...

After all, it is just taxpayers money.. The well is bottomless..:mad2::mad2::mad2:
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The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to adopt the equipment required. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
 
Henning said:
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to adopt the equipment required. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
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That may be true, but what I read in the report shows plenty of blame to go around. The line above "enough users to test" read "However, only limited ADS-B services are being provided to pilots and air traffic controllers, due in part to the fact that FAA has yet to complete modernization of its air traffic automation systems to accommodate ADS-B technology."

It goes on further to explain the limitations of the deployed solutions and the warnings to pilots about not trusting the traffic data. Maybe I'm a little different. I can't raise taxes to pay for something that may have limited value or permanent benefit, Once I'm convinced it is here to stay, I'm in.

Now where did I put that LORAN receiver?
 
Henning said:
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to adopt the equipment required. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
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Lets see...I bet if I dig deep enough in my a$$ I can come up with that easy $15,000+ required to put in a WAAS GPS and an ADS-B system. That will only cost 1/2 of the value of my plane and add 5% to the value of the plane. It will give me an IFR capable GPS that is less user friendly than my VFR only iPad. That would be nice, but is hardly needed. Hummm...I'll get right on that.
 
Henning said:
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to adopt the equipment required. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
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Why should I **** away thousands of dollars on a system that has no value to me, ATC (who already gets all the necessary information from my mode C transponder), or anyone else?
 
Henning said:
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to bow down and submit. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the FAA ranks these days.
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Fixed it for you.

Mandating owners purchase equipment they can't afford, that doesn't meet any actual pilot need, and isn't even used by ATC. Ya, the problem is definitely pilots...
 
I might sell my airplane once this BS becomes mandatory. Sorry, that kind of outlay for something that has absolutely zero value to me (ATC doesn't vector anything away from my poor little VFR six) is too much.
 
It might be more plausible if they intended to decommission most of the radar equipment. Wasn't that one of their original plans, which made this more cost effective and necessary? Then they bait-and-switched to keeping all the radar.
 
The report looks like typical government CYA stuff. I doubt anyone in the FAA is surprised or alarmed. Implementation will be a lengthy process and there'll be bumps in the road. I already appreciate ADS-B in. I won't be required to do any out equipment but for the airspace y'all fly in? I'd think you'd embrace new tech airspace management solutions. Especially as commercial drones start sharing our skies.
 
I do appreciate and embrace new stuff. Especially stuff that keeps me better informed in flight. What I don't appreciate is the dysfunctional and overpriced flustercluck that it has become.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I do appreciate and embrace new stuff. Especially stuff that keeps me better informed in flight. What I don't appreciate is the dysfunctional and overpriced flustercluck that it has become.
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Given we have a full 5 years before the deadline and knowing that tech equipment is always expensive to start and usually sees price reductions with time? I'll withhold any Chicken Little imitations until the market levels itself and I have a better perspective of what's what. But that's just me.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I do appreciate and embrace new stuff. Especially stuff that keeps me better informed in flight.
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Not to mention stuff that can be used to personally identify you and track your every move.

ADS-B is nice in some regards, but it's not all kittens and rainbows.
 
Y'all never filed an IFR flight plan?....what's next to the last couple of things asked for?...maybe a name and phone number? ....for ahem....tracking? :rofl::yikes::hairraise::yikes:
 
Stewartb said:
Given we have a full 5 years before the deadline and knowing that tech equipment is always expensive to start and usually sees price reductions with time? I'll withhold any Chicken Little imitations until the market levels itself and I have a better perspective of what's what. But that's just me.
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If it were any other industry, I would totally agree. But since when did anything in the aviation industry work like that?? There will be a mad dash to buy these products and a mad dash to have them installed. Demand will exceed supply. Price will remain high. For both product and installation. Plus, why would they make it cheaper even if they could?? They can keep charging an arm and leg simply because they can.

It takes years to get new products approved, which makes it pretty much too late for any new revolutionary cheap product to take the market by storm.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Lets see...I bet if I dig deep enough in my a$$ I can come up with that easy $15,000+ required to put in a WAAS GPS and an ADS-B system. That will only cost 1/2 of the value of my plane and add 5% to the value of the plane. It will give me an IFR capable GPS that is less user friendly than my VFR only iPad. That would be nice, but is hardly needed. Hummm...I'll get right on that.
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Welcome to aviation, go beat the **** out of whomever told you it was cheap.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
If it were any other industry, I would totally agree. But since when did anything in the aviation industry work like that?? There will be a mad dash to buy these products and a mad dash to have them installed. Demand will exceed supply. Price will remain high. For both product and installation. Plus, why would they make it cheaper even if they could?? They can keep charging an arm and leg simply because they can.

It takes years to get new products approved, which makes it pretty much too late for any new revolutionary cheap product to take the market by storm.
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In my own aviation experience? GPS is a great example. In the '90s I waited for months to get my Gamin 90 for about $1K. These days we have boxes that are exponentially more functional and half the price. And they still say Garmin on them, too. Every time I open an aviation rag there's some new ADS-B device being introduced. Competition will fuel innovation and competitive pricing. It's happening right before our eyes.
 
Henning said:
Welcome to aviation, go beat the **** out of whomever told you it was cheap.
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I have no problem with the cost of aviation. I do have a problem with people who take swipes at an entire group of pilots just because we won't dive head first into a government mandated clusterf*ck.

Henning said:
It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
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If the benefits justified the costs I would be all over it. They don't so I'm not. There is no moronathon in the pilot ranks. The moronathon is in Oklahoma City.
 
The benefits cannot equate to the costs until everybody decides to play.
 
Some guys like to believe the FAA isn't happy until you're unhappy. I never subscribed to that. I think some guys are determined to be unhappy no matter what.

I always liked this FAA video about ADS-B. It helped me make sense of what the concept was all about. http://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=96
 
Henning said:
Traffic, weather, and the full range of GPS approaches.
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Traffic and weather, which the vast majority of GA pilots who can't afford it don't need or want. Therefore it is not a benefit to them.

And GPS approaches have nothing at all to do with ADS-B. If you are thinking about installing a $16,000 IFR GPS system simply to provide a position source to a UAT, you're an idiot.
 
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