FAA requires older Piper planes to be checked for damaged cables

Shorty

The Ad contains no specifics other than the referral to Piper SB 1245A but within that document you'll find this statement:

A logbook entry documenting the replacement of any flight control
cable or turnbuckle body will relieve the inspection requirement for that
component only, until such time as that component has been in service
for 15 calendar years.
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So you're good for 13 more years.
 
So as the new owner of an old airplane will I be notified of these requirements in some fashion or is this something that only gets ferreted out by the A&P at annual time?

Notwithstanding the great source of information this website affords me!
 
tmyers said:
So as the new owner of an old airplane will I be notified of these requirements in some fashion or is this something that only gets ferreted out by the A&P at annual time?

Notwithstanding the great source of information this website affords me!
Click to expand...

I do believe they are mailed out to owners, but you can sign up for electronic notification directly from piper as well.


-VanDy
 
Thanks Vandy, Request submitted!!!

Buckeye Aviation takes care of me again. Great lookin plane on your website by the way.
 
tmyers said:
Thanks Vandy, Request submitted!!!

Buckeye Aviation takes care of me again. Great lookin plane on your website by the way.
Click to expand...

Always glad to help!

It's the appropriate colors too :D


-VanDy
 
RotorAndWing said:
On the other hand the person doing the annual inspection (IA) should avail himself the knowledge of the aircraft and it's particular AD's, SB's and MSB's. The IA should discuss with the owner about complying with the items and the importance of doing so, and if the owner refuses then at least the IA should have the owner sign a statement listing the SB's and that the owner acknowledges that he is not complying with said SB's.
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You know that sounds good on paper but the fact is that with any 30+ year old GA airplane if you aren't the original owner who bought it new from the factory, never changed your address and never lost a single piece of paper that was sent to you then you'll find it's a daunting task to compile a complete list of every applicable manufacturer's service bulletin, service letter or service instruction of the airframe, engine, propeller and virtually EVERY single component on the airplane. Some manufacturers are better than others at providing a meaningful index and access to these documents but hey, why stop there? What about Maintenance Alerts, Service Difficulty Reports?

Technically it's the owner's responsibility to have all of this information but how many owners have you met who do? Often you're lucky to find an up to date AD compliance list in the paperwork.

I'd love to live in a perfect world too, but I don't.
 
Silvaire said:
You know that sounds good on paper but the fact is that with any 30+ year old GA airplane if you aren't the original owner who bought it new from the factory, never changed your address and never lost a single piece of paper that was sent to you then you'll find it's a daunting task to compile a complete list of every applicable manufacturer's service bulletin, service letter or service instruction of the airframe, engine, propeller and virtually EVERY single component on the airplane. Some manufacturers are better than others at providing a meaningful index and access to these documents but hey, why stop there? What about Maintenance Alerts, Service Difficulty Reports?

Technically it's the owner's responsibility to have all of this information but how many owners have you met who do? Often you're lucky to find an up to date AD compliance list in the paperwork.

I'd love to live in a perfect world too, but I don't.
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My A&P/IA was used to maintain my own aircraft and a very select few others. As an owner I went above and beyond to have all manufacturers data available to me.

There's another thread running now how what it cost to use a substandard mechanic.
 
N801BH said:
The IA should get out of the business if he/she cannot and will not get all pertinent data for any airframe they are performing mechanical work on....

:mad::mad2::mad2::mad2:
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Bull scat. WE are not required to comply with SBs in part 91 for a very good reason. If the FAA required us to comply with all SBs the manufacturers could and would require us to replace every part in our aircraft every time we fly.and if we try to get owners to comply with the SBs that make sense the owners cry about the expense.

Part 39 has a purpose, and the FAA just used it.
 
RotorAndWing said:
There's another thread running now how what it cost to use a substandard mechanic.
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Yes, by an owner of an aged Cherokee who claims his own time to be so valuable that it would effectively cost him $225 to change that little Adel clamp himself ($150 r/t to airport and $75/hr lost by not doing whatever else it is that he does) Heck, just looking up and acquiring the part he needs would probably "effectively" cost him an additional $100.

What he wants is a new machine under warranty with a factory maintenance contract, what he has is a worn out old Cherokee.

and it's the A&P's fault
 
Silvaire said:
Yes, by an owner of an aged Cherokee who claims his own time to be so valuable that it would effectively cost him $225 to change that little Adel clamp himself ($150 r/t to airport and $75/hr lost by not doing whatever else it is that he does) Heck, just looking up and acquiring the part he needs would probably "effectively" cost him an additional $100.

What he wants is a new machine under warranty with a factory maintenance contract, what he has is a worn out old Cherokee.

and it's the A&P's fault
Click to expand...

Perhaps that's how you read it, but I read it as "I purchase a service from this individual and expect to get my money's worth".
 
Tom-D said:
Bull scat. WE are not required to comply with SBs in part 91 for a very good reason. If the FAA required us to comply with all SBs the manufacturers could and would require us to replace every part in our aircraft every time we fly.and if we try to get owners to comply with the SBs that make sense the owners cry about the expense.

Part 39 has a purpose, and the FAA just used it.
Click to expand...

+1

There are a lot of people who cannot separate the regulatory manager (FAA) who can make you do something, and the OEM who can only scream bloody murder in attempt to get a desired outcome, or understand why it's important they be separate.

Of course during litigation, "reasonable care" blurs the line.


You wanna know what the cost of SBs can amount to just read this:

http://www.aneclecticmind.com/2010/12/28/the-real-cost-of-helicopter-ownership/#.URHhany9KSM

The aircraft has an airworthiness certificate when the helicopter was new but the OEM knew thier fuel tank design sucks and a pile of other design shortcomings.



OEM - We will get a product into production and passed certification ASAP, which is compliance to the bare minimum requirements of the regulations, then charge everyone via Service Bulletins to pick up the slack in crappy design that the FAA certification process doesn't catch. It's a win-win. We keep the initial sale price low and get the new owners to pay R&D costs on the backside after a sale.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Perhaps that's how you read it, but I read it as "I purchase a service from this individual and expect to get my money's worth".
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Yeah, and his money's worth included missing collapsed exhaust baffles.

I think Silvaire's got it wrong, but I can understand where he's coming from.

See my comment in that string. :mad:

Plane Driver - for Fun said:
You wanna know what the cost of SBs can amount to just read this:

http://www.aneclecticmind.com/2010/1.../#.URHhany9KSM

The aircraft has an airworthiness certificate when the helicopter was new but the OEM knew thier fuel tank design sucks and a pile of other design shortcomings.
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I read this as, First time aircraft owner believes everything he reads, and gets suckered. Look at Cessna's est'd operating costs for the Citation series. This happens at EVERY level, and the bigger you bite the bigger the hurt. Now he's crying because he doesn't have the cash throughput he once had.

I don't think Wayne or anyone in his position looks at the mfr's estimates as anything more than a "I have a rock bottom optimistic estimate for your, and we'll build our own and that'll be "somewhat" above that....." Remember, the OEM wants to make the sale....
 
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I agree this was a new owner shocked by reality, but there is more to it than that. Also the owner is female not a male.


In regards to your statement "OEM wants to make sales" please read the paragraph I added above. It's like drug companies planning for the litigation before drugs are released.
 
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bbchien said:
Yeah, and his money's worth included missing collapsed exhaust baffles.

I think Silvaire's got it wrong, but I can understand where he's coming from.
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I have no knowledge of either shop and I agree the exhaust baffles is a serious miss. I also understand Rotors "contract" issue but my point is that if you possess a 30+ year old airplane it is foolhardy to be so disengaged from the ownership process. There's just no way around it.
 
JHW said:
it's also pretty hard to miss. BTW ours was the same. cable corrosion is a common complaint in ag planes and pawnee's in particular.
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Our Pawnee as not been in AG service since the mid 1980s. It's been in a desert environment since 2000.
 
BillTIZ said:
Our Pawnee as not been in AG service since the mid 1980s. It's been in a desert environment since 2000.
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were the cables replaced since then ? I'll wager they were original
 
Well I've got at least two of these to do now, and had this been out a week sooner I would have just done it to the one I rigged the stabilator and trim system on.

Oh well
 
steingar said:
J Mac McClellan hits it out of the park.
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I have to disagree, having read the SB it goes well beyond the "good maintenance" level. If we were just talking about a simple inspection of the cable and turnbuckle I would agree.

However an annual is a fairly minimally invasive inspection. If I should be disassembling every turnbuckle at annual where do we stop? Should I drill out the rivets on the structure to access the areas I cannot see? Note that the Piper checklists specify to inspect VISIBLE internal structure. There are no inspection panels on the stabilator, so should I persist in inspecting the inside of it? Even with good inspection techniques and an inspection camera there are still places inside of the plane I have never been able to see.

The process of disassembling the turnbuckle, requiring a complete rerig of the stab system is well beyond standard inspection practice. If it's a needed step or not I do not know, I can report back in a year after I have worked my way through the applicable planes I take care of, but that still leave the vast majority of the fleet that I haven't seen.
 
Silvaire said:
Yes, by an owner of an aged Cherokee who claims his own time to be so valuable that it would effectively cost him $225 to change that little Adel clamp himself ($150 r/t to airport and $75/hr lost by not doing whatever else it is that he does)
Click to expand...

Since you're calling me out, read my reply. The plane is in the shop and taken apart. To do it myself, I have to go down during business hours.
Or, I can have him do everything else, cowl it back up, then go out on the weekend and fix what I can, and then pay him to come back and inspect it.

If this was an issue of me finding something and fixing it on my own, then yeah. I have done and do repairs to my bird, but at this time, with it in his shop and opened up, there is no economical way to accomplish that.

I am not "disengaged" from the ownership experience.
I have done two owner-assist annuals where I did all the grunt work, I do my research on parts and mechanical issues, I set priorities for maintenance, and I know my plane.
I replaced the door hinges and clevises under supervision of an IA, removed old avionics and wiring when the panel got upgraded, changed the oil and filter with my A&P watching (teaching me how to look for metal chips and how to safety the filter), repainted the engine mounts, and replaced two aileron hinges.

I will cross post this comment to the appropriate thread, and will not comment here further so as not to hijack the OP's questions.
 
Here's my take on it. Thank you for putting out the AD.

We are talking about know failure on a primary flight control. If your cable let loose, could you fly and land without elevator control? Really, could you do it? Thanks to Bob for putting out the how to do it, but how many knew how to do it before?

Should this have been checked at annual. Yes. If your mechanic did it on a regular basis, then he did his job. Keep him! If your mechanic doesn't, maybe you should be looking for a different one.
 
bnt83 said:
I agree this was a new owner shocked by reality, but there is more to it than that. Also the owner is female not a male.
Click to expand...
And gender is relevant why?

In regards to your statement "OEM wants to make sales" please read the paragraph I added above. It's like drug companies planning for the litigation before drugs are released.
Click to expand...
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Here's my take on it. Thank you for putting out the AD.

We are talking about know failure on a primary flight control. If your cable let loose, could you fly and land without elevator control? Really, could you do it? Thanks to Bob for putting out the how to do it, but how many knew how to do it before?

Should this have been checked at annual. Yes. If your mechanic did it on a regular basis, then he did his job. Keep him! If your mechanic doesn't, maybe you should be looking for a different one.
Click to expand...

Do you really want your A&P-IA disassembling your control cables at each turn buckle on every annual?
 
You took me too literally. I mean that I'd expect my mechanic to check the cables every annual. The AD does go further than that. The implication in the article was that the issue should have been caught at annual.


Tom-D said:
Do you really want your A&P-IA disassembling your control cables at each turn buckle on every annual?
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jonnyjetprop said:
You took me too literally. I mean that I'd expect my mechanic to check the cables every annual. The AD does go further than that. The implication in the article was that the issue should have been caught at annual.
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Not likely to happen if the corrosion is happening inside the swedged end or turnbuckle. I have seen a flap cable fail on a 172 that corroded under the follow up cable clamp. No corrosion or fraying was evident beyond the clamp imediatly before the failure. Granted it took 30 years and more than 12k hours but it still happened.

Like I said there are somethings that are just not visible during the minimally invase inspection we call an annual.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Here's my take on it. Thank you for putting out the AD.

We are talking about know failure on a primary flight control. If your cable let loose, could you fly and land without elevator control? Really, could you do it? Thanks to Bob for putting out the how to do it, but how many knew how to do it before?

Should this have been checked at annual. Yes. If your mechanic did it on a regular basis, then he did his job. Keep him! If your mechanic doesn't, maybe you should be looking for a different one.
Click to expand...
If you want me to completely disassemble all you flight control cable and examine with a 10X, sure bring it in. We can bill it accordingly.

Tom-D said:
Do you really want your A&P-IA disassembling your control cables at each turn buckle on every annual?
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:

bnt83 said:
:popcorn:
Click to expand...
:popcorn:

jonnyjetprop said:
You took me too literally. I mean that I'd expect my mechanic to check the cables every annual. The AD does go further than that. The implication in the article was that the issue should have been caught at annual.
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No he didn't. You said "Should this have been checked at annual. Yes. If your mechanic did it on a regular basis, then he did his job. Keep him! If your mechanic doesn't, maybe you should be looking for a different one!"
So no it shouldn't have been checked. Yes you check the cables, but you don't disassemble them all. If the owner wanted the MSB taken care of, fine.
 
Leave it to the FAA to use a draconian AD where a bit of common sense would do. Heaven forbid any airplane anywhere might actually break.
 
Tom-D said:
Do you really want your A&P-IA disassembling your control cables at each turn buckle on every annual?
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If there is a SB = Service Bulletin.... Hell ya.... I want YOU to look at those items REAL close..... Why would you even think otherwise.:dunno::dunno::dunno:...
 
N801BH said:
If there is a SB = Service Bulletin.... Hell ya.... I want YOU to look at those items REAL close..... Why would you even think otherwise.:dunno::dunno::dunno:...
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so you propose to not only comply with every SB, but to repeat them every year ?
 
So how much is a set of rudder, elevator cables and, if appropriate trim cables? I haven't read the AD as I don't have a Piper, but what would it cost to replace the cable set every 15 years?
 
JHW said:
so you propose to not only comply with every SB, but to repeat them every year ?
Click to expand...


Duh..................................... Look at them closely and IRAN.... If all the A&P's IA's had done that like the FAA asked for during the SB stage when they were looking for feedback there might not have been a AD issued...... IMHO...........
 
N801BH said:
Duh..................................... Look at them closely and IRAN.... If all the A&P's IA's had done that like the FAA asked for during the SB stage when they were looking for feedback there might not have been a AD issued...... IMHO...........
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So you want the engine overhauled ever 12 years regardless of hours?

The prop every 6?

Those are also spelled out in mandatory SBs
 
Skylane81E said:
So you want the engine overhauled ever 12 years regardless of hours?

The prop every 6?

Those are also spelled out in mandatory SBs
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I have owned a few certified ships...... NEVER again....:nonod::no:...

Experimentals are looking better all the time...:yes::yes::D
 
N801BH said:
If there is a SB = Service Bulletin.... Hell ya.... I want YOU to look at those items REAL close..... Why would you even think otherwise.:dunno::dunno::dunno:...
Click to expand...

Once again I do not believe you understand the relationship of SBs to airworthiness in part 91.

Looking at and disassembling to the degree necessary to comply with this SB are two way different things.

The normal cable inspection method is given in the AC 43.13-1B. para 7-149

this SB is WAY over the top in the methods that are normally used in inspection of installed cables systems.
 
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