FAA clamping down on English?

LDJones

LDJones

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jonesy
I received this e-mail which said in part:
FAAST Blast to all CFIs
Notice Number: NOTC4551


In accordance with FAA Notice N8900.204, which was effective 01/11/2013, we wish to inform you of your responsibility to identify any applicant for a certificate or rating who does not demonstrate the English language skill standards in accordance with 14 CFR regulations and FAA policy. You should report appropriate information about the airman to the nearest FSDO. The FSDO ASI will then take action in accordance with Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Section 5.

Discussion. Title 14 CFR parts 61, 63, and 65 address English language skills currently required for airman certification. Part 61 requires that pilots must be able to read, write, speak, and understand the English language. The responsibility for ensuring applicants meet the English language eligibility requirements is shared by CFIs and GIs, part 141 and non-part 141 aviation pilot training schools, part 142 training centers, TCEs, DPEs, ASIs, and AMEs.

Consequences of Failing to Meet the English Language Proficiency Requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may exercise the privileges of an airman certificate issued under part 61, 63, or 65 unless that person meets the English language proficiency requirements of those parts. If a person holding an airman certificate issued under these parts does not meet the English language proficiency requirements, the Administrator will take action to suspend, revoke, or reissue that person’s airman certificate; this action is permitted under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) § 44709.

The complete Notice can be found at http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices and is available on FAASafety.gov at https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2013/Jan/N_8900_204.pdf
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Unfortunately, neither of the links seems to be valid and using the search engine I can't find the actual order.

In any event, assuming this is in place, it raises as many questions as the memo seems to address. Does a heavy accent call into question "English language proficiency"? I have a student with a very heavy accent. She's incredibly smart, motivated and a great student, but English is a second language for her. She understands everything, never asks for things to be repeated and articulately asks intelligent questions, but with a heavy accent.

Does the FAA want me to report her?? :dunno: :yikes:
 
If a controller has to ask her to repeat her request 3 to 4 times, perhaps so. I've heard obvious ESL pilots on the radio, and I'm thinking "WTF did they just say?"
 
EdFred said:
If a controller has to ask her to repeat her request 3 to 4 times, perhaps so. I've heard obvious ESL pilots on the radio, and I'm thinking "WTF did they just say?"
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I don't recall a controller ever asking for her to say anything again. I think she's more intelligible than a NOAA weather broadcast, but may actually be the person recording those messages!
 
LDJones said:
I don't recall a controller ever asking for her to say anything again. I think she's more intelligible than a NOAA weather broadcast, but may actually be the person recording those messages!
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Then I would say she is fine. Is she Russian? I always thought those broadcasts (along with the ATIS at Bravos) are a Russian computer.
 
I once asked a crew from some Scandinavian country (Norway?) if they needed to do something to satisfy the ICAO English requirement. They said they had to take a listening test but that it wasn't very rigorous. I don't recall that they had to take a speaking test.
 
Everskyward said:
I once asked a crew from some Scandinavian country (Norway?) if they needed to do something to satisfy the ICAO English requirement. They said they had to take a listening test but that it wasn't very rigorous. I don't recall that they had to take a speaking test.
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Here in Minnesota the Norwegians are also required to deliver fresh lefse to the tower. :lol:
 
I hope the FAA does clamp down on English. Have any of you flown through Boston Center's airspace lately?

Boston_zps8f48fff8.jpg
 
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I'm on an airpark in AZ. The air is filled with unintelligible gibberish that is supposed to be English. Downright dangerous when you're in crowded airspace, trying to figure out if a position report is at you location.:mad2:

Paul
Salome, AZ
 
pmanton said:
I'm on an airpark in AZ. The air is filled with unintelligible gibberish that is supposed to be English. Downright dangerous when you're in crowded airspace, trying to figure out if a position report is at you location.:mad2:

Paul
Salome, AZ
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It is unfortunately one of the reasons that Phoenix TRACON is so hostile towards GA.
 
The big question here is.....will this plan by the FAA survive first contact with the White House???
 
My friend is flying here under an English license. Is he in trouble??

Oh, wait...
 
LDJones said:
Does a heavy accent call into question "English language proficiency"?
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I wouldn't think so on its own.

If two-way communication works reliably in both directions, she is proficient in English, with or without a strong accent. Even if it isn't very comfortable for her.

14 CFR 61.83(c) says a student pilot must be able to read, speak, write and understand the English language. That doesn't say anything about accents.
 
Everskyward said:
I once asked a crew from some Scandinavian country (Norway?) if they needed to do something to satisfy the ICAO English requirement. They said they had to take a listening test but that it wasn't very rigorous. I don't recall that they had to take a speaking test.
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In order for me to get a foreign license conversion of my ATP I had to take an English Language Proficiency Test. This required me to go in a booth with a headset, and as the moderator would ask a question I would have to answer into a recorder. One question was a clearance which I read back, then the other questions were scenario type such as "Your aircraft is low on fuel and the weather is deteriorating at the destination, describe your pilot actions".

The score on the test was 1 thru 6. A minimum of 4 is required (ICAO) to be "English Proficient", but a score of 4 or 5 means the test must be retaken every year (4) or every three years (5). If you score a 6 then the test and certificate is good for life.

BTW, over here in Asia the Chinese and Korean pilots all score a 6 on the ELP. :rolleyes:
 
LDJones said:
I received this e-mail which said in part:


Unfortunately, neither of the links seems to be valid and using the search engine I can't find the actual order.

In any event, assuming this is in place, it raises as many questions as the memo seems to address. Does a heavy accent call into question "English language proficiency"? I have a student with a very heavy accent. She's incredibly smart, motivated and a great student, but English is a second language for her. She understands everything, never asks for things to be repeated and articulately asks intelligent questions, but with a heavy accent.

Does the FAA want me to report her?? :dunno: :yikes:
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If a "heavy accent" is disqualifying a bunch of pilots from southern states will have to turn in their certificates.
 
A possible explanation for this was posted by Cap'n Ron on the red board:

BTW, I heard from inside the FAA that one of the things leading to this "blast" was a case where a 141 school brought in a DPE for a week to sub for their regular DPE who was on vacation or sick or something. When two people walked in for the oral, the sub asked who the second person was. "I'm the translator," said the second person. "Sorry, that's not allowed," said the DPE. "But the regular DPE always allows it," said the translator. "Not with me," says the DPE, as he picks up the phone to call the FSDO.
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http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?p=1612904#post1612904
 
There was an interview with Prince Harry last week on the news, I'm sure his English is perfect but I swear I didn't understand a word he said....
 
jbarrass said:
There was an interview with Prince Harry last week on the news, I'm sure his English is perfect but I swear I didn't understand a word he said....
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Well you see our problem is that we don't really speak "English." :D
 
Not long ago, I was inbound to transit the DFW Bravo west to east, and heard a couple of Cessnas in sequence check on with Regional Approach on departure from Arlington (KGKY), picking up flight following squawks. Clearly foreign, barely understandable.

First one did fine, second one ignored three calls in a row. Then, an AA heavy checked in off DFW, and Regional cleared him to "climb and maintain one two thousand.". The second Cessna immediately read back, "..climb and maintain one two tousant."

Oops...
 
jbarrass said:
There was an interview with Prince Harry last week on the news, I'm sure his English is perfect but I swear I didn't understand a word he said....
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You think that's bad, try listening to Scottish comedian Billy Connolly, a native Glaswegian. Took me four years in the UK before I understood a bloody word he said.

BTW, having spent six years living in England, I am bilingual -- I'm fluent in both the Queen's English and ours.
 
I had a Scottish roommate once never understood a word he said.
 
jbarrass said:
There was an interview with Prince Harry last week on the news, I'm sure his English is perfect but I swear I didn't understand a word he said....
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Well, it's possible that HRH made an error two in the English department. His big brother, on the other hand, once his dad and grandma kick off, well, his English will, by definition, be the correct...the King's English so to speak.
 
Ron Levy said:
You think that's bad, try listening to Scottish comedian Billy Connolly, a native Glaswegian. Took me four years in the UK before I understood a bloody word he said.

BTW, having spent six years living in England, I am bilingual -- I'm fluent in both the Queen's English and ours.
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I never had trouble understanding Scots. Worked for years with companies that had folks over in Scotland. Then I had to go for a couple weeks to our Aberdeen office...was fine until I heard them talking to each other...I was completely lost at that point.
 
@Spike,,, sounds like a typical day at KDTO
 
I have a friend at work who is from Scotland. It takes me 5 minutes to tune the filters before I can understand him. And he's been here for quite a few years. :D But, is he proficient in English? You bet, and brilliant, to boot.
 
Well at least this is one area that I do not have too many issues with :)
I used to be an ESL teacher years ago.
 
English as spoken by ATC in some parts of the world ain't zackly the same as in Elk City, OK.
 
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