FAA and VA Data Sharing

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ttexrbomb

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Ryan
It is my understanding that the VA and FAA share data. My question is fairly straightforward. When you check YES, I am receiving disability, I assume that prompts the FAA to check your VA disability records.

My question is this. What does the FAA see? Just your disability ratings or do they see your entire medical history (both Service connected and non service connected medical info)?

I answered this question in 12/2017 to the affirmative and have heard nothing but crickets from the FAA. So I am just curious.


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I'm not sure anybody really knows the answer to this question. I just assume they know EVERYTHING. As for not hearing back from the FAA there have been recent posts about turnaround times, maybe do a search.
 
I’m not concerned. I was issued the medical but I was just a little curious on what detail they share. I know they share a great deal with Social Security but that is a non issue with me.

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They want to know what the disability is for. If it's for some physical reason that doesn't interfere with you being able to operate an aircraft, it's no big thing.
If you got disability on PTSD, depression, or some other mental issue, you've got a tough slog ahead.

They'll figure this out whether you check 18y or not. If they do find you've lied and said no, the lightest you'll get off with is losing your certificates.
There were just four aviators in the news who are looking at criminal charges for lying on the application in just this situation.
 
I saw the report about the aviators who lied and were charged. It’s unfortunate.

I have a slight concern on my disability in that when I initially applied, I had a VSO assist in the application process. From a VA perspective they helped me. But from an FAA standpoint, I have a concern. They took an attitude of “throwing a bunch of stuff out there to see what would stick”. By claiming the conditions, the VSO has the best intentions because they were trying to see it was appropriate that i be diagnosed with those conditions. But in the end I wasn’t. It they are still listed on my history.

One example. I have tinnitus, which was disclosed. No big deal. I was awarded disability for it. But they also claimed headaches and dizziness as secondary. Those secondary claims were denied - because I was never diagnosed or treated for them. Yes, I’ve had headaches and yes, I’ve been dizzy a time or two. So they listed it. Now I get a headache once every few months, and I’m dizzy maybe once a year if that. But I’ve never sought treatment for it. I’ve never taken medication for it. And on the FAA form, I can honestly say I do not have frequent or chronic migraines. But it is listed on my disability application history because it was listed.

Another question was sleep apnea. No, I’ve never been diagnosed with it. But a claim was filed by the VSO because I snored at one point in my life. Sleep study ordered came back with no sleep apnea. But it’s still on my history.

Mentioning it to the FAA can open me up to unnecessary scrutiny for conditions that I don’t have. Which begs me to ask. How do I prove I don’t have the conditions? They can look through medical records and see I’ve never been treated for it. Would that be sufficient?




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One thing I want to also mention is this. I had a non DUI license suspension due to a ticket in 2014. I checked no on the box. When i called the FAA medical section to see if that was the right choice, they said yes. Hence my comment earlier about not wanting to open a can of worms. The technicians statement to me was if I checked yes, a simple administration action could open me up to unnecessary scrutiny when NO would have been the right answer.


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I don’t know the rule for VA claims records, but military health records are property of the government, not the member.

Oh, the VA criteria for a PTSD disability does not require nor equal a DSM diagnosis of PTSD.

I have no idea what this contributes to the discussion.

If you’re applying for a medical and have anything other than a perfectly clean medical and legal history, it pays to consult with industry experts such as the two mentioned here so you get the right information and take the right actions up front.
 
During the 2004-2005 Operation Safe Pilot "investigation", special agents of the Department of Transportation Inspector General's office presented me with a three inch thick stack of documents from the Social Security Administration related to the one year period between June, 1995 and June, 1996 when I had collected disability benefits a decade earlier.

I think it is safe to assume they have access to everything, whether obtained legally or not.
 
Stan Cooper said:
During the 2004-2005 Operation Safe Pilot "investigation", special agents of the Department of Transportation Inspector General's office presented me with a three inch thick stack of documents from the Social Security Administration related to the one year period between June, 1995 and June, 1996 when I had collected disability benefits a decade earlier.

I think it is safe to assume they have access to everything, whether obtained legally or not.
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I can't believe they did that to you. The Feds are out of control.:mad3:
 
FAA = Fed government
VA = Fed government
Social Security Admin = Fed government

No one should be surprised or even bothered that they share data amongst themselves. If what you say to one agency contradicts what you say to another, you have lied to the federal government. And they really don’t like when you do that. Simple concept.
 
SkyDog58 said:
FAA = Fed government
VA = Fed government
Social Security Admin = Fed government

No one should be surprised or even bothered that they share data amongst themselves. If what you say to one agency contradicts what you say to another, you have lied to the federal government. And they really don’t like when you do that. Simple concept.
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You’d be surprised at the dysfunction at the Federal level. Getting two Federal agencies to actually talk let alone share information takes a ridiculous amount of effort. Databases are all proprietary. Websites are not compatible. And no one wants to talk to anyone.

The FAA is probably able to access what the VA has now, but it probably took a couple of decades of work on the FAA’s part to achieve that.
 
SkyDog58 said:
FAA = Fed government
VA = Fed government
Social Security Admin = Fed government

No one should be surprised or even bothered that they share data amongst themselves. If what you say to one agency contradicts what you say to another, you have lied to the federal government. And they really don’t like when you do that. Simple concept.
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It's simply not that simple.

https://www.justice.gov/opcl/privacy-act-1974
 
SkyDog58 said:
FAA = Fed government
VA = Fed government
Social Security Admin = Fed government

No one should be surprised or even bothered that they share data amongst themselves. If what you say to one agency contradicts what you say to another, you have lied to the federal government. And they really don’t like when you do that. Simple concept.
Click to expand...

My experience working in government is there are fiefdoms. Jealousy and competition exist between them more than cooperation in many cases although I cannot speak about the VA, SSA or FAA specifically, just wouldn't be surprised if they don't automatically share info.

I thought one of the reasons 9/11 happened was because the NSA and the CIA, FBI and or other federal agencies couldn't share information between them, and they had to totally reconstruct national security to allow sharing of info.

However, I still stand by my prior post: we should assume all of them see and share everything.
 
Yeah it’s doctor patient confidentiality, well minus the tens of thousands in the government who also can look at your records lol

It’s getting to the point you don’t want to tell your doc anything you wouldn’t put on the Internet
 
James331 said:
Yeah it’s doctor patient confidentiality, well minus the tens of thousands in the government who also can look at your records lol

It’s getting to the point you don’t want to tell your doc anything you wouldn’t put on the Internet
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I wonder how many unnecessary deaths are caused by exactly that?
 
bbchien said:
That's correct. It's not only about big brother, it's also about telling the truth.....remember the for 8500-8 is essentially an affidavit.
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Bruce, I completely agree, and admitted my guilt. The government didn't until after I brought my lawsuit and the federal courts ruled that the agencies had violated the privacy act multiple times during the Operation Safe Pilot investigation as none of the twelve statutory exceptions applied for the database matches to be legal.
 
I just don’t understand the logic of someone telling the government that they are disabled in order to get a check from that government and then to tell the same government that they are not disabled in order to be able to gain a privilege (ie flying) from that government and then to blame that government when it catches them doing so.
 
bbchien said:
That's correct. It's not only about big brother, it's also about telling the truth.....remember the for 8500-8 is essentaily an affidavit.
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o_O

Because we should take the high ground at our expense for the government who lies to us more than it tells the truth!
 
As we discussed on the red board, the FAA has never felt as if they were constrained by obeying the privacy act. Stan had his lawsuit. I was close to filing mine, but lost interest now that I'm a bit further away from a federal court.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I just don’t understand the logic of someone telling the government that they are disabled in order to get a check from that government and then to tell the same government that they are not disabled in order to be able to gain a privilege (ie flying) from that government and then to blame that government when it catches them doing so.
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I do agree. For the record though, I disclosed all my disabilities on the 8500. If you’ve ever been through the VA claim process, you’ll know what I’m referring to above. Much of what was on my initial claim was diagnostic, meaning there was an attempt to see if I had the conditions claimed. When you claim a condition, they will have you see a doctor to see whether you have the condition or not, and if so whether the condition is related to military service.

So on my disability history, headaches are listed. But I checked ‘no’ on the 8500 because there is no diagnosis nor do I have chronic or migraine. This is a case of the VA using one terminology and the FAA using another.

Hopefully nobody on this thread feels I am lying on the 8500. I am not. I am simply trying to get clarification.


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SkyDog58 said:
I just don’t understand the logic of someone telling the government that they are disabled in order to get a check from that government and then to tell the same government that they are not disabled in order to be able to gain a privilege (ie flying) from that government and then to blame that government when it catches them doing so.
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My disability benefits were obtained for 12 months when I was disabled and wasn't flying. By 1998 when I applied for a third class medical certificate I was healthy, had terminated disability benefits two years before, and had returned to work. There was conflicting information from the FAA about the requirements for me to obtain a special issuance medical and fearing I would be arbitrarily disqualified, I lied. It was a serious lapse in judgment and I paid a very heavy price (~$250,000 in legal expenses appealing the revocations and defending myself against the criminal charges).

In 54 years and ~3,000 hours as a pilot, I have never been involved in an accident, incident, or had a pilot deviation, and eighteen months after the emergency revocations I was issued new special issuance medical and private pilot airman certificates after a thorough review of my medical records and a thorough physical exam by a senior AME designated by the Western-Pacific regional flight surgeon. I still fly regularly and have maintained my perfect safety record.
 
ttexrbomb said:
I do agree. For the record though, I disclosed all my disabilities on the 8500. If you’ve ever been through the VA claim process, you’ll know what I’m referring to above. Much of what was on my initial claim was diagnostic, meaning there was an attempt to see if I had the conditions claimed. When you claim a condition, they will have you see a doctor to see whether you have the condition or not, and if so whether the condition is related to military service.

So on my disability history, headaches are listed. But I checked ‘no’ on the 8500 because there is no diagnosis nor do I have chronic or migraine. This is a case of the VA using one terminology and the FAA using another.

Hopefully nobody on this thread feels I am lying on the 8500. I am not. I am simply trying to get clarification.


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Click to expand...

Reagrding the semantincs of VA disability ratings. The problem is how they're taken to the extreme, and you end up with airline pilots being compensated for a 90% disability rating, still are able to hold a class I medical and make 250K flying airliners around, while a cat with amputations has to make due with 60, or another airline guy loses his airline job over eye cancer and VA gives him 30 for the eye. The retort of course, if you follow the thread on APC about this very topic, is that disability rating does not equal degree physical impairment. Technically true, but absolutely morally abhorrent to me an argument to make, as a servicemember myself.

To the prior poster's question, the answer is: 'cuz they can. Human self-interest will always rule the day. Greed, Hate the game not the playa, pick your platitude. I choose to leave some money on the table in life over principles. That is my prerogative. If I were king I'd means-test the Sh@t out of VA disability payments. These airline guys know what side their bread is buttered on. Very few would actually balk at lifetime incomes on the airline career over the opportunity cost of a hypothetical say 50% reduction on their existing VA rating payment. I digress.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I just don’t understand the logic of someone telling the government that they are disabled in order to get a check from that government and then to tell the same government that they are not disabled in order to be able to gain a privilege (ie flying) from that government and then to blame that government when it catches them doing so.
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Some people just get greedy and want it all. I have no problem with getting disability from their military service, but if it is something that could prevent you from flying, you need to decide what’s more important.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Some people just get greedy and want it all. I have no problem with getting disability from their military service, but if it is something that could prevent you from flying, you need to decide what’s more important.
Click to expand...

So let me give you an example for me. I am getting a 20% rating for ‘Status post excision - right middle finger’. The military cut off a wart and my finger is deformed now, hence the rating. This is an example of where the VA will assign a rating, but it has nothing to do with my ability to fly from a medical perspective. I am also getting a 10% rating for tinnitus, yet I am able to still pass a hearing test. Keep in mind...all disclosed and none are disqualifying. Yet it gives you an example of the difference between the VA and SS system of disability.


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ttexrbomb said:
So let me give you an example for me. I am getting a 20% rating for ‘Status post excision - right middle finger’. The military cut off a wart and my finger is deformed now, hence the rating. This is an example of where the VA will assign a rating, but it has nothing to do with my ability to fly from a medical perspective. I am also getting a 10% rating for tinnitus, yet I am able to still pass a hearing test. Keep in mind...all disclosed and none are disqualifying. Yet it gives you an example of the difference between the VA and SS system of disability.
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This.

Your problem with all those possible diagnoses being in the record is probably much more widespread than we can guess. I have not been able to remove a diagnosis of diabetes from my records, that one doctor wrongly put in there. When I confronted her she said, "well we don't have a code for pre-diabetes so I just use the diabetes one." I asked her to rectify it but she has been unwilling or unable to do so, I still get "how to manage your diabetes" brochures in the mail from all kinds of third parties associated with my insurance.

And, every single time I go see a doctor, they put something wrong in the record. Every time. It's usually minor but not always. They've written that I'm allergic to "eggs" when I told them I am intolerant (not allergic) to wheat (gluten). So I've got an egg allergy in my record that's completely false. I've gotten bloodwork reports that said I was fasting when I was not and I told them so at the time.

Even if you completely tell the truth, there's the chance you will be caught in a "lie" because of the horrible mess our healthcare record keeping has become. What would happen if I told the FAA that I don't have diabetes if I applied for a medical? It's one reason I'm just not bothering anymore.

Maybe we need BlockChain technology, with no medical provider able to enter anything into our record without the patient's verified agreement.
 
If someone puts something false in your medical record and it causes problems for you, I wonder if that counts as libel?
 
ttexrbomb said:
I saw the report about the aviators who lied and were charged. It’s unfortunate.
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I think it's awesome. People lying to get bennies or lying to get a medical have no sympathy from me.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I just don’t understand the logic of someone telling the government that they are disabled in order to get a check from that government and then to tell the same government that they are not disabled in order to be able to gain a privilege (ie flying) from that government and then to blame that government when it catches them doing so.
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Very common in modern society. Everything is someone else's fault.
 
flyingron said:
As we discussed on the red board, the FAA has never felt as if they were constrained by obeying the privacy act. Stan had his lawsuit. I was close to filing mine, but lost interest now that I'm a bit further away from a federal court.
Click to expand...

Do it, until someone pushes their chit in thell just keep doing the same, also please name individuals too.
 
Palmpilot said:
If someone puts something false in your medical record and it causes problems for you, I wonder if that counts as libel?
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Interesting idea. I'm not sure though, whether libel requires intent to defame. In most cases, the false entries in medical records are not deliberately false - the codes are entered to get coverage for tests to evaluate the patient for POSSIBLE diagnoses. (Some, like Rushie's egg allergy, are likely just mistakes.) The problem is that the codes (or their translations into plain English) are not removed from the record once the diagnoses are ruled out. I have several such entries in my "active problem list" that my PCP's front office gives me every time I go there. Something like 3 of them would be disqualifying if I were applying for 3rd class. I have asked several times for these entries to be removed, and am always told that they will be, but they never are. Either people are lazy, are just not doing their jobs, or they really don't have the authority to make the changes.

In any case, I think the problem is actually structural rather than one of malicious intent.
 
Rushie said:
This.

Your problem with all those possible diagnoses being in the record is probably much more widespread than we can guess. I have not been able to remove a diagnosis of diabetes from my records, that one doctor wrongly put in there. When I confronted her she said, "well we don't have a code for pre-diabetes so I just use the diabetes one." I asked her to rectify it but she has been unwilling or unable to do so, I still get "how to manage your diabetes" brochures in the mail from all kinds of third parties associated with my insurance.

And, every single time I go see a doctor, they put something wrong in the record. Every time. It's usually minor but not always. They've written that I'm allergic to "eggs" when I told them I am intolerant (not allergic) to wheat (gluten). So I've got an egg allergy in my record that's completely false. I've gotten bloodwork reports that said I was fasting when I was not and I told them so at the time.

Even if you completely tell the truth, there's the chance you will be caught in a "lie" because of the horrible mess our healthcare record keeping has become. What would happen if I told the FAA that I don't have diabetes if I applied for a medical? It's one reason I'm just not bothering anymore.

Maybe we need BlockChain technology, with no medical provider able to enter anything into our record without the patient's verified agreement.
Click to expand...


AGREED!

I have had the same trouble getting my PCP to fix my records over the years. Repeated phone calls, emails requests during appointments, etc.

Here’s a hint...

Next time you have a bill due, try telling them it won’t be paid until the record is corrected. Tell this to the doctor, the office manager. and the billing person. Send a certified letter to that effect back with the bill. Chances are they’ll figure out a way to fix it.
 
Half Fast said:
Next time you have a bill due, try telling them it won’t be paid until the record is corrected. Tell this to the doctor, the office manager. and the billing person. Send a certified letter to that effect back with the bill. Chances are they’ll figure out a way to fix it.
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Not a chance. These places are businesses and they will play hardball right back if you try to, and they can afford better lawyers than you can. If you don't pay, they turn your account over to a collection agency and the end result is, you will be forced to pay, the bill plus a late penalty, possibly plus court costs if it comes to that. It won't happen right away, and you'll be given several chances to pay, but it will eventually happen. In the process, your credit rating is damaged.

If someone wants to try this, I say good luck. It would be a good test of my theory that only the doctor you saw once two years ago for the test has the authority to remove the diagnosis, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig.
 
azure said:
Not a chance. These places are businesses and they will play hardball right back if you try to, and they can afford better lawyers than you can. If you don't pay, they turn your account over to a collection agency and the end result is, you will be forced to pay, the bill plus a late penalty, possibly plus court costs if it comes to that. It won't happen right away, and you'll be given several chances to pay, but it will eventually happen. In the process, your credit rating is damaged.

If someone wants to try this, I say good luck. It would be a good test of my theory that only the doctor you saw once two years ago for the test has the authority to remove the diagnosis, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig.
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Worked for me and it got fixed.

They don’t want to fool with a collection agency when they can fix the record in about two minutes. And no, they can’t afford better lawyers than my insurance company who might begin to wonder what other “errors” might be in the records.

It’s trivial for the doctor to correct an error if it looks like it will be a bigger hassle not to fix it. They just have to know you are serious about wanting an acciuate record and will be a PITA otherwise. It’s also in the doctor’s best interest that the records are correct.
 
azure said:
Interesting idea. I'm not sure though, whether libel requires intent to defame. In most cases, the false entries in medical records are not deliberately false - the codes are entered to get coverage for tests to evaluate the patient for POSSIBLE diagnoses. (Some, like Rushie's egg allergy, are likely just mistakes.) The problem is that the codes (or their translations into plain English) are not removed from the record once the diagnoses are ruled out. I have several such entries in my "active problem list" that my PCP's front office gives me every time I go there. Something like 3 of them would be disqualifying if I were applying for 3rd class. I have asked several times for these entries to be removed, and am always told that they will be, but they never are. Either people are lazy, are just not doing their jobs, or they really don't have the authority to make the changes.
Click to expand...

It turns out that there is such a thing as libel that occurs through negligence.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/defamation-libel-slander-key-elements-claim.html
 
Half Fast said:
Worked for me and it got fixed.
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Glad it worked for you. :)

They don’t want to fool with a collection agency when they can fix the record in about two minutes. And no, they can’t afford better lawyers than my insurance company who might begin to wonder what other “errors” might be in the records.
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It might depend on the clinic or health system then. It's pretty clear that the clinic I go to is completely unable to make the changes, whether because they don't have the authority or because they're technically incompetent. Certainly it could be the latter.

As to the insurance company getting involved, seems they would first have to be convinced that the records ARE in error. How do you do that if you can't get them fixed in the first place? :dunno:

It’s trivial for the doctor to correct an error if it looks like it will be a bigger hassle not to fix it. They just have to know you are serious about wanting an acciuate record and will be a PITA otherwise. It’s also in the doctor’s best interest that the records are correct.
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As I said, that may and probably does depend on the clinic or the health system they belong to (if any). But my previous PCP (back in Michigan) used old-style paper records, so I have nothing to compare my current provider against. I do know that because my current clinic belongs to a regional health system, the hassle for them if I don't pay will be nil. They are simply not involved in the billing process, and all I've gotten trying to deal with the higher ups is the runaround.
 
Palmpilot said:
It turns out that there is such a thing as libel that occurs through negligence.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/defamation-libel-slander-key-elements-claim.html
Click to expand...
Thanks. Of the three conditions necessary for a private individual to be defamed, the only one that seems that it might apply is:
acted negligently in failing to ascertain whether the statement was true or false before making it.
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and I question whether it does apply, because the kind of statement we're discussing was made as provisional and then simply not retracted. I wonder if anyone has ever been held liable for a statement like that. Is neglecting to retract a false statement when its falsity becomes known the same thing as knowingly or negligently making that false statement?

But beyond that, from the definition of "defamation" in that article, I question whether the courts would hold that applying a false diagnosis to a person amounted to defamation, unless (maybe) the diagnosis was one that in the wider culture was associated with some character defect, like alcoholism or sexual deviancy. But something that simply made one ineligible to hold an FAA medical certificate, and especially if the person was not a revenue pilot?

But, of course, IANAL. It would be interesting to know what the legal experts here say.
 
I have no idea about the liability, yes that's a lawyer question, but even if I do get the doctor to correct it, getting the correction to cascade through all the insurance company databases, and other doctors that got my records, and third party databases out there is next to impossible. I highly doubt the front office is going to bother sending the correction out to everyone and even if they do, that it will update all the servers that contain my health info.

The problem can be very damaging. I'm trying to buy long term care insurance now. That diagnosis could disqualify me or result in higher premiums.
 
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