FAA 2020 Compliant ADSB-Out and Experimentals

lolachampcar

lolachampcar

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lolachampcar
I'm navigating the waters of both certified and experimental aircraft and ADSB-Out. By 2020 we are all supposed to have out compliant equipment installed. For certified aircraft, the FAA started by saying you could only do it through STC but relaxed that to allow Field Approval based on an existing STC.

The above approach to certified aircraft was done (at least in part) to make sure that the complete aircraft installation from antenna to antenna conforms to the required and transmitted latency and accuracy specifications.

My question is where does this leave experimental guys/gals? I'm currently flying one experimental with a full Skyview system. It uses a TSO'd Trig transponder module which is also used by Trig in a STC'd ADSB-out system with a Freeflight (and now Trig's own) GPS receiver. However, the Skyview installation uses a different pressure transducer for pressure altitude and an algorithm instead of a pressure switch for ground/air. How is the FAA going to respond to experimental aircraft using a non-STC'd or Field Approval based ADSB-Out system? This system will be transmitting integrity data without system testing to ensure it meets that integrity level.

Has anyone heard anything from the FAA on this?
 
yes, you must comply with the 2020 mandate.
Experimental aircraft can have certified/STC equipment installed.
 
Yes, those two responses are obvious but the question is-

Do experimental aircraft have to do something similar to a Field Approval based on an existing STC? There is no such thing as a Field Approval for experimental aircraft so, if something like a Field Approval is needed, what is that thing and where is it documented.
 
Side note. Does the transponder on an experimental aircraft already have to be certified like it does on a certified aircraft?
 
It is my understanding that radios and transponders in experimental aircraft have to have or meet TSO. I could very well be wrong here but that is what I have been led to believe.

Put differently, the Mode C ring requires TSO'd equipment to comply.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Side note. Does the transponder on an experimental aircraft already have to be certified like it does on a certified aircraft?
Click to expand...

Yes. There are no "experimental" transponders. The FAA requires that all of them meet TSO specifications or have a TSO.
 
Communication and navigation radios in certified aircraft however do not require TSO certification unless the aircraft is used for hire.

Given that a transponder requires certification under all circumstances, and that ADS-B is to be part of and/or eventually replace transponders, I would make a safe bet that a 2020 compliant ADS-B system will need to be certified in all circumstances, including experimental.
 
This thread goes along with something I've been wondering...

If an aircraft (like, say, a Jenny) doesn't have an electrical system, how is that aircraft going to be retrofitted with ADS-B out?

Is there going to be some sort of allowed APP that will substitute for it? Might have to install an antenna on the plane but the transponder and stuff could be run by a tablet or laptop.

Anyone know? Or are these aircraft going to be banned from controlled airspace because they can't be retrofitted? Which then begs the question, what will these aircraft do for vintage fly-ins at controlled fields?
 
Rob P. said:
This thread goes along with something I've been wondering...

If an aircraft (like, say, a Jenny) doesn't have an electrical system, how is that aircraft going to be retrofitted with ADS-B out?

Is there going to be some sort of allowed APP that will substitute for it? Might have to install an antenna on the plane but the transponder and stuff could be run by a tablet or laptop.

Anyone know? Or are these aircraft going to be banned from controlled airspace because they can't be retrofitted? Which then begs the question, what will these aircraft do for vintage fly-ins at controlled fields?
Click to expand...


Read the regulation.

No electrical system, no ADS-B required - just like transponders.
 
lolachampcar said:
My question is where does this leave experimental guys/gals? I'm currently flying one experimental with a full Skyview system. It uses a TSO'd Trig transponder module which is also used by Trig in a STC'd ADSB-out system with a Freeflight (and now Trig's own) GPS receiver. However, the Skyview installation uses a different pressure transducer for pressure altitude and an algorithm instead of a pressure switch for ground/air. How is the FAA going to respond to experimental aircraft using a non-STC'd or Field Approval based ADSB-Out system? This system will be transmitting integrity data without system testing to ensure it meets that integrity level.
Click to expand...

I think the answer is, you need to buy a GPS according to AC 20-165A. Call Dynon, ask them.

Also, try to make hand motions and chant to summon the spirit of John Collins, see
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72301

Of course you do not have to be such a HUEG fanboi of UAT as he is, but John at least lists the TSOs by number.
 
Your aircraft with no electrical system would be handled the same way it is handled now. Some Class A/B/C airspace will require special permission to enter with a plan. And some you will simply not be allowed into. Just like today.

The mandate only applies to aircraft in Class A/B/C airspace, or above 10,000msl. If you stay out of those areas, you don't even need it. Just like you don't need a transponder today either.
 
Started a thread on Dynon's forum as well :)

But, the issue is not limited to Dynon. The FAA will need to define "compliance" for experimental aircraft.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
...The mandate only applies to aircraft in Class A/B/C airspace, or above 10,000msl. If you stay out of those areas, you don't even need it. Just like you don't need a transponder today either.
Click to expand...

What about Mode C veil? Or are you talking specifically about aircraft with no electrical system?
 
Wait about 5.5 years. Then it is going to become interesting. You can expect the lawyers at the FAA to be churning out letters of clarification like roast peanuts at a ball game.
 
Silvaire said:
What about Mode C veil? Or are you talking specifically about aircraft with no electrical system?
Click to expand...
Yes including the veil. This is very simple, let me list it a different way:

Anywhere you are required to have a transponder today, you will be required to have certified ADS-B out in 2020. This includes class A/B/C airspace, inside a mode C veil, above the ceiling above a Class B, and above 10,000msl. Any other special/specified areas specified by notam, rules, etc (TFRs, SFRAs, FRZs, etc etc).

Anywhere you are not required to have a transponder today, you will not be required to have ADS-B out in 2020. This includes the rest of the NAS not listed above. Your basic class E & G below 10,000msl. Note, transponders / ADS-B are not required in class D airspace, which someone people mistakenly believe. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, stay in the middle of nowhere, and never need a transponder today, you can keep doing that and never need ADS-B.

If you are in an aircraft with no electrical system and want to fly into airspace that requires a transponder / ADS-B, the same procedures would apply in 2020 that apply today. You have to make whatever arrangements with ATC that you have to make in advance. They may grant it, or they may not allow it.
 
91.225
(a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
(1) Meets the requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and
(2) Meets the requirements of §91.227.
(b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
(1) Meets the requirements in—
(i) TSO-C166b; or
(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;
(2) Meets the requirements of §91.227.
(c) Operators with equipment installed with an approved deviation under §21.618 of this chapter also are in compliance with this section.
(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—


(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
 
A lot of pubs dont catch the 2500' thing. You don't need it if you stay within 2500' of the ground (below 10k MSL). Interesting. This essentially creates a new airspace "below 2500 feet".
 
coloradobluesky said:
A lot of pubs dont catch the 2500' thing. You don't need it if you stay within 2500' of the ground (below 10k MSL). Interesting. This essentially creates a new airspace "below 2500 feet".
Click to expand...
This applies to airspace above 10K but still below 2500 AGL to let you sneak over the mountain - the 2500 is separated by a comma not a semicolon. It's just like the Sport Pilot rule about 10K or 2000 AGL except that the sport pilot rule is written less unclear.
 
Good to straighten that out. So it excludes the requirement for ADSB tansponder in airspace below 2500' all the way up to FL18.
 
coloradobluesky said:
So it excludes the requirement for ADSB tansponder in airspace below 2500' all the way up to FL18.
Click to expand...

We have no airspace below 2,500 AGL that's above 18,000 MSL, except for just above Mount McKinley, Mount Saint Elias, Mount Foraker, Mount Bona, Mount Blackburn, and Mount Sanford, all in Alaska.
 
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