Exposing loved ones to the risks associated with GA

SixPapaCharlie said:
I don't want to be the reason my kids die in any situation but especially for my hobby. I don't have to fly. I do it 99% just for fun. I think it's different than if we were all to end up on an airliner that went down. This is just me joyriding and taking them with me at times when there's no one on the ground to watch them. My daughter on the other hand really wants to tag along. My son doesn't care so much about flying at all. But neither of them are old enough to really understand that this hobby of mine is capable of ending their lives
Click to expand...

You like ice cream, ever drag your kids along to get ice cream when it wasn't their idea to get ice cream? Is it OK to run to the ice cream stand to get ice cream and risk their lives then? It's just joy riding you don't NEED ice cream. They are more likely to die in a car crash in their lifetime than they are in a plane crash. Even though one activity has a higher probability while your doing it.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
What is interesting to me is the 85% due to pilot error number. That is a just a bit more than 5/6. So if we take the chances of dying per mile travelled in GA being about 6X that if driving a car (roughly correct I believe) that means that if the pilot doesn't make errors, the chances of dying per mile are about the same.

Of course, the chances of being in an accident in GA are about 1/6 that of driving, but about 36X more likely to be fatal.
Click to expand...
According to the risk analysis guys, risk is the product of hazard level and exposure...so if you spend 6 times as much time driving as you do flying, your likelihood of an accident is the same overall.
 
Don't air taxi and aerial tour operators fly the same category/class as most private pilots? How do their accident rates compare?
 
James331 said:
I've kinda come to a conclusion, GA is considerably SAFER than driving HOWEVER
Click to expand...

Not according to statistics. Disclaimer - some guy hit me at a red light on the way back from flying, so it doesn't seem driving is safer LOL
 
I'm an old guy and mostly just stay in the pattern and fly locally. I only fly when it is daylight and pretty nice out. When I take passengers, (my grandsons who are grown) I have mentioned the old thing about flying compared to motorcycles, BUT there is gravity and that sort of changes it. Bottom line, I don't take anyone who doesn't understand that it is more dangerous than watching TV. YMMV.
 
Datadriver said:
Not according to statistics. Disclaimer - some guy hit me at a red light on the way back from flying, so it doesn't seem driving is safer LOL
Click to expand...
I don't think it is all that easy to compare driving and flying safety. It is even difficult to come up with meaningful, blanket statements about just one or the other.

For example, if someone asks, "Is driving safe?" and then is presented with statistics that show deaths per driving hour, you should still have a lot of questions. How safe is driving at 12:00 AM on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston after the Red Sox just won a game, and half of Back Bay and Alston is driving home after celebrating in an Irish pub? How safe is driving to your brother's house, the next farm over, for lunch on a sunny Wednesday in April in rural Oklahoma?
 
Datadriver said:
It's much higher than 10x, more like 20x. https://www.quora.com/How-safe-is-general-aviation-versus-car-travel
Click to expand...

Just to clarify a bit further. It depends on how you make the comparison when saying "more risky". That comparison is on a per hour basis. If one figures GA planes travel faster than cars, then it drops down to about 6X more fatalities per mile traveled.

The underlying numbers might be accurate to within 25% or so since there is uncertainty in things like the number of total hours flown in the GA fleet.
 
I fly my wife and kids all the time. We use our plane for traveling to visit family on a regular basis from CA to AZ, UT, and ID. I fly friends on occasion but make sure they know the risks. I have also taken family members up for short flights. My wife has one rule when it comes to taking family members or friends up. I never have both parents fly with me at the same time. She knows the risks involved and in the event that things go wrong she wants to know that their kids won't be orphaned.

I do think about the risks when I have passengers with me, but then I have the same concerns when flying solo. I don't want to leave my wife a widow and my kids without their dad, even though I only have one kid left at home. I am fortunate to still have both my parents, my dad will be 76 this year. I hope to be in my family's lives for at least as long. So, I keep my plane well maintained, file flight plans and get briefings, use flight following, and try to make sound decisions I the air. I have made mistakes, and will continue to I am sure. We all do. Fortunately none have resulted in harm. Continuing to properly plan, use checklists, and fly conservatively will hopefully result in decades of flying to come for myself and my passengers.
 
Datadriver said:
Not according to statistics. Disclaimer - some guy hit me at a red light on the way back from flying, so it doesn't seem driving is safer LOL
Click to expand...

There's tons stats doesn't cover, I also noticed you ether didn't read or just didn't quote the rest of my post which backed up they statement lol
 
arkvet said:
I often wonder what % of pilots killed in GA accidents due to pilot error had previously made the statement "Most GA accidents are pilot error. Don't inadvertently go VMC to IMC, don't run out of fuel, etc... and it's pretty safe."?

Easy to say "don't be that guy" but the truth is most of the "victims" likely thought they wouldn't be.
Click to expand...

I think the way to prevent this is to be humble. Not just paying lip service to it but actually recognizing our mortality and respecting the environment we work/play in.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Just to clarify a bit further. It depends on how you make the comparison when saying "more risky". That comparison is on a per hour basis. If one figures GA planes travel faster than cars, then it drops down to about 6X more fatalities per mile traveled.

The underlying numbers might be accurate to within 25% or so since there is uncertainty in things like the number of total hours flown in the GA fleet.
Click to expand...
With these stats it's worth noting that while the raw stats don't look as good, with flying one is much more in control of your own destiny. Random bad stuff can still happen, but the vast majority of fatal accidents are the result of pilot error.

All the people I know killed in cars were killed by other people that screwed up (someone hit them).

The people I know killed in planes made some error themselves (base to final stall for example).

On the whole flying is likely safer than driving, but it's much much less forgiving to mistakes and hence the stats. But one can take some comfort in knowing that you are mostly in control of those mistakes--unlike driving where you are very much at the mercy of other idiots on the road.
 
The most dangerous part of flying for me is the drive to the airport through the sketchy 'hood.
 
jsterner said:
.....Bottom line, I don't take anyone who doesn't understand that it is more dangerous than watching TV. YMMV.
Click to expand...

With the cr ap they're feeding us today I'm not so sure! The tele is doing far more long term damage fo sho.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative or combative here I'm just seriously asking the question. Where did you get the 97% statistic? I've been following Ron's statistics on this board for a while and it seems far lower than that. Again not trying to argue and I feel the need to clarify that multiple times since this is poa
Click to expand...

84.865% of statistics are simply made-up.
 
On this site, people seem to enjoy creating threads about accidents. In reality, they're very rare. Look at Oshkosh. How many flights were in there, and how many accidents?

So many people I work with think I'm crazy because I fly. I think they're crazy for going home, making dinner, and watching TV until they fall asleep. Life is to be enjoyed. Get out there.
 
CC268 said:
How do you guys handle the possible risk and responsibility of taking your own loved ones up (kids, friends, wife, etc)? Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
Click to expand...

Statistically, the risk is about the same as riding a motorcycle. The difference is that in aviation, you are MUCH more in control of the outcome. On the motorcycle, it's usually the other guy that gets you. In aviation, it's usually a chain of mistakes YOU make that gets you.

So, I fly. A lot. My family isn't with me for more than 1/3 of my hours at most. I stay proficient, and because of that, they stay safe when they're with me. I don't feel guilty at all about that level of risk.
 
To further screw things up, motorcycle deaths have went up the past five years while general aviation fatal accidents are down almost 20% (5 straight years of a downward trend, not an outlier).

So even everyone's favorite cliche may need some updating.

I think I'm gonna agree with those that say there's very little ability to actually access general aviation risks compared to any vehicle on a road. Too many variables that either aren't reliable or aren't directly relatable while each individual pilot's situation is so different as to make any overall statement suspect.

For example, how safe is driving on the highway compared to flying? We can't really know, but it's a reasonale bet that general aviation and cars begin to close ranks when you weed out the millions of miles driven at 20mph in major cities where no real risk exists.
 
Last edited:
Bonchie said:
To further screw things up, motorcycle deaths have went up the past five years while general aviation fatal accidents are down almost 20% (5 straight years of a downward trend, not an outlier)....
Click to expand...
Are those numbers per hour, per mile, or just total numbers per year?
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
Are those numbers per hour, per mile, or just total numbers per year?
Click to expand...

The Motorcycle number is per 100k miles driven, the second is per 100k hours flown.

That wasn't a direct comparison to come up with some correlated number but just a trend comparison.

The lack of ability to have a reliable comparison is kind of the point. Motorcycles only carry 1-2 for instance while GA often carries many more people in a single aircraft. So more motorcycles accidents have to happen to reach the same death rate as there are no "10 died" situations for motorcycles like GA. Given that, are we concerned with the risks of our individual flight or a fatal rate skewed by larger aircraft that still only represent one crash?

I'm sort of talking in circles on purpose trying to show how unreliable generalized comparisons are.
 
Last edited:
Bonchie said:
I'm sort of talking in circles on purpose trying to show how unreliable generalized comparisons are.
Click to expand...

The public perception is that GA is a relatively dangerous mode of travel. I don't think we're likely to change that perception without data. And as an engineer, I have found that ball-park data are better than no data at all.
 
Palmpilot said:
The public perception is that GA is a relatively dangerous mode of travel. I don't think we're likely to change that perception without data. And as an engineer, I have found that ball-park data are better than no data at all.
Click to expand...

Would you agree or disagree that is it a dangerous mode of travel?
 
Palmpilot said:
The public perception is that GA is a relatively dangerous mode of travel. I don't think we're likely to change that perception without data. And as an engineer, I have found that ball-park data are better than no data at all.
Click to expand...

Judging whether it's even ballpark is nearly impossible.

It'll never matter what the stats say anyway. Most people will always see small planes as dangerous and scary just like many people don't care that airliners are incredibly safe when assessing their fears.
 
Bonchie said:
Judging whether it's even ballpark is nearly impossible.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

It'll never matter what the stats say anyway. Most people will always see small planes as dangerous and scary just like many people don't care that airliners are incredibly safe when assessing their fears.
Click to expand...

Probably true, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because this thread is about the ethics of exposing passengers to risk, not about the public perception of GA. However, the subject of informing passengers about the risk came up, and it's really tough to do that in any meaningful way without talking about what data there is, however imperfect it may be. Just telling them that the most dangerous part of the flight is the drive to the airport, or that the data are not good enough to even have the conversation, don't seem like adequate responses to the ethical issue.
 
Well thanks to everyone for contributing to the conversation it's been interesting
 
Palmpilot said:
I disagree.



Probably true, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because this thread is about the ethics of exposing passengers to risk, not about the public perception of GA. However, the subject of informing passengers about the risk came up, and it's really tough to do that in any meaningful way without talking about what data there is, however imperfect it may be. Just telling them that the most dangerous part of the flight is the drive to the airport, or that the data are not good enough to even have the conversation, don't seem like adequate responses to the ethical issue.
Click to expand...

Ethics? LOL Ethics is even more subjective. I find the normalization and wide acceptance of distracted (texting/drinking) driving in this Country morally deplorable; society trumps me (<--pun very much intended :D ) however. It's a staple of the American carnage. Sure, people wail when it's their loved ones on a casket, but otherwise? Crickets.

And people want me to have a mea culpa moment every time I decide to take my family on a trip on my personal plane, flying over non-participants' heads as a consequence? Fat chance Jack. The day drivers give me that courtesy then maybe I'll exercise contrition about my so-called excesses.Your perception is your reality. Leave your ethics out of mine. ;):D
 
hindsight2020 said:
Ethics? LOL Ethics is even more subjective. I find the normalization and wide acceptance of distracted (texting/drinking) driving in this Country morally deplorable; society trumps me (<--pun very much intended :D ) however. It's a staple of the American carnage. Sure, people wail when it's their loved ones on a casket, but otherwise? Crickets.

And people want me to have a mea culpa moment every time I decide to take my family on a trip on my personal plane, flying over non-participants' heads as a consequence? Fat chance Jack. The day drivers give me that courtesy then maybe I'll exercise contrition about my so-called excesses.Your perception is your reality. Leave your ethics out of mine. ;):D
Click to expand...
"My" ethics? Hey, I'm not the one who started the thread!
 
paflyer said:
And 97.3% of those are made up to dispute other made up statistics.
Click to expand...
And the great thing about calling the statistics made-up is that then we can believe whatever we WANT to believe! ;)
 
Palmpilot said:
I disagree.
Click to expand...

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Every method I've seen to try to correlate a comparison is shaky at best and full of caveats depending on the kind of flying you actually do, where you fly, and what you fly.

Probably true, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because this thread is about the ethics of exposing passengers to risk, not about the public perception of GA. However, the subject of informing passengers about the risk came up, and it's really tough to do that in any meaningful way without talking about what data there is, however imperfect it may be. Just telling them that the most dangerous part of the flight is the drive to the airport, or that the data are not good enough to even have the conversation, don't seem like adequate responses to the ethical issue.
Click to expand...

Meh, I don't feel the ethical need to give passengers a "dangers of flying light GA" speech unless they ask about it. If they do, I'll answer as best I can and also tell them how we are mitigating risk to avoid the most common causes of fatal accidents. I tend to believe that flying is largely as safe as you make it outside of a few unavoidable situations. I feel like I'm more proactive in mitigating risk by believing that then dwelling on very imperfect statistical comparisons and just hoping for the best.
 
Last edited:
CC268 said:
I am sure this conversation will stir up all sorts of gnashing of teeth, but I still <3 PoA.
How do you guys handle the possible risk and responsibility of taking your own loved ones up (kids, friends, wife, etc)? Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
Click to expand...

Never EVER say 'Here, hold my beer' and you'll be fine.
 
Doug F said:
Never EVER say 'Here, hold my beer' and you'll be fine.
Click to expand...
You re absolutely right. Real pilots don't need someone else to hold their beer while pulling off a stunt. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top